Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[clangerman]

western propaganda is a joke if you switched flags during the night next morning the gullible would be calling ukraine terrorists without a second thought lol 

[Vince Green]

23 hours ago, Mungler said:

 

 

 

I imagine that back in the days of WW2 there would have been a handful of people who listened everyday to Lord HawHaw and went around telling everyone what a lovely and misunderstood chap Herr Hitler was, how he was entitled to roll into Poland and how more should have been done to sit down and negotiate with him. Also how we should be distrustful of the economic, food and military support of those nasty Yankies and how we shouldn't have been fighting the American's proxy war against Germany

 

This is EXACTLY what happened to me at College in the 70s practically every day 

Every time you sat down in the Refectory or the bar one of these CND types would sidle up to you and start saying we shouldn't listen to what the TV and the newspapers said about Russia. It was all British and American lies.

Really Russia was a gentle peace loving country and it was our side that were the bad guys. Oh and why don't you come to a meeting this evening...............

[Stonepark]

Some objective discussions....

 

On the wider Ukrainian war, for those following the MSM and haven't figured it out by now, whilst taking control of circa 25% of Ukraine to date, Russia has eliminated over 50% of Ukrainian combat effectiveness. Russia's main intention was to demilitarise Ukraine which they are aiming to complete before winter sets in. This will prevent Ukraine subsequently attacking the seceeded regions as it was previously gearing up to do before Russia stepped in and negated 8 years of international arm sales and training in 4 months as Zelensky was building his "invasion force"  instead of implementing the Minsk agreement.

 

Unless anyone else has been indiscriminately killing ethnic Russian citizens over the last 8 years, they don't have to worry about Russia invading them, so the rush for Finland and Sweden to suddenly join NATO is nothing more than politics using the "reds are coming" argument to scare their populations into joining NATO.

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Some objective discussions....

 

On the wider Ukrainian war, for those following the MSM and haven't figured it out by now, whilst taking control of circa 25% of Ukraine to date, Russia has eliminated over 50% of Ukrainian combat effectiveness. Russia's main intention was to demilitarise Ukraine which they are aiming to complete before winter sets in. This will prevent Ukraine subsequently attacking the seceeded regions as it was previously gearing up to do before Russia stepped in and negated 8 years of international arm sales and training in 4 months as Zelensky was building his "invasion force"  instead of implementing the Minsk agreement.

 

Unless anyone else has been indiscriminately killing ethnic Russian citizens over the last 8 years, they don't have to worry about Russia invading them, so the rush for Finland and Sweden to suddenly join NATO is nothing more than politics using the "reds are coming" argument to scare their populations into joining NATO.

Ukraine amassing an invasion force?

I’ve heard it all now 😆😆

You have been on the bonkerooney juice alright 😆😆

[Rewulf]

Bumbling Ben Wallace puts his foot in it ..again.

https://news.sky.com/story/fate-of-ukraine-matters-because-china-is-watching-russias-invasion-uk-defence-secretary-says-12634431

Not that 'Ukraine matters' because of the humanitarian tragedy unfolding, but hes worried about how 'weak' the west looks to China !
Virtually confirming to any doubters that its anything but a proxy war, he claims that if the west dont show enough resolve over Ukraine , China is likely to go after Taiwan....

Now I wonder why they dont invite Taiwan to join NATO, its already bristling with American weaponry ?

[Mungler]

15 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Bumbling Ben Wallace puts his foot in it ..again.

https://news.sky.com/story/fate-of-ukraine-matters-because-china-is-watching-russias-invasion-uk-defence-secretary-says-12634431

Not that 'Ukraine matters' because of the humanitarian tragedy unfolding, but hes worried about how 'weak' the west looks to China !
Virtually confirming to any doubters that its anything but a proxy war, he claims that if the west dont show enough resolve over Ukraine , China is likely to go after Taiwan....

Now I wonder why they dont invite Taiwan to join NATO, its already bristling with American weaponry ?

Well, all of that skips over the whole Taiwan really really doesn’t want anything to do with China, let alone be invaded and occupied by China. But hey, why bother listening to Taiwan or helping them?

[Mice!]

18 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Well, all of that skips over the whole Taiwan really really doesn’t want anything to do with China, let alone be invaded and occupied by China. But hey, why bother listening to Taiwan or helping them?

