NATO! What's in a name?

[ShootingEgg]

9 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

No we wouldn't, we go into Ukrainian held areas only

And as soon as we do Putin would see that as an act of aggression towards Russia!!! It's as simple as that so is a non starter. A mate of mine is in the RAF and he says it's pretty simple, we make any move into Ukraine, Putin goes full bore and starts hitting buttons.. 

[12gauge82]

52 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

And as soon as we do Putin would see that as an act of aggression towards Russia!!! It's as simple as that so is a non starter. A mate of mine is in the RAF and he says it's pretty simple, we make any move into Ukraine, Putin goes full bore and starts hitting buttons.. 

Possibly so, but if he really is that deranged that he would start a nuclear conflict with the west then I'd suggest he'll do it at some point anyway. 

If we're going to play his game of doing as he says or else, where does it end? 

I don't want ww3, much less a nuclear war any more than anyone else, but sometimes you need to stand up and be counted, they bombed a children's hospital today, Russia needs dealing with and if its not now, I'd bet my bottom dollar it'll be at some point in the future anyway. 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Possibly so, but if he really is that deranged that he would start a nuclear conflict with the west then I'd suggest he'll do it at some point anyway. 

If we're going to play his game of doing as he says or else, where does it end? 

I don't want ww3, much less a nuclear war any more than anyone else, but sometimes you need to stand up and be counted, they bombed a children's hospital today, Russia needs dealing with and if its not now, I'd bet my bottom dollar it'll be at some point in the future anyway. 

This ^^^^ Only real hope is that other Russians do the dealing.

[bluesj]

I don't think it would matter one **** who got the blame for starting WW3 because there wouldn't be too many of us around to be pointing fingers!

 

[Stonepark]

26 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

No we wouldn't, we go into Ukrainian held areas only.

If NATO goes into Ukraine... Instant WW3, if NATO tries a instigate a no fly zone... Instant WW3, if NATO supplies heavy equipment to Ukraine... Instant WW3.

Making the current war worse by expanding the combatants is not the answer, you have a go at Putin as deranged for upping the internal Ukrainian civil war (where the West was escalating the civil war by arming the Nationalist Ukrainians to 'win' the civil war) to a full war between countries (with Russia providing direct support to the non nationalist ukrainians), but how deranged is replicating his "mistake" ten or a hundredfold by escalating to a multi axis international war?

Russia is not Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya or any other country where the West (led by the USA) has undertaken regime change and 'bombed them back to the stoneage' to get what they wanted and the countries have thereafter been left decimated but the Western militaries have been mostly unharmed. Russia will inflict commensurate damage to those who attack it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

Why, because they said so? Its not their country. 

Would you jump off a cliff if Putin told you to! 

 

There is no kind way to say you are totally clueless.

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, Gordon R said:

There is no kind way to say you are totally clueless.

And you are totally predictable, can you not have a different view from someone without resorting to insults. 

😂😂😂

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, Stonepark said:

If NATO goes into Ukraine... Instant WW3, if NATO tries a instigate a no fly zone... Instant WW3, if NATO supplies heavy equipment to Ukraine... Instant WW3.

Making the current war worse by expanding the combatants is not the answer, you have a go at Putin as deranged for upping the internal Ukrainian civil war (where the West was escalating the civil war by arming the Nationalist Ukrainians to 'win' the civil war) to a full war between countries (with Russia providing direct support to the non nationalist ukrainians), but how deranged is replicating his "mistake" ten or a hundredfold by escalating to a multi axis international war?

Russia is not Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya or any other country where the West (led by the USA) has undertaken regime change and 'bombed them back to the stoneage' to get what they wanted and the countries have thereafter been left decimated but the Western militaries have been mostly unharmed. Russia will inflict commensurate damage to those who attack it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I get all that, but he has invaded a democratic nation, just like the UK. would you not be asking for help from our allies if it were us being invaded. 

