Electric vehicle charging

[Townie]

Drove M25/M40 on the Friday of the bank holiday weekend.

In gentle need (thankfully as it turned out) of a pee stop, but the queue of cars into the final M25 service station and the next two on the M40 was practically back onto the motorway turnoff. 
 

What on earth will happen when we're all driving electric vehicles? I hope the service stations have serious plans for more chargers. I'm going to stick to petrol as long as possible.

[Medic1281]

I love my electric car, and it’s charged at home most nights so I rarely charge when out and about. The trick seems to be to drive a couple of miles from the motorway, usually to a local supermarket and charge up there. Unless in Wales, just don’t bother with Wales if you have an electric car, the charging infrastructure is non existent!!

[Centrepin]

I ordered a Toyota RAV4 4x4 hybrid. Delivery in October. It's self charging and only uses the 2.5 petrol engine if you're above 40mph or towing.

Maybe.........this is the way forward?

[Mungler]

For the first time I saw a charge point in london hanging off a street lamp - I took a photo of it I was so taken a back as to the way forward.

[oowee]

51 minutes ago, Mungler said:

For the first time I saw a charge point in london hanging off a street lamp - I took a photo of it I was so taken a back as to the way forward.

The vast majority of street lighting infrastructure cannot support EV charging unfortunately.

Judging from the Teslas on the motorway the speed of driving will reduce as we get more on the road.

1 hour ago, Centrepin said:

I ordered a Toyota RAV4 4x4 hybrid. Delivery in October. It's self charging and only uses the 2.5 petrol engine if you're above 40mph or towing.

Maybe.........this is the way forward?

These look good and I see some at 300bhp.

[udderlyoffroad]

3 hours ago, Townie said:

Drove M25/M40 on the Friday of the bank holiday weekend.

Good god man, why would you do that to yourself?

3 hours ago, Townie said:

What on earth will happen when we're all driving electric vehicles?

You will avoid motorway services as a place to 'fill up' unless you really have to, presumably in the same manner as you currently do with your ICE vehicle.

The shift in thinking* that people need to get their head round with EVs, is that you leave home, every morning with a 'full tank' as it were, because the fuel station is at home.  With usable ranges increasing all the time, all but the longest of journeys in a UK context are possible without range anxiety.

Frankly, if the entire country switched to EVs tomorrow, range wouldn't be a concern for 95% of drivers.  That's not to say there aren't other problems, of course, but I find this range anxiety strange when you look at actual numbers of miles driven by the average car.  The biggest problem of course being getting the flow of electrons into the vehicle in the first place if you have to park it on the street, and managing the grid so we don't end up with a ad-break-during-Eric-and-Ernie level power spikes.

Anyway...

Seems Rivian have finally released their pickup to (the US) market, and Ford is knocking out fully electric F150s.  We'll see how those hold up in good-ol' boy country towing heavy loads.

*For once, that would have been a legitimate chance to use the phrase 'paradigm shift', but it would have doubtless caused much harrumphing from the PWeratti, and spilling of lit tobacco from the pipe.

[Centrepin]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

 

These look good and I see some at 300bhp.

According to Toyota mine is 215BHP. I took one for a test drive but unfortunately didn't have the opportunity to exceed 40mph. I was stunned at its driveability on electric as I've never considered this before. 

I'm planning on towing the caravan for a week away as soon as I get it.

I've opted for the toyota fixed towbar to maintain warranty with the electrics. This is something anyone wanting to tow with them will have to factor in.

[Westward]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Frankly, if the entire country switched to EVs tomorrow, range wouldn't be a concern for 95% of drivers.  That's not to say there aren't other problems, of course, but I find this range anxiety strange when you look at actual numbers of miles driven by the average car. 

I think you mean 95% of journeys rather than drivers and FWIW I agree, but I stand by my comments in earlier threads that the 2030 ban is unachievable and will slip to at least 2040.

