UK REACH – Restriction Proposals 004 - Lead shot in ammunition

[Pushandpull]

This is a government consultation. Its arrival is entirely predictable and it appears to be broadly in line with what is happening in other European countries.

So not very good news for many of us.

We must therefore look to our organisations to work for acceptable mitigations and to inform our individual responses. I fail to see how BASC or any other organisation can be blamed for this happening. Back in the day, folk were blaming (and still do blame) BASC for the ban on lead for wildfowling. But in reality the fate of lead was sealed when H.M. government signed the African Eurasian Waterfowl Agreement. All BASC could really do was manage a fighting retreat which allowed the time to develop effective non-toxic ammunition, but there was no way they could turn back the tide.

[Ferretlurcher1970]

The vast number of wildfowlers I know would leave basc , however wildfowling clubs due to the historic link insist on membership

[Pushandpull]

Ferretlurcher, it is more than a historic link. For example, BASC represents wildfowling interests on the Joint Tidal Group whether we like it or not. You are correct of course that there is dissatisfaction especially over the inaction over consents. Let's kick them when they are at fault !  However this a long way from the broader lead problem.

[Ferretlurcher1970]

Basc has lost its way. Is now a machine out of control . They now believe they now best. If you dig out your old basc magazines we have all been being prepared for lead ban for several years, basc who should have fought it , promoted it.

[Newbie to this]

14 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Thanks Conor, sold us all down the river.  Let's hope BASC soon goes to the wall.

[Newbie to this]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I just looked on line and BASC still maintain they have 150 000 Members.

Struggling to accept that as a genuine figure I am afraid.

That should be fast approaching 0

[Fellside]

55 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

This is a government consultation. Its arrival is entirely predictable and it appears to be broadly in line with what is happening in other European countries.

So not very good news for many of us.

We must therefore look to our organisations to work for acceptable mitigations and to inform our individual responses. I fail to see how BASC or any other organisation can be blamed for this happening. Back in the day, folk were blaming (and still do blame) BASC for the ban on lead for wildfowling. But in reality the fate of lead was sealed when H.M. government signed the African Eurasian Waterfowl Agreement. All BASC could really do was manage a fighting retreat which allowed the time to develop effective non-toxic ammunition, but there was no way they could turn back the tide.

Some of us are quite capable of informing our own individual responses - which is fortunate in the absence of any steer whatsoever from BASC. I would estimate that there’s a huge amount of experience and knowledge among PW members, which should form an important contribution. 

For anyone considering a response, pour yourself a cuppa then just click on the link and start - it’s as simple as that! 

[Newbie to this]

[Old farrier]

22 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Some of us are quite capable of informing our own individual responses - which is fortunate in the absence of any steer whatsoever from BASC. I would estimate that there’s a huge amount of experience and knowledge among PW members, which should form an important contribution. 

For anyone considering a response, pour yourself a cuppa then just click on the link and start - it’s as simple as that! 

It’s easy enough 

however I don’t feel it geared towards a individual response 

also a lot of discrimination in some of the questions 

why ? 
why should a elite athlete be treated any different from a ordinary person 

how do you become elite if you can’t practice with the same equipment?

[holloway]

1 hour ago, Ferretlurcher1970 said:

The vast number of wildfowlers I know would leave basc , however wildfowling clubs due to the historic link insist on membership

And an awful lot of wildfowling clubs would struggle to renew there shooting leases without Basc s assistance they have to jump through hoops.

[Ferretlurcher1970]

Which we pay there wage to do so

Humber ?

Gedney

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

how do you become elite if you can’t practice with the same equipment?

Join the CPSA, shoot a few registered shoots job done they will never be able to define an elite shooter. I can see FITASC, English Sporting  and Sim Days all fall by the way side. The CPSA can really benefit from this if they go about there business properly.

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

It’s easy enough 

however I don’t feel it geared towards a individual response 

also a lot of discrimination in some of the questions 

why ? 
why should a elite athlete be treated any different from a ordinary person 

how do you become elite if you can’t practice with the same equipment?

Yes I agree re discrimination and also clunky language and descriptions. Plenty of opportunity to point those out in the response boxes though.  I see the Environment Agency have chipped in too…?!