Do you think we should have left Poland to it before ww2? Hitler never wanted a fight with us and other than the fact putin has a red button, I see little difference. 

 

[Mungler]

Stonepark is right.

The brutal reality is that the West has to make the Ukraine Putin’s Vietnam / Afghanistan. That’s not pleasant to sit by and watch, but the alternative I believe is more likely to end in WW3 than not.

At the time Yeltsin handed over, Putin was top of the pile in the KGB. He palmed control of all the big money making infrastructure to his mates and in the intervening 30 or so years he has perfected his grip. He is at the top of his state mafia.

Internal coup to topple him? I doubt it - he’s in a bunker now losing his mind and no one can get near him. I just hope that somewhere in the Russian chain of command on the way to the red button there are one or two that can hold it up / make a difference. 

I don’t think anyone should under estimate how precarious this all is from the comfort on their homes. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Mungler

[12gauge82]

39 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Stonepark is right.

The brutal reality is that the West has to make the Ukraine Putin’s Vietnam / Afghanistan. That’s not pleasant to sit by and watch, but the alternative I believe is more likely to end in WW3 than not.

At the time Yeltsin handed over, Putin was top of the pile in the KGB. He palmed control of all the big money making infrastructure to his mates and in the intervening 30 or so years he has perfected his grip. He is at the top of his state mafia.

Internal coup to topple him? I doubt it - he’s in a bunker now losing his mind and no one can get near him. I just hope that somewhere in the Russian chain of command on the way to the red button there are one or two that can hold it up / make a difference. 

I don’t think anyone should under estimate how precarious this all is from the comfort on their homes. 

I see your point with all that, I just feel that sometimes there's right and wrong and we should do what's right regardless of how difficult or dangerous that might be, just like we did for Poland before ww2. 

 

[Mice!]

10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

If NATO goes into Ukraine... Instant WW3, if NATO tries a instigate a no fly zone... Instant WW3, if NATO supplies heavy equipment to Ukraine... Instant WW3.

Making the current war worse by expanding the combatants is not the answer, you have a go at Putin as deranged for upping the internal Ukrainian civil war (where the West was escalating the civil war by arming the Nationalist Ukrainians to 'win' the civil war) to a full war between countries (with Russia providing direct support to the non nationalist ukrainians), but how deranged is replicating his "mistake" ten or a hundredfold by escalating to a multi axis international war?

Russia is not Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya or any other country where the West (led by the USA) has undertaken regime change and 'bombed them back to the stoneage' to get what they wanted and the countries have thereafter been left decimated but the Western militaries have been mostly unharmed. Russia will inflict commensurate damage to those who attack it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

From what I've read, the Time to risk intervening was when Putin was playing his war games, he's only done what he's done knowing that once he went in and made his threats NATO would and could do nothing. 

I don't think he would use Nukes because he wants the Ukraine or part of it, and it won't be much use after a nuke, but then I'm not an unpredictable nutter.

Who knows what level the escalation could go to?

[12gauge82]

8 minutes ago, Mice! said:

From what I've read, the Time to risk intervening was when Putin was playing his war games, he's only done what he's done knowing that once he went in and made his threats NATO would and could do nothing. 

I don't think he would use Nukes because he wants the Ukraine or part of it, and it won't be much use after a nuke, but then I'm not an unpredictable nutter.

Who knows what level the escalation could go to?

Couldn't agree more. 

[Mungler]

19 minutes ago, Mice! said:

From what I've read, the Time to risk intervening was when Putin was playing his war games, he's only done what he's done knowing that once he went in and made his threats NATO would and could do nothing. 

I don't think he would use Nukes because he wants the Ukraine or part of it, and it won't be much use after a nuke, but then I'm not an unpredictable nutter.

Who knows what level the escalation could go to?

We have become spoilt and complacent in the West - when Trump told the Germans in 2018 that they needed to pay more into NATO and be far less dependant on cheap Russian energy they all laughed at him.