I've no idea how many households have to park on the street or in designated parking areas but it's a lot and charging points on street lights at 50 yard intervals is no solution.

Last week, Mrs W and I drove to visit our new granddaughter. There is no charging facility within miles of where they live and they have no on property parking. The round trip, including diversions due to the current craze for road closures and roadworks, was over 250 miles. I've sent Boris a text asking him to explain how or when it's possible to make the trip in a Nissan Leaf but he hasn't answered yet.

[Centrepin]

I think you're right in 95% of car journeys. 

What about commercial vehicles? I think it'll be an awfully long time before we see self charging lorries that can haul 44 tons.

As for cars, forget these that need charging, things evolve.

Next generation are self charging.

Buy a car, don't exceed 40mph, never use any fuel. That's 95% of my journeys. 

I'll be interested to see how my 3-5 year lease goes and just how much petrol fuel I actually need. My new kerbside weight is quoted at 1775 kgs. GVW at 2215 kgs. Max tow 1650 kgs.

[Yellow Bear]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Frankly, if the entire country switched to EVs tomorrow, range wouldn't be a concern for 95% of drivers.  That's not to say there aren't other problems, of course, but I find this range anxiety strange when you look at actual numbers of miles driven by the average car.  The biggest problem of course being getting the flow of electrons into the vehicle in the first place if you have to park it on the street, and managing the grid so we don't end up with a ad-break-during-Eric-and-Ernie level power spikes.

There is also the problem that many properties have at best a 60 amp supply and running a 32 amp supply to a charging point (minimum 6mm but more likely 10mm cable to allow for volt drop) may prove extremely difficult if not impossible at an affordable cost.  (this is based on the recommended 7kw charger)  

[udderlyoffroad]

38 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

There is also the problem that many properties have at best a 60 amp supply and running a 32 amp supply to a charging point (minimum 6mm but more likely 10mm cable to allow for volt drop) may prove extremely difficult if not impossible at an affordable cost.

There is actually a gubermint subsidy available for this, upto £500 IIRC.

I have wrangled a 10mm^2 cable underneath my drive afore it was laid - as it would have been daft not to given the cost, so yes I understand it can be difficult/costly if you have no DIY inclinations.*  But modern chargers are capable of regulating themselves, and monitoring the power sucked from the grid, so even on a 60 amp supply you should be able to run a 7kW charger, albeit charging will be inhibited should you shower.

My Tesla-owning mate has managed to get by without completely, and just charges off a 13 A plug from an outside socket.  Obviously lockdown has helped here, but he quoted 3 days to a full charge.  I would find that somewhat irritating, but he's happy to go to a supermarket and 'top up' with 30mins of charge if necessary.  Personally, that would drive me spare, I treat supermarket trips like senile presidents treat Afghanistan, get out as quickly as possible.

*Yes, I know, a trained sparkie needs to come to terminate and test...

 

3 hours ago, Centrepin said:

Next generation are self charging.

You're either implying breaking the second law of thermodynamics, or generating electricity from another energy source.  Which one had you in mind?

 

2 hours ago, Centrepin said:

What about commercial vehicles? I think it'll be an awfully long time before we see self charging lorries that can haul 44 tons.

The energy density which is required to replace diesel is currently unachievable.  Even assuming you save significant weight by not having heavy cast iron engines and large transmissions, you're way off.  This is why the Tesla Truck is so much BS, there is no battery technology out there or predicted that makes it practicable.  Plenty of videos on Youtube explain it better than I can.

Now local delivery in the 7.5 Te class, that's more realistic.  Already seeing working prototypes.

 

[armsid]

Saw an article by Danny Hopkins editor of Practical Classics about the road research laborotary running electric driverless cars on a new stretch of the M4 between Newbury and Reading a nine mile stretch the cable was sunk in the road and the cars picked up the signal The year? 1961 if you google road reserch lab it comes up The cars a mini, citroen DS and standard estate If we had continued with this how far ahead would GB be now?