Why would we get involved with helping Taiwan? It's the other side of the world, China could take the island anytime it pleased, and it would have zero affect on us here in Great Britain.

The idea we can and should be trying to police the world is ludicrous,  China occupying Taiwan will bother the USA  because of Japan and the Philippines, but I doubt they'll be putting any ships between two.

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

and it would have zero affect on us here in Great Britain.

Oh really?  We would be obliged (by our allies such as USA, Australia, New Zealand etc.) to join international sanctions against Chinese goods and materials - and that would have a massive effect.

Not joining sanctions would also have a massive effect because many will join and will not want to trade with those who opt out of the sanctions

Edited June 16, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Mice!]

35 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Oh really?  We would be obliged (by our allies such as USA, Australia, New Zealand etc.) to join international sanctions against Chinese goods and materials - and that would have a massive effect.

Not joining sanctions would also have a massive effect because many will join and will noit want to trade with those who opt of of the sanctions

I don't see how trade with China could be stopped, I've said for years we are far to reliant on buying cheap from overseas such as India and China, China could easily hurt us and others by not selling to us, but they want the income.

Many on here have said the invasion of Ukraine must be stopped otherwise Putin could roll right through Europe and said its right on our doorstep,  I don't agree with either and Taiwan certainly isn't. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, I see leaders of France, Germany, Italy are holding crunch talks in Kiev , now what are crunch talks, 🤔

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I see leaders of France, Germany, Italy are holding crunch talks in Kiev , now what are crunch talks, 🤔

just seen macro et al'.......bet macron is going down the apeasment route (its cheaper...and his granny said so)

germany will proberly fling a few more helmets ukraines way.....Europe are a bunch of cowards...history will repeat itself

[amateur]

8 minutes ago, ditchman said:

just seen macro et al'.......bet macron is going down the apeasment route (its cheaper...and his granny said so)

germany will proberly fling a few more helmets ukraines way.....Europe are a bunch of cowards...history will repeat itself

It didn't end well for any of them, the last time that they each tangled with Russia. 😆

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, amateur said:

It didn't end well for any of them, the last time that they each tangled with Russia. 😆

Depends how you measure it. I’d rather be living in a middling bit of free Germany right now than the nicest part of anywhere in Russia. 

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

Well, all of that skips over the whole Taiwan really really doesn’t want anything to do with China, let alone be invaded and occupied by China. But hey, why bother listening to Taiwan or helping them?

Thats a bit difficult when you are 100 miles of sea away from a dominant power who have never recognised your existence as a state.
And 'helping them' ? Shall we stick our shiny new carriers in the strait and watch them slip under the waves in the first hour ?
 

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

China could take the island anytime it pleased,

Definitely, any thoughts to the contrary are utterly naive.

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

The idea we can and should be trying to police the world is ludicrous,  China occupying Taiwan will bother the USA  because of Japan and the Philippines, but I doubt they'll be putting any ships between two.

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Oh really?  We would be obliged (by our allies such as USA, Australia, New Zealand etc.) to join international sanctions against Chinese goods and materials - and that would have a massive effect.

There are already trade and tech sanctions on China , it bothers them not a jot.

We are much likely, as in the case with Russia, to hurt ourselves with sanctions than them.

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

I don't see how trade with China could be stopped, I've said for years we are far to reliant on buying cheap from overseas such as India and China, China could easily hurt us and others by not selling to us, but they want the income.

Profits for western corps are based on cheap Chinese manufacture, are the movers and shakers that run western governments going to give that up, nope.

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Depends how you measure it. I’d rather be living in a middling bit of free Germany right now than the nicest part of anywhere in Russia. 

Depends if you have the choice where you live I suppose.
Back in the day , that middling bit of free Germany decided that wasnt enough, and needed 'room' to grow.

[amateur]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Depends how you measure it. I’d rather be living in a middling bit of free Germany right now than the nicest part of anywhere in Russia. 

I totally agree with you, but memories of 1812 for the French and WW2 for the Germans and Italians might well colour their perspective.

[oowee]

5 hours ago, Mice! said:

I don't see how trade with China could be stopped, I've said for years we are far to reliant on buying cheap from overseas such as India and China, China could easily hurt us and others by not selling to us, but they want the income.