We couldn’t see the Russian threat because we assumed that the rest of the world, like us, had progressed and should now be worried about gender, offending people on Twitter and going green. The idea of building up NATO and spending money on tanks and bombs was totally lost on us. 

Instead of dismissing the Russian build up, we should have immediately shipped all the spare ordnance to hand to the Ukrainians - but which government / Parliament in the West would have signed off on that? Think of what we were all focused on a couple of months ago - party-gate. How pathetic does that all seem right now?

We have had a wake up call. Let’s hope it’s not too late and that our leaders can read the tea leaves and make the immediate tough decisions needed - halting the capping off of the fracking sites, top of that list.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Mungler

[Mice!]

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

We have become spoilt and complacent in the West - when Trump told the Germans in 2018 that they needed to pay more into NATO and be far less dependant on cheap Russian energy they all laughed at him.

We couldn’t see the Russian threat because we assumed that the rest of the world, like us, had progressed and should now be worried about gender, offending people on Twitter and going green. The idea of building up NATO and spending money on tanks and bombs was totally lost on us. 

Instead of dismissing the Russian build up, we should have immediately shipped all the spare ordnance to hand to the Ukrainians - but which government / Parliament in the West would have signed off on that? Think of what we were all focused on a couple of months ago - party-gate. How pathetic does that all seem right now?

We have had a wake up call. Let’s hope it’s not too late and that our leaders can read the tea leaves and make the immediate tough decisions needed - halting the capping off of the fracking sites, top of that list.

You couldn't really plan for Putin doing this, you think the West is civilised so spending big on the armed forces etc is frowned upon, where is the need? which is probably why he's done it now, with Governments everywhere having spent untold amounts on covid, those in power looking to get economies going again and improve there standings for future voting,  which means they weren't really watching what was going on, that's how I see it anyway. 

[Stonepark]

4 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I get all that, but he has invaded a democratic nation, just like the UK. would you not be asking for help from our allies if it were us being invaded. 

Do you think we should have left Poland to it before ww2? Hitler never wanted a fight with us and other than the fact putin has a red button, I see little difference. 

 

Hitler went after Poland due to his perceived unfairness of the treaty of Versaille when the Germans lost Danzig etc and decided to annex the lot as he had no respect for the Poles, Ukrainians and Jews etc who formed the majority of the population who were non-German. Were we right to try and stop the rabid Nazism which was turning a whole population to genocide, the answer is yes, but this is not Ukraine today.

One large issue, I have is that there are significant elements of the Ukrainian Nationalists who also exhibit these Nazi traits towards the Russian, Roma and Jewish element of the current Ukranian population and which is ignored by the likes of the Necons and purposely ignored by the media.

Various individuals in this country scream and moan about foreign interference in elections when somebody from Russia expresses an opinion but people really do not know what foreign interference is, however Ukraine is a perfect example, where your countries future is controlled by people from another country to benefit them and their and not your country.

Since 2013, Ukraine (as a whole) has not been a democratic nation, following the coup guided by the USA Neocons, Ukraine has had a puppet national government elected on elections without including the seceded areas or recognising their right to self determination, as if they included them, the puppet nationalist government would have been kicked out, subject how much vote rigging was going on and a more neutral\russian friendly government installed and the invasion would never have happened as true democracy would have been restored.

 

The culturally Russian Ukrainians were being oppressed by the nationalist government and attacked since 2014 by the nationalists, they asked for help and Russia was amongst the few who responded 2ith peace keeping troops. What should have happened when you have two cultures that can no longer live alongside each other (and that is the issue) is that peace keeping troops be sent in who are totally neutral (not NATO or Russian) and following referendums,  allowed the country to peacefully divide along their cultural lines.

As I have stated before, I believe Putin's aim is to kill and\or disarm these Nazi\nationalist elements, disarm the nation as a whole and Yugoslavia Ukraine, where we now have a mainly relocated cultural populations with their own countries... West Ukraine and East Ukraine.