[8 shot]

17 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I see the Environment Agency have chipped in too…?!

Wouldn't worry about that useless bunch of t**ts they banned muck spreading in the autumn last year, then realised there would be millions of tonnes of humun sludge waste going to landfill or dumped in the sea as an emergency measure. Reminds me of the shooting organisations really, will say anything just to be heard and justify there being.

Edited May 7, 2022 by 8 shot

[Minky]

23 hours ago, adzyvilla said:

Yep, nothing we say or do matters its happening. Cheers BASC et al good job.

The same thing happened back when we all marched in London back when.  Total waste of time the orgs.

8 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I just looked on line and BASC still maintain they have 150 000 Members.

Struggling to accept that as a genuine figure I am afraid.

they may have but they won't when no one is taking membership because they can't shoot anywhere.   For years I have been saying that basic was corrupt and a waste of space.  Not fit for purpose.  But I  have been poo, pooed many times.  How many people on here have said that they are in basic for the shooting insurance which can be gotten from numerous third parties for £30.  Still they wouldn't get the quarterly basic mag........ which is mainly full of adverts.

[grahamch]

Seems plenty of BASC bashing here but the other representative bodies have been deafeningly quiet on this subject. 

[Smokersmith]

It seems like a lot of folks think this REACH proposal is from BASC  … it isn’t.

As popular as it is to bash them, now is the time to come together.

[mellors]

5 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

It seems like a lot of folks think this REACH proposal is from BASC  … it isn’t.

As popular as it is to bash them, now is the time to come together.

I think we all know that but they never once asked the membership. 

Just pressing for time for sustainable alternatives to be found would have been a start. 

Its done now.

I switched to steel 3 years ago but I'd like to see more push for bio wads especially for reloading but i can't see that happening. 

[Ferretlurcher1970]

Can ask 

Which way did people vote on basc promoting the ban on lead ? Can't remember that one.

Tail that wags the dog.

Basc keep saying there the leading group act like it.

[mellors]

20 minutes ago, Ferretlurcher1970 said:

Can ask 

Which way did people vote on basc promoting the ban on lead ? Can't remember that one.

Tail that wags the dog.

Basc keep saying there the leading group act like it.

We'll have to wait for there glowing reports from there freebie days at catton promoting steel. 

I've been a member of my local wildfowling club wagbi basc member for over 50 years and i only stay hoping i help at least one young member get on the road to a fantastic sport albeit maybe not as long a me the way things are going .  

I'm disappointed with them to say tbe least. 

[Scully]

On 06/05/2022 at 17:57, enfieldspares said:

As I have said here and/or elsewhere there must be no derogation for "licensed athletes" (that is Commonwealth and Olympic Games shooters) the ban if it is to come must be for everybody. For else wise those who could and would make a difference (that is Commonwealth and Olympic Games shooters) will have not interest in fighting a ban. Just as they had no interest in 1996 in fighting the Tory fullbore pistol and subsequent Labour small bore pistol bans. There must be no "I'm alright Jack" escape from any ban for a self-appointed coterie of "licensed athletes".

👍

11 hours ago, Pushandpull said:

This is a government consultation. Its arrival is entirely predictable and it appears to be broadly in line with what is happening in other European countries.

So not very good news for many of us.

We must therefore look to our organisations to work for acceptable mitigations and to inform our individual responses. I fail to see how BASC or any other organisation can be blamed for this happening. Back in the day, folk were blaming (and still do blame) BASC for the ban on lead for wildfowling. But in reality the fate of lead was sealed when H.M. government signed the African Eurasian Waterfowl Agreement. All BASC could really do was manage a fighting retreat which allowed the time to develop effective non-toxic ammunition, but there was no way they could turn back the tide.

I quite agree. 

[enfieldspares]

If you read the HSE proposals you'll see this...
 

