if its the end of lead, what about .410's

[Stonepark]

43 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Even quite a small drop in demand  will tip manufacturers over from making a profit to making a loss.

All cartridges are made for profit, clay cartridges are less profitable than game cartridges but still have a very healthy margin.

 

For 410 Taking Clay and Games new materials prices, cost of a 19g cartridge as follows

Primed Case 15p

Powder 7p (£42\kg, commercial is £15\kg)

Fibre wad seal & Wad 5p (2p)

Shot 8p (£4.30\kg, lead is £1\kg)

Total 35 p

 £350\1000

 

However, these already have G&C 100%+ profit margin baked in along with VAT, the manufacturers cost guide at worst case is therefore less vat and C&G profit margin of 100% as follows:-

 

£145\1000 with circa £20 for manufacturing costs (labour, electric, rent etc) total £165\1000

 

Current consumer price is  £370\1000 at just cartridges

£370 less vat is £308, less material & manufacturing costs of £165 leaves £205 of which gun shop gets £20 (don't make much money on cartridges), leaving £185\1000.

That £185 is profit, general 12b  game cartridges are no different, the only model that works remotely based on cost is the low end clay cartridge market.

 

However, In reality for 12b, the difference between a similarly built 1oz clay load and and 1 1\8 game load should be £20 at retail but is instead £100+.

 

A decent 12b fibre clay cartridge at £260 (manufacturing cost £175\1000), should have an equivalent Pigeon Cartridge at £270 and a Game cartridge at £280, if margins were the same across the range.

 

 

 

 

 

[London Best]

27 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

A decent 12b fibre clay cartridge at £260 (manufacturing cost £175\1000), should have an equivalent Pigeon Cartridge at £270 and a Game cartridge at £280, if margins were the same across the range.

 

 

 

 

 

Assuming a 28 gram load, which is all I ever buy, please can you explain your perception of the difference between a “clay” cartridge, a “pigeon” cartridge and a “game” cartridge?

[Fellside]

41 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Well my mate has a shot maker but the same problem is going to happen with the supply of wads cases and perhaps the powders too.

Also it may keep a few old boys ticking over for a couple of years but no new people will be coming in to take their place.

Muzzle loaders are worried about all this too. Will they be exempt?

 

 

Re your last question - I should certainly hope so. We should press for as many exemptions as possible. Legislation is full of exemptions in other fields of law. We need to ensure that this transition is started on the strongest possible terms for the shooting community.

Each one of us needs to write to our chosen org’, which ever flavour, and also our MP, to create a good level of background awareness. The very term ‘derogation’ being included in the current ‘official language’ needs to be capitalised to our advantage in no uncertain terms!!

[Stonepark]

49 minutes ago, London Best said:

Assuming a 28 gram load, which is all I ever buy, please can you explain your perception of the difference between a “clay” cartridge, a “pigeon” cartridge and a “game” cartridge?

None for me, other than pellet size, in 12b my clay cartridge is  stamped No8.5 but is 2.3mm (Eng No7.5), my pigeon and game cartridge is stamped 7.5 but is 2.4mm (Eng No7).

For clays, my preference is FBlack Sporting (5% antimony), and for pigeon/game, Blue Diamond (3% antimony) or White Gold (5% antimony), all fibre, all 28grams and currently £290, £291 and £316 respectively from JC.

For my 410, everything is shot with 2.4mm (no7).

 

The "market" perception as peddelled by cartridge manufacturers seems to be that 28g No7.5, 3% antimony is a mid range clay cartridge, 32g no 6, 1% antimony is a pigeon cartridge and 32g no5 3% antimony is a game cartridge.