For anyone with an interest in the background the following video is a good place to start, the Victoria Nuland tapes where they expressly discuss destabilising the democratically elected government to install the Poroshenko government in 2013 is especially enlighting.

 

 

 

[old man]

19 hours ago, bluesj said:

I don't think it would matter one **** who got the blame for starting WW3 because there wouldn't be too many of us around to be pointing fingers!

 

Yep, it's called MAD.

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Hitler went after Poland due to his perceived unfairness of the treaty of Versaille when the Germans lost Danzig etc and decided to annex the lot as he had no respect for the Poles, Ukrainians and Jews etc who formed the majority of the population who were non-German. Were we right to try and stop the rabid Nazism which was turning a whole population to genocide, the answer is yes, but this is not Ukraine today.

One large issue, I have is that there are significant elements of the Ukrainian Nationalists who also exhibit these Nazi traits towards the Russian, Roma and Jewish element of the current Ukranian population and which is ignored by the likes of the Necons and purposely ignored by the media.

Various individuals in this country scream and moan about foreign interference in elections when somebody from Russia expresses an opinion but people really do not know what foreign interference is, however Ukraine is a perfect example, where your countries future is controlled by people from another country to benefit them and their and not your country.

Since 2013, Ukraine (as a whole) has not been a democratic nation, following the coup guided by the USA Neocons, Ukraine has had a puppet national government elected on elections without including the seceded areas or recognising their right to self determination, as if they included them, the puppet nationalist government would have been kicked out, subject how much vote rigging was going on and a more neutral\russian friendly government installed and the invasion would never have happened as true democracy would have been restored.

 

The culturally Russian Ukrainians were being oppressed by the nationalist government and attacked since 2014 by the nationalists, they asked for help and Russia was amongst the few who responded 2ith peace keeping troops. What should have happened when you have two cultures that can no longer live alongside each other (and that is the issue) is that peace keeping troops be sent in who are totally neutral (not NATO or Russian) and following referendums,  allowed the country to peacefully divide along their cultural lines.

As I have stated before, I believe Putin's aim is to kill and\or disarm these Nazi\nationalist elements, disarm the nation as a whole and Yugoslavia Ukraine, where we now have a mainly relocated cultural populations with their own countries... West Ukraine and East Ukraine.

For anyone with an interest in the background the following video is a good place to start, the Victoria Nuland tapes where they expressly discuss destabilising the democratically elected government to install the Poroshenko government in 2013 is especially enlighting.

 

 

 

While I'm sure it's not as black and white as the media portray. The Ukrainians are putting up a hell of a fight against the people who are supposedly liberating them don't you think? 

And while putin might not be ethnicly cleansing like hitler, for the poor innocent Ukrainians being bombed and killed, does it make any difference? I would suggest not. 

[Mice!]

7 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Hitler went after Poland due to his perceived unfairness of the treaty of Versaille when the Germans lost Danzig etc and decided to annex the lot as he had no respect for the Poles, Ukrainians and Jews etc who formed the majority of the population who were non-German. Were we right to try and stop the rabid Nazism which was turning a whole population to genocide, the answer is yes, but this is not Ukraine today.

One large issue, I have is that there are significant elements of the Ukrainian Nationalists who also exhibit these Nazi traits towards the Russian, Roma and Jewish element of the current Ukranian population and which is ignored by the likes of the Necons and purposely ignored by the media.

Various individuals in this country scream and moan about foreign interference in elections when somebody from Russia expresses an opinion but people really do not know what foreign interference is, however Ukraine is a perfect example, where your countries future is controlled by people from another country to benefit them and their and not your country.

Since 2013, Ukraine (as a whole) has not been a democratic nation, following the coup guided by the USA Neocons, Ukraine has had a puppet national government elected on elections without including the seceded areas or recognising their right to self determination, as if they included them, the puppet nationalist government would have been kicked out, subject how much vote rigging was going on and a more neutral\russian friendly government installed and the invasion would never have happened as true democracy would have been restored.

