BASC - Ammunition Use Survey

[8 shot]

Just another BASC stitch up 

[Scully]

Anyone who has filled in the REACH ( HSE ) survey recently has already given out this information. The REACH survey was asking individuals for answer to questions they stated weren’t readily available, whereas I would have thought the shooting organisations would already have such information, so who knows why BASC are asking this. 
None of our shooting orgs ever seem to ask the most obvious or relevant questions regarding the things which are uppermost in the minds if UK shooters. It’s quite bizarre and very perplexing. 

[HantsRob]

On 08/10/2022 at 08:20, Old farrier said:

Very good post 

also very true 👍

Thankyou  

are you over any time soon? Would be good for a brew and catch-up face to face. 

[Minky]

For many years basic have been a complete waste of time and effort and almost anti shooting.  At every opportunity they have conspired against the interests of shooters and gone headlong into any cranky idea to look good. such as the dSc series.  suddenly every feo jumped on the bandwagon demanding mentoring and dsc1 or 2 etc.  Kwis has run them ragged.  They give him great entertainment and I'm sure he consults them for ways to restrict any hunting activity.  Why pay the yearly sub when you can get better shooting insurance from people who specialise in insurance and shooting related matters for about £30 ish .

All reminds me of a country show day and all they were interested in was how many raffle tickets did I want to buy and did I want a credit card, house insurance, car insurance, holiday insurance .  Shooting....They wouldn't have known the blunt end from the pointy bit

Edited October 10, 2022 by Minky

[Newbie to this]

11 hours ago, Minky said:

headlong into any cranky idea to look good. such as the dSc series.

Cranky idea to you, money maker to them.

[London Best]

I am sure it was not BASC who started the DSC.

[old man]

May have been a British Deer Society welfare initiative?

[Mullard83]

On ‎06‎/‎10‎/‎2022 at 20:21, Newbie to this said:

What an absolute joke, I hope you cancelled your membership on the spot.

No say in it really, as my membership is part of eley district wildfowling clubs membership package. I could stop my membership with the club, but they wildfowling washes are not far from me.

Dan.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Hope this helps clarify things.

The BASC ammunition use survey was emailed to a random selection of 15,000 BASC members in England, Wales and Scotland to gather evidence on the current use of lead and non-lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles. A randomised selection of members is standard methodology for our surveys. We will use the survey results as part of our response to the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) consultation on its proposals to ban most outdoor recreational uses of lead ammunition in England, Wales and Scotland.

BASC’s position on the HSE lead restriction proposals is as follows:

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for live quarry shooting
The restrictions must be evidence-based and proportionate to the risk and work to realistic transition periods that account for global supply chain issues.

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for target shooting
BASC is opposed to the restriction proposals because lead ammunition can continue to be used for most forms of target shooting where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled through the application of existing directives and regulations.

Lead airgun pellets for live quarry and target shooting
BASC is opposed to the restriction proposals because lead airgun pellets can continue to be used for live quarry and target shooting where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled through the application of existing directives, regulations, and best practice guidance.

For more information visit:
www.basc.org.uk/looking-at-lead/

Edited October 11, 2022 by Conor O'Gorman

[rbrowning2]

5 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Hope this helps clarify things.

The BASC ammunition use survey was emailed to a random selection of 15,000 BASC members in England, Wales and Scotland to gather evidence on the current use of lead and non-lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles. A randomised selection of members is standard methodology for our surveys. We will use the survey results as part of our response to the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) consultation on its proposals to ban most outdoor recreational uses of lead ammunition in England, Wales and Scotland.

BASC’s position on the HSE lead restriction proposals is as follows:

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for live quarry shooting
The restrictions must be evidence-based and proportionate to the risk and work to realistic transition periods that account for global supply chain issues.

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for target shooting
BASC is opposed to the restriction proposals because lead ammunition can continue to be used for most forms of target shooting where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled through the application of existing directives and regulations.

Lead airgun pellets for live quarry and target shooting
BASC is opposed to the restriction proposals because lead airgun pellets can continue to be used for live quarry and target shooting where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled through the application of existing directives, regulations, and best practice guidance.

For more information visit:
www.basc.org.uk/looking-at-lead/

 So around 10% of your members have been asked to participate in the survey on what is a very important issue, if not the biggest threat facing the future of all shooting. Given the data you collect will be electronic so easy to number crunch and not all of the 10% will respond, plus potentially offending 90% of your members who feel ignored I personally think on such a key issue you should have asked all of your members to complete the survey.

Then

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for target shooting
BASC is opposed to the restriction proposals because lead ammunition can continue to be used for most forms of target shooting where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled through the application of existing directives and regulations.

for Clay pigeon target shooting what does, where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled through the application of existing directives and regulations, look like in practice in the real world.

Edited October 11, 2022 by rbrowning2

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 11/10/2022 at 18:57, rbrowning2 said:

 So around 10% of your members have been asked to participate in the survey on what is a very important issue, if not the biggest threat facing the future of all shooting. Given the data you collect will be electronic so easy to number crunch and not all of the 10% will respond, plus potentially offending 90% of your members who feel ignored I personally think on such a key issue you should have asked all of your members to complete the survey.