[Stonepark]

People don't buy a car based on average use or range figures, the same as people don't buy 12b shotguns for the average load of 1oz but for the ability to be multipurpose and fire up to 50g, otherwise you would all still be shooting 2 or 2.5 inch chambered guns.

 

If everybody had an electric car tomorrow, both power stations and power grid would fail as they are not enough in the former and not robust and balanced enough in the latter.

 

Only around 17% of energy used in the UK is electric of which half is natural gas powered, the remainder being mainly nuclear and renewables, for the other 83% of energy used in this country is oil and gas for transport and heating, so we would need to replicate our current power stations and power grid at least 5.5x (ignoring CCGT but if included, this would be 10x current nuclear and renewables output) to account for non gas electric production, electric cars and heating, replacing natural gas, petrol\diesel and natural gas respectively and they want this done by 2030, 2040, 2050 at latest..?

 

Not a hope in.....

[Newbie to this]

6 hours ago, Stonepark said:

People don't buy a car based on average use or range figures, the same as people don't buy 12b shotguns for the average load of 1oz but for the ability to be multipurpose and fire up to 50g, otherwise you would all still be shooting 2 or 2.5 inch chambered guns.

 

If everybody had an electric car tomorrow, both power stations and power grid would fail as they are not enough in the former and not robust and balanced enough in the latter.

 

Only around 17% of energy used in the UK is electric of which half is natural gas powered, the remainder being mainly nuclear and renewables, for the other 83% of energy used in this country is oil and gas for transport and heating, so we would need to replicate our current power stations and power grid at least 5.5x (ignoring CCGT but if included, this would be 10x current nuclear and renewables output) to account for non gas electric production, electric cars and heating, replacing natural gas, petrol\diesel and natural gas respectively and they want this done by 2030, 2040, 2050 at latest..?

 

Not a hope in.....

Perhaps it time they stopped building flats (sorry apartments) and started building more nuclear power stations.

Or just accept that electric vehicles are NOT the answer and move on.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Newbie to this

[Centrepin]

10 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

 

You're either implying breaking the second law of thermodynamics, or generating electricity from another energy source.  Which one had you in mind

 

I have absolutely no idea. I just know I don't need to plug it in.

 

Toyota know more than I do. 

[Windswept]

14 hours ago, Centrepin said:

As for cars, forget these that need charging, things evolve.

Next generation are self charging.

Buy a car, don't exceed 40mph, never use any fuel. That's 95% of my journeys.

As I understand it this is old technology where the petrol engine charges the battery along with energy recovery from breaking etc. So, once the battery is exhausted the petrol engine will run, even if you never exceed 40.

[pigeon controller]

Not sure how I would get on with my normal drive down to Greece? It would take a lot longer than the normal two and a half days.

[oowee]

2 hours ago, Centrepin said:

I have absolutely no idea. I just know I don't need to plug it in.

 

Toyota know more than I do. 

I am starting to look at these now. Not sure re the cvt gearbox need to drive one i guess.

Edited September 3, 2021 by oowee

[udderlyoffroad]

4 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Or just accept that electric vehicles are NOT the answer and move on.

They very much are the answer, an electric motor and its associated ability to delete big, heavy, complicated transmissions are the future.

What exactly powers these motors is the tricky part.  And there will be no one-size-fits-all answer to this.  Just the same as you don't tend to see diesel-powered Ferraris.

For suburban deliveries, probably batteries*.  For long distance rigs, possibly hydrogen or just accept Diesel for a while longer.

*Braces for remark about 'milk floats' - yes, my dad told me about them.  Mind, he grew up in the rough area of Liverpool.  Grandad was a tail-gunner on a milk float.

 

2 hours ago, Centrepin said:

I have absolutely no idea. I just know I don't need to plug it in.

