Steel proofing a sxs

[Ferret664]

So with the upcoming move over to steel shot is it worth getting a side by side steel proofed ? Can you get a 2 3/4 chambered side by side barrels steel proofed ? As I see the eley eco wads say for steel proofed guns only ? Or is steel proofing only for 3inch high performance loads ? My side by side is 1/2 and full choke and I've heard it said just open its chokes up to half and it will be fine but I don't like plastic wads so the eco wads will be my go to but they say only steel proofed guns ? Any help would be appreciated 

 

Many thanks 

[wymberley]

I'd be inclined to wait 10 years and then see how things have panned out.

[Scully]

Who said the eco wads are for steel proofed guns only, and why? 
If in doubt, and if you can find a ‘smith willing to open the choke without insisting it goes for reproofing as a result ( in which case you may aswell have it proofed for steel ) I’d just have it opened to 1/2 and crack on. 
 

[Ferret664]

7 minutes ago, Scully said:

Who said the eco wads are for steel proofed guns only, and why? 
If in doubt, and if you can find a ‘smith willing to open the choke without insisting it goes for reproofing as a result ( in which case you may aswell have it proofed for steel ) I’d just have it opened to 1/2 and crack on. 
 

It's what it says ontop of the boxes . I use it already through my hatasan  which is steel proof . 

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Ferret664 said:

It's what it says ontop of the boxes . I use it already through my hatasan  which is steel proof . 

I see. Gamebores Super Steel 3’s and 4’s are HP steel loads for steel shot proofed guns also, but I’ve been using them ( and others ) in my non-steel shot proofed guns on and off for years, even an old Winchester 101. 

You could of course just submit your gun for steel shot proofing, and thereby prove to yourself that you didn’t need to! 🙂

[holloway]

As steel patterns tighter than lead you may find your full choke more like extra full.That would be my only concern.

[Stonepark]

If it is a modern gun (post 1990, short answer would be probably not) CIP sets the rules that if a cartridge has pellets over a certain size, muzzle velocity or momentum cartridge is branded HP and should only be shot in steel proof guns (as if an extra mark makes a difference to the gun suddenly being suitable or not...when all guns over the last 30 years have been made with steel in mind as manufacturers could not control their final destination or use.)

 

If you are shooting duck loads 2¾ (No3, No4, No5) or smaller, any choking is suitable, even full with either Standard or HP cartridges.

 

That being said the exception would be When you are shooting 4mm or larger shot, half choke max is recommended to 'avoid' possible barrel damage as more likely get bridging and shot scoring through wad.

 

If your sxs is of an age (pre 1950) then your risk of an issue such as shot scoring is higher than a post 1950 gun, and the post 1990 gun has least risk, but I would shoot HP steel duck loads through a half and full 1970's Baikal without any second thought.

 

The Eley Eco wad is more like a clear rubber in feel, than plastic and they may be worried about shot penetration through the wad but it could be just A*se covering in case someone claims damage to their £100k, 100 year old Purdey. Recover a couple of wads when used in your Hatsan, if no lateral shot penetration, shot is not damaging the barrels as wad is doing its job.

[Dave at kelton]

I have just bought a couple of hundred for use in my non steel proofed sxs’s. See below no mention of steel proof!

Eley site says “specifically designed for old English guns and traditional side by sides.”

The market leading true 2 and a half inch 65mm case length cartridge. A traditional lead load designed specifically old English guns and traditional side by sides.

The market leading true 2 and a half inch 65mm case length cartridge. A traditional lead load designed specifically old English guns and traditional side by sides

Just Cartridges

The perfect blend between tradition and market leading innovation utilising our ground breaking PRO-ECO fully biodegradable wad. The Grand Prix Traditional Steel is a standard load approved for nitro proofed guns which is loaded in a 30 gram 4 shot and in the famous Grand Prix orange case.

 

And William Powell

The Eley Grand Prix Traditional Steel Pro Eco Wad Shotgun Cartridges are the first true 2 ½ inch steel cartridges designed specifically for traditional game guns. Containing a fully dissolvable and biodegradable wad. This innovative technology allows the wad to break down in water in approximately 24 hours – it is 100% plastic free and leaves no toxic residue. Designed in a cup format to enhance ballistics and ensure consistent patterning. Featuring a 70mm (2 ¾ inch) case and produced as ‘Standard Steel’, suitable for modern nitro proofed and Standard Steel proofed guns with maximum of half choke.

[8 shot]

2 hours ago, Stonepark said:

If you are shooting duck loads 2¾ (No3, No4, No5) or smaller, any choking is suitable, even full with either Standard or HP cartridges.

I'm sure No. 3s are classed as HP Steel as I was told when i purchased some Eley EcoWads in 3s

[enfieldspares]

15 hours ago, Scully said:

If in doubt, and if you can find a ‘smith willing to open the choke without insisting it goes for reproofing as a result....
 