Sticking with Gamebore as an example, cartridges using similar if not identical components

We have Velocity+ (£264), 28g 3% antimony fibre 70mm

Clear Pigeon (£331) 32g 1% or 2% antimony fibre 70mm (+£65)

SuperGame High Bird (£391) 32g 3% antimony fibre 65mm and all from JC, (+£125)

but on materials cost (assuming all others are equal or equvalent) and Velocity+ as base,

CP is +£10 on lead shot weight, -£3.50 to -£7 on antimony so should be less than £7.50 more than Velocity+

SGHB is +£10 on lead shot weight, so should only be £10 more than Velocity+

Most manufacturers are similar, currently only Empire seem to price by lead mass £280(28gr), £320 (32gr) and £360 (36gr), pricing each additional gram of lead over 28gr at £10/kg, which is still at a premium but the premium is identifiable and consistant.

[NoBodyImportant]

On 23/04/2022 at 08:46, Old farrier said:

But 

what penalties are there for noncompliance?

would you loose your license and have to dispose of your guns ?

Some states yeah,  George Bush banned lead over water back in the 90s but left it to individual states to end it.  Some states it’s minimum 60days in jail plus forfeit you guns and vehicles you drove to the game land.  Some states is a $25 fine.  Not sure in NC, we had game wardens walk up on us to look at our hunting license but never checked the shells. They will pull the shells out of auto guns to make sure we only have 3 in the tube.  We also have a 3 shell in the gun limit to give birds a sporting chance. This law is strictly enforced by the hunting community.  Other hunters will run you out the parks if you a suspected of have more then 3 shells in the gun.  You can get special crop protection permits for full magazines but people look at you evil eyed.  But the City of Gastonia NC put their skeet throwers right on the edge of a pond.  Can’t hunt with lead over water but we can shoot clays with it.  

Edited April 24, 2022 by NoBodyImportant

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Some states yeah,  George Bush banned lead over water back in the 90s but left it to individual states to end it.  Some states it’s minimum 60days in jail plus forfeit you guns and vehicles you drove to the game land.  Some states is a $25 fine.  Not sure in NC, we had game wardens walk up on us to look at our hunting license but never checked the shells. They will pull the shells out of auto guns to make sure we only have 3 in the tube.  We also have a 3 shell in the gun limit to give birds a sporting chance. This law is strictly enforced by the hunting community.  Other hunters will run you out the parks if you a suspected of have more then 3 shells in the gun.  You can get special crop protection permits for full magazines but people look at you evil eyed.  But the City of Gastonia NC put their skeet throwers right on the edge of a pond.  Can’t hunt with lead over water but we can shoot clays with it.  

Yes the Game Wardens in Upstate NY are pretty aggressive about some things but totally lax about others, you can buy a .30-06 in the morning, go out to the woods in the afternoon and shoot tin cans with it totally legally. Bullets could be flying around all over place. Families out hiking nearby etc

But you cant use a .30-06 to take a buck in deer season. It has to be a shotgun with slugs because slugs don't carry.

 

Over here its the same, you cant shoot a duck with lead shot but you can sit in the same muddy hole and shoot a pigeon or a rabbit or a fox or a clay with lead shot and its totally legal

I was reading a piece, unfortunately i did not save it, in it they said umpteen millions of birds die every year from ingesting lead shot, But how would they know? Figures plucked out of thin air,

They must not be allowed to get away with this sort of emotive ***** without accountability 

[8 shot]

There was a report on the BBC News app last week saying Top Scientists visited 1500 Nature Reserves in 68 counties around the world, particulary wetland reserves and found the wildlife (Flora and Fauna) was no better off in these reserves than on adjacent land not in one and in some cases they were worse off. And probarly due to miss mangement. Bloody fasrcial in my opinion.

[Vince Green]

15 hours ago, 8 shot said:

There was a report on the BBC News app last week saying Top Scientists visited 1500 Nature Reserves in 68 counties around the world, particulary wetland reserves and found the wildlife (Flora and Fauna) was no better off in these reserves than on adjacent land not in one and in some cases they were worse off. And probarly due to miss mangement. Bloody fasrcial in my opinion.

I found this, absolutely full of unproven claims regarding numbers uf birds that die every year. Totally made up

Tackling lead ammunition poisoning our wildlife | WWT

but the bottom line is they are asking for money. Hmmmmm?