 

The culturally Russian Ukrainians were being oppressed by the nationalist government and attacked since 2014 by the nationalists, they asked for help and Russia was amongst the few who responded 2ith peace keeping troops. What should have happened when you have two cultures that can no longer live alongside each other (and that is the issue) is that peace keeping troops be sent in who are totally neutral (not NATO or Russian) and following referendums,  allowed the country to peacefully divide along their cultural lines.

As I have stated before, I believe Putin's aim is to kill and\or disarm these Nazi\nationalist elements, disarm the nation as a whole and Yugoslavia Ukraine, where we now have a mainly relocated cultural populations with their own countries... West Ukraine and East Ukraine.

For anyone with an interest in the background the following video is a good place to start, the Victoria Nuland tapes where they expressly discuss destabilising the democratically elected government to install the Poroshenko government in 2013 is especially enlighting.

 

 

 

And none of this was in the news, a civil war going on for years. Things are rarely as clear as the media makes out.

I remember us going into Yugoslavia as peace keepers,  but they weren't Russia.

And if Putin felt threatened by NATO's support of the Ukraine government this is the result,  he's making an example of them.

I'm still amazed that the Ukrainian people are putting up such a resistance,  but the cost and rebuilding is going to take many many years.

[Stonepark]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

While I'm sure it's not as black and white as the media portray. The Ukrainians are putting up a hell of a fight against the people who are supposedly liberating them don't you think? 

And while putin might not be ethnicly cleansing like hitler, for the poor innocent Ukrainians being bombed and killed, does it make any difference? I would suggest not. 

I agree the Ukrainians are putting up a fight  (though I understand it is mostly the nationalists that are fighting for their  political masters and beliefs but most ordinary people are keeping their heads down) and Putin is responding no different to how the USA and UK did when surgical strikes  failed due to resistance in Syria with Aleppo, Iraq with Falluja, or anywhere else, going from targeted surgical strikes to area bombardment to achieve his aims.

Putin is killing people, but the Ukranian Government was prepping to begin forceably taking the seceded self determined areas, which arguably may have killed more. More than a few servicemen have been boasting the have been training the Ukranian Army using the tactics learned in Iraq and Syria to prepare to 'Unite' their country.

Killing innocent people should never be the answer, but as the UK (amongst others) has been interfering in other countries, toppling their governments, supplying weapons and freely killing people over less than what the Russians are now doing, it is very hypocritical to suddenly pretend to be "concerned" for the Ukranian nationalists and ignore the on going situation in say Yemen.....

 

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, Stonepark said:

I agree the Ukrainians are putting up a fight  (though I understand it is mostly the nationalists that are fighting for their  political masters and beliefs but most ordinary people are keeping their heads down) and Putin is responding no different to how the USA and UK did when surgical strikes  failed due to resistance in Syria with Aleppo, Iraq with Falluja, or anywhere else, going from targeted surgical strikes to area bombardment to achieve his aims.

Putin is killing people, but the Ukranian Government was prepping to begin forceably taking the seceded self determined areas, which arguably may have killed more. More than a few servicemen have been boasting the have been training the Ukranian Army using the tactics learned in Iraq and Syria to prepare to 'Unite' their country.

Killing innocent people should never be the answer, but as the UK (amongst others) has been interfering in other countries, toppling their governments, supplying weapons and freely killing people over less than what the Russians are now doing, it is very hypocritical to suddenly pretend to be "concerned" for the Ukranian nationalists and ignore the on going situation in say Yemen.....

 

I absolutely agree, the illegal war we were taken into by Tony Blair is a stain on our country and one that I find abhorrent. Two wrongs don't make a right however and what Putin is doing at the moment is brutal and I feel he needs to be stopped, along with many others around the globe. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

On 08/03/2022 at 12:49, toxo said:

At last I've just heard the phrase "WW3" on politics live.

Putin's not stupid, he started this knowing he was in a position of power energy wise and also the western world would do sod all to stop him.