Why would any reputable gunsmith who does choke boring insist the gun goes to reproof? Neither Proof House has ever required that normal opening out of fixed chokes such as taking full choke to three-quarter, half, quarter or even improved or, even, all the way out to true cylinder requires a gun to be sent for re-proof. 

[Rob85]

4 hours ago, 8 shot said:

I'm sure No. 3s are classed as HP Steel as I was told when i purchased some Eley EcoWads in 3s

These are a 32gram number 3. I was given them after asking for a standard steel load to go through my old AYA and sarasketa. Would they therefore actually be classed as HP loads as both guns have at least 1 full choke barrel.

I've went down the road of just not worrying and going ahead as they were sold as a standard pressure steel load.

The box has no figures other than 32g of number 3 steel shot.

Downside with them as the plastic wad.

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Why would any reputable gunsmith who does choke boring insist the gun goes to reproof? Neither Proof House has ever required that normal opening out of fixed chokes such as taking full choke to three-quarter, half, quarter or even improved or, even, all the way out to true cylinder requires a gun to be sent for re-proof. 

Because their insurers insist on it? 
Some time ago I asked Teague to chop the barrels of a shotgun, and rebore to 3/8ths. I was quoted a price plus reproof. I told them I wouldn’t require them being reproofed as that was only required by law if I intended to sell it, which I didn’t, and was told that in all cases of reboring a barrel to a specific choke or threading for multi chokes, their insurers insisted on reproofing following their work. As a result I told her I wouldn’t go ahead. Company policy may have changed since, I have no idea. 
Many many moons ago, when I wanted a rifle barrel chopped and screw cut for a mod’, the dealer added the cost of reproofing to the quote. I declined the work and went straight to his gunsmith who did it for half the cost and didn’t even mention reproofing. 🤷‍♂️

[wymberley]

13 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

These are a 32gram number 3. I was given them after asking for a standard steel load to go through my old AYA and sarasketa. Would they therefore actually be classed as HP loads as both guns have at least 1 full choke barrel.

I've went down the road of just not worrying and going ahead as they were sold as a standard pressure steel load.

The box has no figures other than 32g of number 3 steel shot.

Downside with them as the plastic wad.

You need to define No 3. If its over 3.25mm it's HP.

Is it me, or has a post mentioning 'English No3' just disappeared?

It doesn't/won't affect me, but it must be said that while this confusion continues as yet we are not in a position to safely adopt steel shot as part of a legislated requirement for the sole use of NTS.

[Nuke]

1 hour ago, Rob85 said:

These are a 32gram number 3. I was given them after asking for a standard steel load to go through my old AYA and sarasketa. Would they therefore actually be classed as HP loads as both guns have at least 1 full choke barrel.

The choke is not an issue beyond pattern. You need to look at the force cones.

/Markus 

[Stonepark]

41 minutes ago, Nuke said:

The choke is not an issue beyond pattern. You need to look at the force cones.

/Markus 

CIP Steel cartridge rules are about stopping muzzle damage (chokes) rather than breech damage due to pressures.

[enfieldspares]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

Because their insurers insist on it? 
Some time ago I asked Teague to chop the barrels of a shotgun, and rebore to 3/8ths. I was quoted a price plus reproof. I told them I wouldn’t require them being reproofed as that was only required by law if I intended to sell it, which I didn’t, and was told that in all cases of reboring a barrel to a specific choke or threading for multi chokes, their insurers insisted on reproofing following their work. As a result I told her I wouldn’t go ahead. Company policy may have changed since, I have no idea. 
Many many moons ago, when I wanted a rifle barrel chopped and screw cut for a mod’, the dealer added the cost of reproofing to the quote. I declined the work and went straight to his gunsmith who did it for half the cost and didn’t even mention reproofing. 🤷‍♂️

Rifle: Chopped and screw cut for a moderator, yes, needs a reproof because of the screw cut. Just shortened and that's all it won't.

Shotgun: Internally threaded at the muzzle for screw in chokes, yes, needs a reproof. Just honed to change a fixed choke to a lesser degree of choke. No.

But as you say Teague may well have their own protocols for honing fixed chokes. I think that in that case you were 100% right to walk away from them. Absolutely.

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Rifle: Chopped and screw cut for a moderator, yes, needs a reproof because of the screw cut. Just shortened and that's all it won't.

Shotgun: Internally threaded at the muzzle for screw in chokes, yes, needs a reproof. Just honed to change a fixed choke to a lesser degree of choke. No.

But as you say Teague may well have their own protocols for honing fixed chokes. I think that in that case you were 100% right to walk away from them. Absolutely.

None need a reproof as far as I’m aware. None of the work you’ve outlined above makes it illegal to own that firearm.
It is only a requirement by law to have that firearm reproofed if you intend to sell it. 
As a matter of interest ( or maybe not ) I was once given an illegally held S1 shotgun by a friend. I took it to my local RFD who entered it in his register, so I could then ‘buy’ it back. However, we discovered it had no proof marks so it was entered on my ticket as ‘given’, as it would have been illegal for him to ‘sell’ it to me.