Then

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for target shooting
BASC is opposed to the restriction proposals because lead ammunition can continue to be used for most forms of target shooting where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled through the application of existing directives and regulations.

for Clay pigeon target shooting what does, where risks are appropriately and proportionately controlled through the application of existing directives and regulations, look like in practice in the real world.

BASC's research team carries out many surveys every year and a variety of sample sizes and methods are used. For this particular ammunition survey (it's not the first nor the last survey on ammunition) the approach taken was, as outlined above, to a randomised sample of BASC members to help inform our consultation response. All members have been encouraged several times by email and in our members magazine to respond directly to the HSE consultation, which closes on 6th November.

If you have not already done so please click the link below to respond to the consultation. Most people are simply answering the ‘general comments’ question on the second page of the survey form. 

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/restriction-proposals-004/

To address your other query HSE proposals look at potential exposure risks for lead ammunition on soil, soil organisms, plants, livestock, water quality and so on. 

The point is that there are existing regulations that deal with such exposure risks, many of them EU directives which have been retained in UK law. If such directives are followed and enforced (which they should already be) then why is further regulation under UK REACH necessary?

•    Regulation 1881/2006 that limits lead in food for human consumption, 
•    Regulation 1275/2013 that limits lead in animal feed, and 
•    DIRECTIVE 2002/32/EC on undesirable substances in animal feed
•    Water Framework Directive (Standards and Classification) Directions (England and Wales) 2015 
•    Scotland River Basin District (Standards) Amendment Directions 2015 applies. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Conor O'Gorman

[Minky]

It's such a bad situation where so many shooters that I know are so totally hacked off with ANYTHING that basic does that they either have packed up shooting or don't engage with any of the shooting orgs at all.  How many years ago did we all go to London to march.? Did that do any good?  Did any representations about banning lead have any effect.? Having to pay out for doctors certificates. ? The delays in the issue of certificates.  The debacle of the annual species lists.  The fact that KWIS organised crowd funding and   ran circles around this org and made a laughing  stock of the whole outfit.  All in all a whole rake of catastrophes.   Not very good is it. It's because I  care that I have  bothered to respond at all the majority don't bother because it's a waste of time.  I think that there were more recorded offences with air rifle than air rifle users who responded to the defra survey.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Minky

[harkom]

On 10/10/2022 at 20:17, Minky said:

For many years basic have been a complete waste of time and effort and almost anti shooting.  At every opportunity they have conspired against the interests of shooters and gone headlong into any cranky idea to look good. such as the dSc series.  suddenly every feo jumped on the bandwagon demanding mentoring and dsc1 or 2 etc.  Kwis has run them ragged.  They give him great entertainment and I'm sure he consults them for ways to restrict any hunting activity.  Why pay the yearly sub when you can get better shooting insurance from people who specialise in insurance and shooting related matters for about £30 ish .

All reminds me of a country show day and all they were interested in was how many raffle tickets did I want to buy and did I want a credit card, house insurance, car insurance, holiday insurance .  Shooting....They wouldn't have known the blunt end from the pointy bit

👍

[8 shot]

Similar things have and are happening in agriculture, Orgs like the NFU, DEFRA, Natural England Etc. all set up to help farmers  promote agriculture end up profiteering from and turning against the very people paying there wages. Then when there is a cause for them to use there "Expertise" all they show just how out of touch they are with there membership and pretty much throw them under the bus

[rbrowning2]

4 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC's research team carries out many surveys every year and a variety of sample sizes and methods are used. For this particular ammunition survey (it's not the first nor the last survey on ammunition) the approach taken was, as outlined above, to a randomised sample of BASC members to help inform our consultation response. All members have been encouraged several times by email and in our members magazine to respond directly to the HSE consultation, which closes on 6th November.

If you have not already done so please click the link below to respond to the consultation. Most people are simply answering the ‘general comments’ question on the second page of the survey form. 

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/restriction-proposals-004/

To address your other query HSE proposals look at potential exposure risks for lead ammunition on soil, soil organisms, plants, livestock, water quality and so on. 

The point is that there are existing regulations that deal with such exposure risks, many of them EU directives which have been retained in UK law. If such directives are followed and enforced (which they should already be) then why is further regulation under UK REACH necessary?

•    Regulation 1881/2006 that limits lead in food for human consumption, 
•    Regulation 1275/2013 that limits lead in animal feed, and 
•    DIRECTIVE 2002/32/EC on undesirable substances in animal feed
•    Water Framework Directive (Standards and Classification) Directions (England and Wales) 2015 
•    Scotland River Basin District (Standards) Amendment Directions 2015 applies. 

Having been a member of BASC for many years I must be the unlucky member, as despite your many surveys a year and several on ammunition I have never been asked to participate in a single one, that I can remember.

Yes for what it is worth I have responded about the HSE consultation, however with every shooting related email received from shooting organisations or shooting media, like guns on pegs, shooting times, etc, etc, all contains articles praising the pushing steel shot one has to conclude that the HSE will think we are all in favour of a lead ban.  