Is NATO merely a club where if you're not a member you don't benefit?

Should it help Ukraine with boots on the ground? What would happen if it did? Would Putin go nuclear? I don't think so and if the west does nothing will Putin stop there knowing nothing can stop him getting back all of the old USSR that he so wants back?

I don't know the details about why Ukraine isn't part of NATO but what's happening now goes beyond all that surely.

I say give the ****** an ultimatum AND be prepared to go in. It's the only thing that'll stop him.

Good post 👍

[captainhastings]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs Nato can't go romping around the place righting wrong doings when the repercussions could be immense life wise to nato members. It has been made clear we won't tolerate them touching an inch of nato ground because that is where the line has been drawn. So that is good enough. Horrible though it is to see 

[Dave-G]

9 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I absolutely agree, the illegal war we were taken into by Tony Blair is a stain on our country and one that I find abhorrent. Two wrongs don't make a right however and what Putin is doing at the moment is brutal and I feel he needs to be stopped, along with many others around the globe. 

And now there are murmurings about bio or chemical attacks being part of Cretin's form... there's a whiff of WMD2 in the air.

NATO is still amassing a much stronger presence in eastern Europe - check out the massive aircraft movements just south and south west of Ukraine on 'Flight radar'.

[toxo]

On 10/03/2022 at 11:36, Stonepark said:

Hitler went after Poland due to his perceived unfairness of the treaty of Versaille when the Germans lost Danzig etc and decided to annex the lot as he had no respect for the Poles, Ukrainians and Jews etc who formed the majority of the population who were non-German. Were we right to try and stop the rabid Nazism which was turning a whole population to genocide, the answer is yes, but this is not Ukraine today.

One large issue, I have is that there are significant elements of the Ukrainian Nationalists who also exhibit these Nazi traits towards the Russian, Roma and Jewish element of the current Ukranian population and which is ignored by the likes of the Necons and purposely ignored by the media.

Various individuals in this country scream and moan about foreign interference in elections when somebody from Russia expresses an opinion but people really do not know what foreign interference is, however Ukraine is a perfect example, where your countries future is controlled by people from another country to benefit them and their and not your country.

Since 2013, Ukraine (as a whole) has not been a democratic nation, following the coup guided by the USA Neocons, Ukraine has had a puppet national government elected on elections without including the seceded areas or recognising their right to self determination, as if they included them, the puppet nationalist government would have been kicked out, subject how much vote rigging was going on and a more neutral\russian friendly government installed and the invasion would never have happened as true democracy would have been restored.

 

The culturally Russian Ukrainians were being oppressed by the nationalist government and attacked since 2014 by the nationalists, they asked for help and Russia was amongst the few who responded 2ith peace keeping troops. What should have happened when you have two cultures that can no longer live alongside each other (and that is the issue) is that peace keeping troops be sent in who are totally neutral (not NATO or Russian) and following referendums,  allowed the country to peacefully divide along their cultural lines.

As I have stated before, I believe Putin's aim is to kill and\or disarm these Nazi\nationalist elements, disarm the nation as a whole and Yugoslavia Ukraine, where we now have a mainly relocated cultural populations with their own countries... West Ukraine and East Ukraine.

For anyone with an interest in the background the following video is a good place to start, the Victoria Nuland tapes where they expressly discuss destabilising the democratically elected government to install the Poroshenko government in 2013 is especially enlighting.

 

 

 

Excellent post! Thank you for filling in a lot of the blanks. It truly is scandalous the way the media can sway whole nations with what they decide to include or omit.

[ShootingEgg]

On 10/03/2022 at 11:36, Stonepark said:

What should have happened when you have two cultures that can no longer live alongside each other (and that is the issue) is that peace keeping troops be sent in who are totally neutral (not NATO or Russian) and following referendums,  allowed the country to peacefully divide along their cultural lines.

This is what was said to me by a friend who works in the RAF. Draw the new lines and peacefully relocate those who need to be.