It’s a funny old game. 🙂

[Gerry78]

On 11/09/2021 at 21:08, Ferret664 said:

So with the upcoming move over to steel shot is it worth getting a side by side steel proofed ? Can you get a 2 3/4 chambered side by side barrels steel proofed ? As I see the eley eco wads say for steel proofed guns only ? Or is steel proofing only for 3inch high performance loads ? My side by side is 1/2 and full choke and I've heard it said just open its chokes up to half and it will be fine but I don't like plastic wads so the eco wads will be my go to but they say only steel proofed guns ? Any help would be appreciated 

 

Many thanks 

I’m only suggesting if your s/s chambering is 2 3/4 all you have to do is open your choke from full to half you should be able to use standard steel through your gun 

[Stonepark]

17 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

I’m only suggesting if your s/s chambering is 2 3/4 all you have to do is open your choke from full to half you should be able to use standard steel through your gun 

There is no requirement or advice to alter chokes for standard steel, only HP steel.

[Gerry78]

21 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

There is no requirement or advice to alter chokes for standard steel, only HP steel.

Yes I should have said that apologies 

[Ferret664]

14 hours ago, Stonepark said:

There is no requirement or advice to alter chokes for standard steel, only HP steel.

I thought even standard steel was recommended no more then half choke also ? There so many different bits of information that say different things its so confusing 😕  so standard steel would be fine through a full choke ? Eley eco wads even in 5s say for a steel proof guns even though I thought standard steel was up to shot size 4 ? 

[Stonepark]

15 minutes ago, Ferret664 said:

I thought even standard steel was recommended no more then half choke also ? There so many different bits of information that say different things its so confusing 😕  so standard steel would be fine through a full choke ? Eley eco wads even in 5s say for a steel proof guns even though I thought standard steel was up to shot size 4 ? 

It is a twin standard a bit like the Highway code with rules based on both legislation and advice (which is very conservative),.... But which is also confused due to UK cartridge companies using USA shot sizes which are larger.

 

For cartridge manufacturing, Standard  Steel  shot  CANNOT be  larger  than  3.25mm  i.e.  English  no.3 (USA no 4),  but  CAN  be used  through  any  choke in any gun bar Damascus or similar. 

There  is  no  limit  on  shot  size  in  High  Performance  Steel cartridges  but  if  pellet is  greater  than  4.0mm  (i.e.  English  BB  or  larger - USA no1 )  then  choke less than  half  SHOULD  be  used and to avoid potential bulging at choke especially on older guns, modern guns are built to handle this extra stress.

For  traditional  lightweight  game  guns,  CIP  RECOMMENDS choke  generally  no greater  than  half  while  the  British  Proof  Authorities  recommend  no  more  than quarter  choke due to thin walls historically in English SxS but does not generally apply to modern guns due to thicker barrel walls and better steel used in manufacture.  

 

In USA, Saami regs are only concerned about pressure and it was simply accepted that any Damascus, thin walled etc guns should be retired or only used with bismuth or similar and not used with (HP) steel, as most USA guns are Pump\Semi\(90%l with most remainder being Modern OU\SxS with very few old guns used day to day, most being held as collectors pieces or heirlooms.

[claysandgame]

1 hour ago, Ferret664 said:

I thought even standard steel was recommended no more then half choke also ? There so many different bits of information that say different things its so confusing 😕  so standard steel would be fine through a full choke ? Eley eco wads even in 5s say for a steel proof guns even though I thought standard steel was up to shot size 4 ? 

@Stonepark has just covered this much more thoroughly than I

Certainly though some UK cartridge manufacturers were explaining recently to me that although you can put standard steel through any choke they were suggesting 1/2 choke was more than enough and max 5/8 if you wanted super full, whilst 3/8 gave very good kills. 

I also think it comes down to what you personally are comfortable with. I have a 1960's Webley with 1/4 & 3/4 chokes sxs and I've put steel through the 1/4 choke on that one but not the 3/4. My other one with 1/4 & 1/2 I've put through both happily! Both to good effect 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by claysandgame
Better answer see above

[Dangerous Brian]

3 hours ago, Ferret664 said:

I thought even standard steel was recommended no more then half choke also ? There so many different bits of information that say different things its so confusing 😕  so standard steel would be fine through a full choke ? Eley eco wads even in 5s say for a steel proof guns even though I thought standard steel was up to shot size 4 ? 

I think the Eley warning doesn't relate to HP steel proof. They state that the gun should be proofed for steel. A standard Nito proofed gun with 70mm chamber is proofed for standard steel. Don't get too hung up on shot sizes as numbers; stick with sizes in mm as one manufacturers No.4 might be another's No.3 etc.

The full choke might be a bit tight- even if damage isn't an issue, the pattern could be blown giving you a lot of misses and cripples.

[Old farrier]

Well it seems Basc will only have you on one of there days if your gun is steel proof 

for standard steel shot 

so this gets more confusing 🤔