No guest shooting, is this normal?

[Demonic69]

My brother and I went out Thursday morning for our first shoot in a long time. I've got my S2, he normally just shoots under my supervision. We've shot several clay grounds but felt like trying somewhere new (plus most places are closed on a Thursday). Drove for an hour an 1/4 to a modern looking, large clay ground. Went to check in and the lass asked if we both had our tickets. I explained I had by my brother shoots under my guidance. She said they don't do that there and that he'd need to go out with an instructor. When asked if they'd not got the Police exemption she responded with "No, we just choose not to". It wasn't the warmest of welcomes and I doubt I'll be going back there in a hurry.

I'm half convinced it's because were weren't wearing full tweed or our competition clay clothing. We ended up and Nottingham and District and it was lovely. The staff were all very friendly, the atmosphere relaxed and the setup was enjoyable, so much so we shot 2 rounds of sporting

Are there many other grounds that don't allow non-cert shooters? Aside from selling instructor time I'm struggling to see the justification. It can't be easy to get new shooters into the sport if they either have to apply for their cert or spend money on lessons before they've decided how they feel.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Most grounds would appreciate a phone call enquiry before you just turn up. That alone would have saved you 2 1/2 hours driving.

Why has your brother not applied for his SGC?

[dead eye alan]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Most grounds would appreciate a phone call enquiry before you just turn up. That alone would have saved you 2 1/2 hours driving.

Why has your brother not applied for his SGC?

correct answer.

[Demonic69]

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Most grounds would appreciate a phone call enquiry before you just turn up. That alone would have saved you 2 1/2 hours driving.

Why has your brother not applied for his SGC?

We checked online and I even called to ask if I needed to book. Just didn't think to ask if they required all shooters to be licensed as I've not come across it before.

He was advised to wait by SYP due to COVID delays. It should be going in any time now

[Demonic69]

3 minutes ago, dead eye alan said:

correct answer.

Wrong.

The question wasn't "who's fault is it?". Got to love the toxic attitude of shooters, start apportioning blame to fellow shooters straight away. Notice how I didn't name the ground?

Out of the 6 grounds I've shot at in the last couple of years none of them have had an issue with guests. I've learned my lesson and will ask the next time I try somewhere new, as I did with N&DGC.

So my question, is this normal? Do you have a clue as to the justification? Also do you guys know of other grounds that don't allow guests?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Perhaps they have had a bad experience with someone who took a "melon" along with them?

[Vince Green]

At our local club, the only one i am a member, no SGC no shoot unless with an "instructor" and they have their exemption certificate framed on the wall but I have never actually read it.

they don't charge for a lesson, the novices just have to be accompanied by a somebody official. Possibly more to do with the insurance? 

[Scully]

Their loss. In my experience no, it isn’t normal. I have never been asked to show my ticket at any clay shooting ground I’ve shot at during all the years I’ve been shooting. 
 

[Demonic69]

12 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Perhaps they have had a bad experience with someone who took a "melon" along with them?

Possibly yeah. I could understand if they'd had a bad experience.

11 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

At our local club, the only one i am a member, no SGC no shoot unless with an "instructor" and they have their exemption certificate framed on the wall but I have never actually read it.

they don't charge for a lesson, the novices just have to be accompanied by a somebody official. Possibly more to do with the insurance? 

That makes sense. TBH I'd happily have some form of induction as a first time visitor. Just having a cert doesn't make a shooter safe, probably less so in some cases.

When I shot PSG we had to attend the safety course before we could start shooting at other clubs. I was a bit surprised when I started clay shooting that anyone with an S2 could just turn up and be expected to be safe. It's good that we're trusted for a change though.

[deershooter]

That will be Orston shooting ground ,nowhere near the place it was under these owners it was one of the best friendly grounds about but not anymore . They have such a high turn over of staff it’s unreal .I don’t think any one who worked there three years ago is still there

 Had a really good Wednesday crew of members shooting with lots of OAP’s until one of the owners said “ I hate these old ******* all they do is shoot one round and moan all the time” lots of people have found other places to go  

[timps]

This question has cropped up more and more recently on several forums including this one. It seems that in certain areas the chief of police is now insisting on instruction of some sort to make use of their exemption.

As the section 11(6) exemption is issued by the Chief of police and it has recommended guidelines of issue, those guidelines of issue can vary from force to force and even ground to ground.

I know at MCSC you have to sign the exemption form or show your licence as the local police have made it quite clear they are in breach if they don’t.

https://northyorkshire.police.uk/what-we-do/licensing/firearms-licensing/section116-exemption-clay/

 

Regarding the above link they state:-

“All uncertified shooters are to be properly supervised, by an authorised person, throughout the shoot and receive instruction before any weapon handling takes place.”