Donate | WWT

now I get it

Edited April 25, 2022 by Vince Green

[Fellside]

This isn’t the first time the BBC have used junk science and bias reporting. Actually let’s call it what it is - lying. Where is the scrutiny and challenge? They just keep getting away with it. Remarkable!! 

It’s easy to see the nature of their agenda as regards shooting. When you have a depth of understanding in this area it is plainly visible. However it also begs the question: how many other lies are they telling in various different arenas that we’re not familiar with. 

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, Fellside said:

 how many other lies are they telling in various different arenas that we’re not familiar with. 

That the NHS is wonderful . It is pretty good but the money it wastes is eye watering. Its a sacred cow, nobody can speak out against it. A bit like the BBC 

[nic]

On 06/04/2022 at 23:21, 7daysinaweek said:

I have a friend who target shoots ammo and self loads and it is costing him a fortune.

i believe that lead was still ok for target shooting as not many people cook and eat the paper targets........

[Vince Green]

8 hours ago, nic said:

i believe that lead was still ok for target shooting as not many people cook and eat the paper targets........

The trouble is shooting is littered with legislation that started small and then grew bit by bit

Thats the fear, if game cartridges with steel were dearer than clay cartridges with lead it would be hard not to imagine what would happen. Some people would always choose lead, even when they shouldn't.

Already the "lead banners" are claiming that the lead ban for wetlands is not being adhered to. I don't believe that to be true for a minute but how do you prove that?

they are out to get shooting banned completely. Thats their real agenda  

Edited April 26, 2022 by Vince Green

[Vince Green]

On 06/04/2022 at 23:21, 7daysinaweek said:

 

I can believe you. Just looked up the price of 243 hornady that I use for stalking, now approaching £35-£40 depends on where I look, fortunatley as you say not such a price imapact if you only stalk and you may be able to absorb the costs a little better. I have a friend who target shoots ammo and self loads and it is costing him a fortune.

All centrefire ammo has gone up by much more than inflation or the cost of metals these past few years. Thats if you can get it.

Reloading is no cheaper, components have gone up the same way and shortages are a constant problem too

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

All centrefire ammo has gone up by much more than inflation or the cost of metals these past few years. Thats if you can get it.

Reloading is no cheaper, components have gone up the same way and shortages are a constant problem too

By banning low (sub 2000fps) velocity lead bullets from deer hunting, they intentionally made ammo more expensive and difficult to obtain.

 

If you can reuse brass, and only need a primer, some powder and a home made swaged lead bullet, your reliance on distribution chains is very much reduced.

[nic]

21 hours ago, Vince Green said:

 

Already the "lead banners" are claiming that the lead ban for wetlands is not being adhered to. I don't believe that to be true for a minute but how do you prove that?

 

unfortunately when checks don at game dealers, duck found with lead pellets.  this indicates game shoots not complying as wildfowlers do not shoot enough to warrant putting to a dealer.   also in England/Wales law is species specific rather than Scotland where it is wetland specific )high makes more scientific sense)

[stagboy]

Let's face it, lead is going, it's just a matter of when and how fast. Continuing to deny that lead ammunition is a problem is is a futile rearguard action that merely makes us look ridiculous and divided. If we don't switch voluntarily, a legal ban will be imposed on us. In fact, it might be imposed anyway - and we'll have to fight hard for any exemptions for muzzleloaders and small bores.

The cartridge manufacturers have already produced some good alternatives for game shooting with various biowads etc, and more are in the pipeline. Whether we will have enough quantity available  before a legal ban comes in is another matter. There are  global shortages of all types of ammunition and components. 

As for CF rifles, stalkers are already changing and have plenty of choice, with more coming onstream. (Sadly, I have yet to see a really effective non-lead option for the .22RF. perhaps the advent of the .17 etc has finished it anyway). Every estate I stalk on now insists on non-toxic, as does every state landowner that I know of. 

It's the shotgunners who are still overly dependant on lead. If we don't get away from our over-reliance on lead, live quarry shooting will follow lead down the plughole. Time is running out.     