Many on here have said the invasion of Ukraine must be stopped otherwise Putin could roll right through Europe and said its right on our doorstep,  I don't agree with either and Taiwan certainly isn't. 

Hopefully China implodes before the fight starts. 

Is democracy more powerful than tyranny? 

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Hopefully China implodes before the fight starts. 

Do you really think theres any possibility of that ?
Low unemployment , better standards of living than ever before, and a steadily rising GDP.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d774d7a417a4d31457a6333566d54/share_p.html

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Is democracy more powerful than tyranny? 

I lean towards no, but it depends on what kind of democracy, against what type of tyranny.
Rome had some of its best years under 'tyrants' and some of its worst under senatorial democracy.

An easy way to measure the theory is to compare the growth of the west, under our version of democracy, against Chinas growth, under what you call tyranny.
How many defenceless countries has China invaded lately ?

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Do you really think theres any possibility of that ?
Low unemployment , better standards of living than ever before, and a steadily rising GDP.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d774d7a417a4d31457a6333566d54/share_p.html

I lean towards no, but it depends on what kind of democracy, against what type of tyranny.
Rome had some of its best years under 'tyrants' and some of its worst under senatorial democracy.

An easy way to measure the theory is to compare the growth of the west, under our version of democracy, against Chinas growth, under what you call tyranny.
How many defenceless countries has China invaded lately ?

Yes I think there is a good chance. The future ( I hope)  belongs to free thought and creativity none of which can develop easily in a top down state system. GDP and rising standards are easier to achieve from a low base. Not sure how long the west can continue with it's unsustainable standard of living. Maybe global warming will save us all from fighting over the last few resources. 

This is an interesting think piece https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170330-the-uncertain-future-of-democracy

With this extract talking about measures of democracy ( set out by the Economist Intelligence Unit in London). 

The results of last year’s report are sobering. Overall, the global average score fell with 72 countries dropping in the ranking compared to 2015, and just 38 moving up. The number of “full democracies” dropped from 20 to 19, with the US now classed as “flawed”. According to the EIU's measure, around half the world's population (49.3%) live in a democracy of some kind. But only 4.5% of people live in a “full democracy” - half as many as in 2015.

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

Hopefully China implodes before the fight starts. 

Is democracy more powerful than tyranny? 

I don't see China imploding any time soon.

I would say democracy is only more powerful than tyranny when you have the might and the will to do something about it. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Yes I think there is a good chance. The future ( I hope)  belongs to free thought and creativity none of which can develop easily in a top down state system.

I cant agree with that, I too would like to think free thought and creativity are the future , but the evidence suggest this is being stifled, as we become more conformist and 'woke'.
As your Economist quote states, most democracies dont actually practice true democracy, we are just given the illusion our vote matters.

This is evident when you have members of the unelected elite , like Bilderberg and WEF trying to push Chinese style social credit systems and universal incomes, communist style quotes like 'You will own nothing, and you will be happy' are like something straight out of 1984.

If there is a 'good chance' of anything , its a very predictable slide away from even illusory democracy, towards that top down totalitarian , one world government nightmare.

[Gerry78]

6 hours ago, oowee said:

Hopefully China implodes before the fight starts. 

Is democracy more powerful than tyranny? 

I could not see that happening in my personal view forget USA,GB,Germany etc to me China is the number 1 global super power Economically ,Militarily not to mention the amount of everyday stuff we take for granted that China supplies Medical supplies  for example China provides 90% of the west antibiotics Agree with Mice Taiwan would be lucky to last a month against the might of the Chinese military My friend works in the mines in northern Australia the last 30 years the Chinese have been buying up the iron ore For There economy just a example of There society building 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

I could not see that happening in my personal view forget USA,GB,Germany etc to me China is the number 1 global super power Economically ,Militarily not to mention the amount of everyday stuff we take for granted that China supplies Medical supplies  for example China provides 90% of the west antibiotics Agree with Mice Taiwan would be lucky to last a month against the might of the Chinese military My friend works in the mines in northern Australia the last 30 years the Chinese have been buying up the iron ore For There economy just a example of There society building 

It's hard to imagine now. China is dependent on growth to maintain stability. Growth can only come from increasing consumption in the west and from increasing wealth amongst its own population. As wealth increases so does access to knowledge and also travel.