As a certificate holder you are considered an authorised person under the firearms act however the properly supervised or instruction is the sticking point for some FEO’s as they insist that it is someone the ground approves of rather than being a random certificate holder.

So to answer your question with the increase in posts about the subject it does seem more common or alternatively you are all going to the same ground.

Edited April 7, 2021 by timps

[Revo]

Have you tried park lodge .not far from Sheffield .motorway 3/4 of the way 

[Demonic69]

2 minutes ago, Revo said:

Have you tried park lodge .not far from Sheffield .motorway 3/4 of the way 

That's our usual ground mate, always have a good day there  I fancied the new ground because we'd not shot there and they have a gun in stock I wanted to try before I buy. Doveridge and Cockett have always been great too.

[JTaylor91]

If it is Orston it says on the website that they don’t allow cert holders to accompany non cert holders. It’s the reason me and the other half didn’t bother going.

[deershooter]

11 minutes ago, timps said:

This question has cropped up more and more recently on several forums including this one. It seems that in certain areas the chief of police is now insisting on instruction of some sort to make use of their exemption.

As the section 11(6) exemption is issued by the Chief of police and it has recommended guidelines of issue, those guidelines of issue can vary from force to force and even ground to ground.

I know at MCSC you have to sign the exemption form or show your licence as the local police have made it quite clear they are in breach if they don’t.

https://northyorkshire.police.uk/what-we-do/licensing/firearms-licensing/section116-exemption-clay/

 

Regarding the above link they state:-

“All uncertified shooters are to be properly supervised, by an authorised person, throughout the shoot and receive instruction before any weapon handling takes place.”

As a certificate holder you are considered an authorised person under the firearms act however the properly supervised or instruction is the sticking point for some FEO’s as they insist that it is someone the ground approves of rather than being a random certificate holder.

So to answer your question with the increase in posts about the subject it does seem more common or alternatively you are all going to the same ground.

With this ground it’s nothing to do with the police it’s the owners decision,then it’s his ground he can do what he wants . The problem doesn’t help membership in the old days people had a lesson and safety briefing for £25 on skeet after 6 weeks they felt confident enough to shoot skeet on there own ,this progressed to shooting other disciplines becoming a member and shooting more . Now at £60 for a lesson you have to find about £400 for 6 lessons and membership the East Midlands isn’t full of high wage jobs and most people don’t have this amount of disposable income to start a hobby .

[Demonic69]

7 minutes ago, timps said:

This question has cropped up more and more recently on several forums including this one. It seems that in certain areas the chief of police is now insisting on instruction of some sort to make use of their exemption.

As the section 11(6) exemption is issued by the Chief of police and it has recommended guidelines of issue, those guidelines of issue can vary from force to force and even ground to ground.

I know at MCSC you have to sign the exemption form or show your licence as the local police have made it quite clear they are in breach if they don’t.

https://northyorkshire.police.uk/what-we-do/licensing/firearms-licensing/section116-exemption-clay/

 

Regarding the above link they state:-

“All uncertified shooters are to be properly supervised, by an authorised person, throughout the shoot and receive instruction before any weapon handling takes place.”

As a certificate holder you are considered an authorised person under the firearms act however the properly supervised or instruction is the sticking point for some FEO’s as they insist that it is someone the ground approves of rather than being a random certificate holder.

So to answer your question with the increase in posts about the subject it does seem more common or alternatively you are all going to the same ground.

With the rise in promatic style traps it makes sense that shooters are getting less instruction and guidance. Originally we'd go round with one of the ground staff who could supervise, now we're off on our own. I wonder if we'll see a rise in inductions and mandatory training? 

[Old farrier]

To be fair 

some one turns up to shoot a stranger to them and the ground asks to shoot with there friend who dosent have a sgc 

exemption or not it’s a bit of a non starter if you look at it from the other side 

hust my thought 

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

At our local club, the only one i am a member, no SGC no shoot unless with an "instructor" and they have their exemption certificate framed on the wall but I have never actually read it.

they don't charge for a lesson, the novices just have to be accompanied by a somebody official. Possibly more to do with the insurance? 

Spot on.  They do not know what wassocks are going to turn up and need to consequently be very careful who they allow to shoot. I am surprised that unknown SGC holders would be allowed to just turn up as an unknown to the club and not expect to be supervised on the first outing.  Been there done that over many years of esperience and have seen the whole spectrum of Cert holders be it SGC FAC DSC1  DSC2 whatever and some have been seriously dangerous  resulting in me kicking them off the shoot.

[timps]

39 minutes ago, Demonic69 said:

I wonder if we'll see a rise in inductions and mandatory training? 

It is how the individual FEO is going to interpret it all, that is the biggest problem.

Some will interpret the ‘authorised person’ not as a certificate holder as it is described under the firearms act but as in section 11A of the firearms act which is to do with borrowing a shotgun.