 

Mystery solved I think.  You're not getting something from nothing, you're also not buying an EV.  The management system may have come on since the first generation Prius, but ultimately you're still generating electricity with a petrol ICE.  Diesel railway locomotives have been pulling a similar trick since the 50s - including regen braking.

 

31 minutes ago, pigeon controller said:

Not sure how I would get on with my normal drive down to Greece? It would take a lot longer than the normal two and a half days.

Probably not very well, but I doubt anybody is seriously advocating edge cases like yourself switch to a pure EV.

 

12 hours ago, armsid said:

If we had continued with this how far ahead would GB be now?

An lot of these 'future tech' projects didn't go anywhere because the necessary control systems couldn't be done, or at least not economically, with available computing power at the time.  Given a self-driving car is basically just one big-*** control system hooked to a conventional car, I'm not surprised this er, stalled.  Look at its compatriots rom the 60s.  The Apollo programme burned the GDP of many small nations and they just about developed computers to do the flight control mathematics the wetware couldn't handle.  Concorde famously had 'no' computers - but also had 3 men up front keeping the systems running and horrendously complicated mechanical redundancies that were a nightmare to maintain.

 

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

They very much are the answer, an electric motor and its associated ability to delete big, heavy, complicated transmissions are the future.

What exactly powers these motors is the tricky part.  And there will be no one-size-fits-all answer to this.  Just the same as you don't tend to see diesel-powered Ferraris.

For suburban deliveries, probably batteries*.  For long distance rigs, possibly hydrogen or just accept Diesel for a while longer.

*Braces for remark about 'milk floats' - yes, my dad told me about them.  Mind, he grew up in the rough area of Liverpool.  Grandad was a tail-gunner on a milk float.

You are of course right, I should have said "or just accept that battery powered vehicles are NOT the answer and move on."

Until batteries can be recharged in the same time it takes to fill a petrol tank and the life of said batteries massively increases, they are just a pipe dream. Hydrogen however just may well be the answer. Just as soon as they can figure out how to TAX us on it. (I believe there is a company that has developed a Hydrogen converter that you install at home and it is a one off cost so effectively free fuel).

[oowee]

44 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

You are of course right, I should have said "or just accept that battery powered vehicles are NOT the answer and move on."

Until batteries can be recharged in the same time it takes to fill a petrol tank and the life of said batteries massively increases, they are just a pipe dream. Hydrogen however just may well be the answer. Just as soon as they can figure out how to TAX us on it. (I believe there is a company that has developed a Hydrogen converter that you install at home and it is a one off cost so effectively free fuel).

The average vehicle distance traveled in a day is just 24 miles. EV will easily cover the majority or journeys full stop. For longer journeys we can have induction or battery swap. For heavy application we will need greater energy density than batteries and that is likley where hydrogen will come in.

Ultimately we will no doubt reduce the need for travel. 

[JTaylor91]

Graphene batteries may change the game a little. Faster charging and higher capacity.

A lithium battery holds up to 180wh per kg, a graphene battery is up to 1,000wh per kg.

[London Best]

33 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

Ultimately we will no doubt reduce the need for travel. 

Could you expand on that statement, please. Baffled.

[Newbie to this]

55 minutes ago, London Best said:

Could you expand on that statement, please. Baffled.

Your not the only one.

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The average vehicle distance traveled in a day is just 24 miles. EV will easily cover the majority or journeys full stop. For longer journeys we can have induction or battery swap. For heavy application we will need greater energy density than batteries and that is likley where hydrogen will come in.

Ultimately we will no doubt reduce the need for travel. 

And the lifetime of these batteries, batteries which cost a fortune to replace?

My car is 16 years old and still going strong, I very much doubt that a battery car will still be going strong in 16 years, not without numerous battery changes, costing a small fortune.

Batteries as a viable fuel replacement, is nothing more than a pipe dream.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Newbie to this

[London Best]

I have no concerns about electric vehicles.

I have simply decided that I’m not having one.