The Danes got rid of lead more than 20 years ago and danish hunters  have actually asked for a legal ban on plastic wads. They have a thriving hunting community, with driven shooting, rough shooting, wildfowling and stalking. If they can do it, so can we.

[8 shot]

3 hours ago, stagboy said:

The Danes got rid of lead more than 20 years ago and danish hunters  have actually asked for a legal ban on plastic wads. They have a thriving hunting community, with driven shooting, rough shooting, wildfowling and stalking. If they can do it, so can we.

Is that why most of em come over here shooting the high bird shoots and pigeon, just saying.

[Stonepark]

The Dane hunting organisations, just like our own are "woke" when it comes to lead, they have just been "woke" for longer.

 

Yes, they are using steel, no the average hunter doesn't like it and would prefer lead, but it their only option when lead was banned against their wishes and a whole generation has known nothing else.

[7daysinaweek]

On 26/04/2022 at 16:32, Vince Green said:

All centrefire ammo has gone up by much more than inflation or the cost of metals these past few years. Thats if you can get it.

Reloading is no cheaper, components have gone up the same way and shortages are a constant problem too

Cheers for the reply Vince.

I have had some difficulties getting one brand of 243 that my rifle really likes, cannot get it anywhere near close to me. Last two years I have been using it's 2nd favourite ammo, still good, but the search goes on.

 

On 26/04/2022 at 07:28, nic said:

i believe that lead was still ok for target shooting as not many people cook and eat the paper targets........

He was talking about costs overall.

[Old farrier]

The latest affordable option for your 410 

[enfieldspares]

Has the poster of the above Lyalvale advert any idea of the number of pellets in 28 gram bismuth #5 or, in .410" in 16  gram bismuth #5? The patterns will be pitiful, totally inadequate for woodcock and marginal at best for walked up partridge or walked up pheasant. Or does a dog and picker-up come free with every slab of such cartridges? The amount of game wounded and not killed will be great and the amount of birds pricked with one or two pellets that fly on beyond counting. 

[Old farrier]

26 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Has the poster of the above Lyalvale advert any idea of the number of pellets in 28 gram bismuth #5 or, in .410" in 16  gram bismuth #5? The patterns will be pitiful, totally inadequate for woodcock and marginal at best for walked up partridge or walked up pheasant. Or does a dog and picker-up come free with every slab of such cartridges? The amount of game wounded and not killed will be great and the amount of birds pricked with one or two pellets that fly on beyond counting. 

I’ve got a good idea how few pellets there are as I said (affordable) not effective 

the photo is from this month’s magazine 

 

[enfieldspares]

Noted the above. What is taking the pi$$ is that 32 gram in 12 bore are £1405 per 1000 and half that shot load, 16 gram in .410" is £1365. Given that the cost of the 32 kilograms of bismuth in 1000 12 bore 32 gram is X one can only wonder why the cost of  1000 cartridges in .410" is not even 2/3 or 3/4 of X?

[Scully]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

 The patterns will be pitiful, totally inadequate for woodcock and marginal at best for walked up partridge or walked up pheasant. Or does a dog and picker-up come free with every slab of such cartridges? The amount of game wounded and not killed will be great and the amount of birds pricked with one or two pellets that fly on beyond counting. 

How do you know any of that simply by looking at an advert? 🤔

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

How do you know any of that simply by looking at an advert? 🤔

I'm wondering if the "pitiful" relates to density and not quality of distribution. The shot sizes shown are English and for a knowledgeable 410 shooter who knows its limits there should be no problem. Consequently, this doesn't concern me. What does to an extent, is the pricing that the same poster identifies. Now, I don't know but will find out whether or not we're actually looking at an advert. If so, fine, but should the piece be an article by - or with the approval of - BASC then that is an altogether different ballpark  and reflects the direction that the Organisation is taking its members - those for whom c£1500 is acceptably "affordable" anyway - all the others will have left 'ere long.