Under this section a non certificate holder can only use it in the presence persons authorised by the occupier in writing which in the case of a clay ground would probably only be an instructor.

It is completely the wrong interpretation in my opinion for any ground with an exemption in place but I can see that being the direction some FEO’s will be  wrongly insisting on.

I do get the problem some grounds have as I have witnessed it myself, clueless bloke gets his first shotgun then takes 6 blokes from the pub to the clay ground, they were ultimately told to leave but not before scaring everyone half to death with incompetent gun handling.

I also know the experienced shooters side, paying for an instructor who knows less or no more that he does to teach a family member is not fun either.

[Smokersmith]

No doubt a PITA, but ultimately their ground, their rules. As some have said ... a bad experience or two will have more than likely shaped policy.

[Demonic69]

5 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

No doubt a PITA, but ultimately their ground, their rules. As some have said ... a bad experience or two will have more than likely shaped policy.

I'm happy with that TBH. The attitude of the staff, rather than the rule is what's put me off going back. I'm not being sneered at for not wearing head-to-toe tweed or a skeet vest with my name on the back (regardless of not being in a team).

I was just surprised with it being such a large ground, when all the other's I've shot at have been fine.

I did find it on their website in the end though, you just have to scroll all the way past the relevant shooting information, past the bit about the cafe and competitions, booking forms etc. That'll teach me to not read the full site

 

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

At our local club, the only one i am a member, no SGC no shoot unless with an "instructor" and they have their exemption certificate framed on the wall but I have never actually read it.

they don't charge for a lesson, the novices just have to be accompanied by a somebody official. Possibly more to do with the insurance? 

Does that assume that you're OK if you've got an SGC, regardless of competency? I'd be happy to do an induction with an instructor for any new ground.

When I first started clays I expected some sort of CPSA competency card or similar, same as the UKPSA.

[Vince Green]

32 minutes ago, Demonic69 said:

Does that assume that you're OK if you've got an SGC, regardless of competency? I'd be happy to do an induction with an instructor for any new ground.

When I first started clays I expected some sort of CPSA competency card or similar, same as the UKPSA.

I think a lot of grounds would want to see you shoot before they let you loose on your own. Even if they don't do it formally you can be sure there are people watching you very closely

with any new ground you really need to be shown round, they all have their individual ways of doing things. Not just about safety. 

[Centrepin]

Have you ever been at a ground when a cert holder has turned up with half a dozen mates in tow. Semi auto, normally camouflaged, fires 3 shots at every clay and their shouting is generally louder than the gun. If you're behind them it takes forever unless you bypass the stand. If you're in front you jump the next two stands to get some distance.

Or maybe I'm just unlucky cos it's happened to me twice. 

[Vince Green]

7 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

Have you ever been at a ground when a cert holder has turned up with half a dozen mates in tow. Semi auto, normally camouflaged, fires 3 shots at every clay and their shouting is generally louder than the gun. If you're behind them it takes forever unless you bypass the stand. If you're in front you jump the next two stands to get some distance.

Or maybe I'm just unlucky cos it's happened to me twice. 

Yes I have seen that, also seen people trying to hit clays by firing from the hip. Some grounds I think are more interested in taking their money than anything else and turn a blind eye 

[Rob85]

4 hours ago, timps said:

This question has cropped up more and more recently on several forums including this one. It seems that in certain areas the chief of police is now insisting on instruction of some sort to make use of their exemption.

As the section 11(6) exemption is issued by the Chief of police and it has recommended guidelines of issue, those guidelines of issue can vary from force to force and even ground to ground.

I know at MCSC you have to sign the exemption form or show your licence as the local police have made it quite clear they are in breach if they don’t.

https://northyorkshire.police.uk/what-we-do/licensing/firearms-licensing/section116-exemption-clay/

 

Regarding the above link they state:-

“All uncertified shooters are to be properly supervised, by an authorised person, throughout the shoot and receive instruction before any weapon handling takes place.”

As a certificate holder you are considered an authorised person under the firearms act however the properly supervised or instruction is the sticking point for some FEO’s as they insist that it is someone the ground approves of rather than being a random certificate holder.

So to answer your question with the increase in posts about the subject it does seem more common or alternatively you are all going to the same ground.

Weapon handling....I don't know how else to describe a sporting shotgun but the term "weapon" doesn't sit easily with me. A weapon in my opinion is something you have with the intention of injuring or killing a person.

As far as an "authorised person" goes, authorised for what? That could be taken to mean someone who is authorised to have a shotgun, for example a certificate holder. Or it could mean someone the boss of the range has authorised to supervise a shooter... that doesn't necessarily mean that they are a certificate holder themselves, merely that someone on the range is going to watch what you're doing and take money off you for the privilege.

Ranges on a tight budget or ranges that have an attached club will do anything to make people cough up extra money.

Just my opinions of course