Quote

Lead shot is banned for use over wetlands within the UK, so alternatives are already available on the GB market, especially steel shot. Some shooters have already made the transition to these, and a number of UK shooting and rural organisations have voluntarily committed to using alternatives to lead shot for the hunting of live quarry by 2025, whilst some supermarkets have also committed to only selling game meat from animals killed using non-lead ammunition. Lead shot is not used for indoor shooting, so a ban on sale would not have knock-on consequences for low risk uses. It would also be readily enforceable as there would be no legal use for lead shot. A ban on the sale and use of lead shot is therefore considered practical.

So there you go. It is indeed, it could be argued, all BASC's fault as clearly the HSE have clearly jumped on the BASC lead ban announcement to then use that to justify a ban on the sale of lead shot as practical because "a number of UK shooting and rural organisations have voluntarily committed to using alternatives to lead shot....".

It should be clear to ALL that whatever money is spent from members' subscriptions on any "political officers" at Marford Mill is money down the lavatory. It'd be kind to call the process that as has led to this as naive. Probably less kind to call it incompetence. For what BASC with their voluntary ban document of February 2020 gifted to the HSE has now been used as justification for these extreme and harsh proposals.

A clear demonstration of diplomatic skills and foresight last seen from the likes of Neville Chamberlain at Munich is maybe an apt comparison? Actions have consequences and actions not thought through have damning consequences. Simply put some at Marford Mill appear to me so gullibly inept as to be not fit for the leadership of this self titled "voice of shooting" that its members pay for.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

If you read the HSE proposals you'll see this...
 

So there you go. It is indeed, it could be argued, all BASC's fault as clearly the HSE have clearly jumped on the BASC lead ban announcement to then use that to justify a ban on the sale of lead shot as practical because "a number of UK shooting and rural organisations have voluntarily committed to using alternatives to lead shot....".

It should be clear to ALL that whatever money is spent from members' subscriptions on any "political officers" at Marford Mill is money down the lavatory. It'd be kind to call the process that as has led to this as naive. Probably less kind to call it incompetence. For what BASC with their voluntary ban document of February 2020 gifted to the HSE has now been used as justification for these extreme and harsh proposals.

A clear demonstration of diplomatic skills and foresight last seen from the likes of Neville Chamberlain at Munich is maybe an apt comparison? Actions have consequences and actions not thought through have damning consequences. Simply put some at Marford Mill appear to me so gullibly inept as to be not fit for the leadership of this self titled "voice of shooting" that its members pay for.

Yes, I think that puts it rather nicely, we have been "Sold down the river".............................................................................

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Yes, I think that puts it rather nicely, we have been "Sold down the river".............................................................................

What further needs to be taken on by those that claim to be a "voice for shooting" is the possible knock on effect on reloading and the possession or value of such tools.

1) At a best case things may remain unchanged and stay the same for pistol, rifle, shotgun reloading. Save that some powder makers will not bother to produce data for non-lead bulleted cartridges or non-lead shot shotshells. For sure the old loading manuals will become redundant. I doubt also that such data will be made available for discontinued powders such as H414 and Etc.. The Lyman "Cast Bullets Handbook", RCBS #10 Manual and Etc, will be fit only for levelling the short leg on a "wonky" table.

2) Certainly moulds, sizing dies, lubrisizer machines, lead melting furnaces, bullet lubricant "sticks", bullet swaging equipment for home production of lead bullets and lead shot trickler machines to make lead shot by a short drop may become redundant and unsaleable. If you can no longer legally use such what is the value of equipment that has absolutely no use but to make bullets of lead of containing lead?

3) Reloading may be banned maybe on the belief that "some shooters are circumventing the ban by "making their own bullets or shot" and then "loading their own ammunition with lead bullets or lead shot" and I fear that there WILL be calls for this from the usual suspects that are opposed to shooting.

So I hope that input needs NOW to be made about compensation for such things and that compensation must be from the public purse as with the handgun ban in 1996.

I am not a member of BASC but of the CPSA. Those who are members of BASC and Etc, will, I hope ask the question of those organisations as I will be doing of CPSA as to what input they will make regarding home reloading.

[8 shot]

I will be joining the CPSA in September when my BASC membership dies of self inflicted injuries, I did speak to a NGO rep and i had to put the phone down on him, his views were anti tradition, almost anti shooting. The buy back/ compensation thing will be very interesting, lets see how that pans out.