Given only around 4% of all cartridges sold in the U.K. are non-toxic shot, where will all the steel shot suddenly come from? and then biodegradable wads in name, but a few look in practice look to require industrial composting conditions, which are not present in the english countryside.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by rbrowning2

[Minky]

The dealer that I get reloading components from won't stock plaswds for steel shot or any powders etc.   I asked about how we were going to produce the required loads and he just shrugged his shoulders.  As a different  angle in regard to guns suitable for steel loads.  Maybe many aren't, bit seeing as you can't give guns away or the price is so low, what's It matter. As long as it is Light choked and covers the pressures I'd use one.  Whats it matter if the barrells get scored up.  I think that at the bottom of the lyvale (not sure)web page there was a statement from the managing director that basically booted basic over the moon about cartridges.   This statement said that none of the major producers had been consulted by basic about cartridges and component availability before making an announcement that by year x that there would be no lead or plastic in cartridges.  This just shows how out of touch not only with shooters wants and the cartridge manufactures basic are.  Instead of going along with these crackpot ideas, basic should  Try saying that they aren't wanted or necessary.   Like the anti drug adverts just say no.  Because I  care I will persistently call stuff like this out..... and so should every shooter who wants to continue shooting because the light at the end of the tunnel is getting dimmer.

[8 shot]

52 minutes ago, Minky said:

The dealer that I get reloading components from won't stock plaswds for steel shot or any powders etc.   I asked about how we were going to produce the required loads and he just shrugged his shoulders.  As a different  angle in regard to guns suitable for steel loads.  Maybe many aren't, bit seeing as you can't give guns away or the price is so low, what's It matter. As long as it is Light choked and covers the pressures I'd use one.  Whats it matter if the barrells get scored up.  I think that at the bottom of the lyvale (not sure)web page there was a statement from the managing director that basically booted basic over the moon about cartridges.   This statement said that none of the major producers had been consulted by basic about cartridges and component availability before making an announcement that by year x that there would be no lead or plastic in cartridges.  This just shows how out of touch not only with shooters wants and the cartridge manufactures basic are.  Instead of going along with these crackpot ideas, basic should  Try saying that they aren't wanted or necessary.   Like the anti drug adverts just say no.  Because I  care I will persistently call stuff like this out..... and so should every shooter who wants to continue shooting because the light at the end of the tunnel is getting dimmer.

👍

[marktattoo]

not been a member of BASC for many years, for various reasons , funny enough was speaking with a friend on our local farm shoot who was complaining about the price increase, told him wasn't a member and haven't been for many years . The so called voluntary ban was one of the reasons I left , but not the only one look at most of the reasons why people have left over the last few years the BASC are basically not interested on why members leave . Anyways surveys I find annoying general rigged to what they want the answers to say , rather than give us your opinions in your own words . rather than a,b or c answers and that's not a dig at BASC , I say the same at work with staff surveys . 

I have yet to be convinced on using steel or alloys as a alternative to lead, I have got some steel cartridges to try so will reserve judgement on the as yet, but tried non lead airgun pellets the other week, I wasn't convinced the rifles didn't group well compared to lead pellets . I also wasn't convinced with the knock over power with the pellets in comparison to lead.

[London Best]

If you have not yet tried steel/bismuth/alloys what have you been shooting ducks with for the last twenty odd years? Or do you not ever shoot any wildfowl?

[wymberley]

4 hours ago, London Best said:

If you have not yet tried steel/bismuth/alloys what have you been shooting ducks with for the last twenty odd years? Or do you not ever shoot any wildfowl?

After a bit of a do on Findhorn, I was forced to admit to myself that I was a liability on the marsh so have not shot 'fowl since '75. Are we supposed to? Marktattoo didn't mention them. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

On 14/10/2022 at 21:00, 8 shot said:

Similar things have and are happening in agriculture, Orgs like the NFU, DEFRA, Natural England Etc. all set up to help farmers  promote agriculture end up profiteering from and turning against the very people paying there wages. Then when there is a cause for them to use there "Expertise" all they show just how out of touch they are with there membership and pretty much throw them under the bus

Careful, we are not allowed to criticise BASC.   

[Minky]

And suddenly the thread went dry. Shooting is really on its heels.  A retired friend acts as a range officer at a smallbore club and although there are quite a lot of members on paper hardly anyone turns up to actually shoot.   He says that it's hardly worth opening the club.  A lot of gun shops in the south east have closed down and it isn't easy.  Still I suppose that we could revert back to catapults or chucking spears at a cardboard box because that's where we're headed.

[cardigun]

Minky.

The organisation is called BASC, not basic.

I have used Eley Hawk game Steel cartridges for a season, and they work fine.  They cost much the same as good game cartridges in lead.

[Rewulf]

Listen to what the BASC rep says at 1.30

A damning report anyway, on the way many of our shooting orgs , put themselves before the shooters.

 

[harkom]

On 04/12/2022 at 11:24, cardigun said:

The organisation is called BASC, not basic.

 

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