The west is in decline (past its peak), innovation comes from the west in part as a result of our free thinking and open society, China will need to allow more freedom of thought to allow it to take the next steps in technology as it displaces the role of the west. As China grows in confidence and wealth so too does the understanding of it's citizens of the restrictions placed upon them and the massive inequalities generated by the party system. Inequalities that are bound to increase, testing the controlled system of capitalism allowed by the state.

It;s a vast and ethnically diverse country that will get harder and harder to control. Ever increasingly authoritarian measures will be used to force an ever increasingly liberal society to comply. 

[Gerry78]

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's hard to imagine now. China is dependent on growth to maintain stability. Growth can only come from increasing consumption in the west and from increasing wealth amongst its own population. As wealth increases so does access to knowledge and also travel.

The west is in decline (past its peak), innovation comes from the west in part as a result of our free thinking and open society, China will need to allow more freedom of thought to allow it to take the next steps in technology as it displaces the role of the west. As China grows in confidence and wealth so too does the understanding of it's citizens of the restrictions placed upon them and the massive inequalities generated by the party system. Inequalities that are bound to increase, testing the controlled system of capitalism allowed by the state.

It;s a vast and ethnically diverse country that will get harder and harder to control. Ever increasingly authoritarian measures will be used to force an ever increasingly liberal society to comply. 

You do make good points oowee which I find it hard to disagree but the more powerful the Chinese ruling elite become the harder it will become for them to be overthrown I agree that China human rights have a lot to be desired regarding the treatment of some of There people I do think if they decided to attack Taiwan the west would be powerless to help I know there supplying Ukraine with weapons and Aid at this moment but I honestly think they would think twice helping Taiwan 

[Mungler]

52 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's hard to imagine now. China is dependent on growth to maintain stability. Growth can only come from increasing consumption in the west and from increasing wealth amongst its own population. As wealth increases so does access to knowledge and also travel.

The west is in decline (past its peak), innovation comes from the west in part as a result of our free thinking and open society, China will need to allow more freedom of thought to allow it to take the next steps in technology as it displaces the role of the west. As China grows in confidence and wealth so too does the understanding of it's citizens of the restrictions placed upon them and the massive inequalities generated by the party system. Inequalities that are bound to increase, testing the controlled system of capitalism allowed by the state.

It;s a vast and ethnically diverse country that will get harder and harder to control. Ever increasingly authoritarian measures will be used to force an ever increasingly liberal society to comply. 

Some very good points.

I’m always amazed that when you look back in history, the two best shots at total global domination were via a Greek (Alexander) and a Mongol (Ghengis) and perhaps a Tunisian.

Let’s  not be modest, but our peak was at the peak of the British Empire.

Add in a Roman Empire, some Egyptians who must have been pretty pleased with themselves and a few Mayans too from what we have found of their temples…. in the modern world the Greeks, Italians, South Americans and certainly the Mongols are barely relevant in this world and time.

One of our favourite expressions at work is ’in time this too will pass’.

[ditchman]

yup ..its me being cynicle again...

i think the EU and Ukraine are playing a nasty little game.........let me explain

its all about Ukraine desperate to join the EU...Ukraine are happy to let us UK send them loads of serious weaponary   as we watch Macron and his EU cronies supply sweet fanny adams......well let me correct that ...i understand Macron has supplied half a dozen Howitzers and enough ammo for 2 days medium use...BUT....BUT ...the Howitzers are being rented to Ukraine..........

now we see the EU licking Ukranines bottom on therir visit...................okay lets say Ukraine is fast tracked into the EU...

when this fracas ends there is going to be alot of dosh floating about....for machinary....goods ...expertise....engineers....agric' equip.....parts for steel works...parts for factories....cement plants....it goes on..........

NOW as Ukraine will be in the EU by that time they will (as a member) will only be able to source these goods and contracts from within the EU itself..........the UK ...having done all the dirty work...will be outside the EU and will get no benifit in the rebuild programme.........................

i was watching the French news network last night...and the Italian contingent were being interviewed and they stated there and then that they would handle the rebuild of the living infrastructure.......

i fear the UK and to a certain extent the US are being taken as mugs.......

why ask yourself did Macron and other EU ministers etc go en masse to Ukraine.....certainly not to arrage arms shipments.............they have got their eye on being first in line of having access to Ukraines assetts and GDP %

as i said ...its just me being cynicle..