Dave Carrie using Steel at Warter Priory

[TIGHTCHOKE]

 

37 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I can understand how you can 'scan' shot game and detect steel (it is quite easy to use a magnetic type detector that will respond to 'ferrous' metal). 

What I don't understand is how you can differentiate lead from say tungsten matrix or bismuth?  I can only think that you would have to dissect the bird, recover the shot, then have it tested. 

Does anyone know if there is a process to non-invasively differentiate between lead and bismuth or tungsten easily in a shot bird?

Our little shoot consumes all it shoots within the team, so it is unimportant to us at present, and I'm perfectly happy to eat game shot with lead (as I have been doing for about 60 years).  I also don't look forward to my (now a bit fragile) molars encountering a piece if steel shot!

I refer you to my earlier answer!

"Well, presumably Wild Justice will have to buy any game they wish to investigate, so that's one good point."

[Smudger687]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I can understand how you can 'scan' shot game and detect steel (it is quite easy to use a magnetic type detector that will respond to 'ferrous' metal). 

What I don't understand is how you can differentiate lead from say tungsten matrix or bismuth?  I can only think that you would have to dissect the bird, recover the shot, then have it tested. 

Does anyone know if there is a process to non-invasively differentiate between lead and bismuth or tungsten easily in a shot bird?

Our little shoot consumes all it shoots within the team, so it is unimportant to us at present, and I'm perfectly happy to eat game shot with lead (as I have been doing for about 60 years).  I also don't look forward to my (now a bit fragile) molars encountering a piece if steel shot!

I suspect a certain number of birds will be randomly selected, dissected and any recovered shot tested from each batch of birds. 

I doubt anyone would go down the magnet route because there will be plenty of birds where even steel shot will have gone completely through them and would thus need to chucked.

 

[Bigdavet]

On 22/01/2023 at 13:42, Ttfjlc said:

@alastair0903 hopefully this link works

And how much do 34 gram 3’s in bithmus cost for 250 ? 

[Ttfjlc]

4 hours ago, Bigdavet said:

And how much do 34 gram 3’s in bithmus cost for 250 ? 

Most likely a lot more than I’d be willing to pay  

[Bigdavet]

6 hours ago, Ttfjlc said:

Most likely a lot more than I’d be willing to pay  

Yes you and me both ! I would imagine they where FOC curtsey of Gamebore 

[Ttfjlc]

1 hour ago, Bigdavet said:

Yes you and me both ! I would imagine they where FOC curtsey of Gamebore 

To be honest I can only assume they were featured to showcase what they have out or in the pipeline, ‘look what hp steel can do!….plus a bit of Bismuth’ 🙄

[stockybasher]

 

Comparative costs from Just Cartridges:

Dark Storm Precision Steel with Bio-Wad 12Ga From £508.00 / 1000

Dark Storm Precision Steel 3" with Bio-Wad 12Ga From £624.00 / 1000

Dark Storm Bismuth with Quad Seal 12Ga From £1,649.00 / 1000

In his film, DC said he was shooting 3/4 choke in both barrels, which is above the recognised 1/2 choke max recommended by the Proof House, (recently recommended reduction to 1/4 choke by some cartridge manufacturers), but DC is content that his "new" MK will handle that.

Time will tell !!

As shooters, we live in difficult times !!

 

 

 

 

 

 

SELECT OPTIONS

 

[scarecrow243]

why don't these people trying to ban lead shot speak to Norway the first country to ban lead shot for all shooting they have over turned that ban because there was no proof of lead poisoning  and steel is damaging the guns

[Dave at kelton]

1 hour ago, stockybasher said:

 

Comparative costs from Just Cartridges:

Dark Storm Precision Steel with Bio-Wad 12Ga From £508.00 / 1000

Dark Storm Precision Steel 3" with Bio-Wad 12Ga From £624.00 / 1000

Dark Storm Bismuth with Quad Seal 12Ga From £1,649.00 / 1000

In his film, DC said he was shooting 3/4 choke in both barrels, which is above the recognised 1/2 choke max recommended by the Proof House, (recently recommended reduction to 1/4 choke by some cartridge manufacturers), but DC is content that his "new" MK will handle that.

Time will tell !!

As shooters, we live in difficult times !!

 

 

 

 

 

 

SELECT OPTIONS

 

I might have misheard and you may be correct but I thought he said the 3/4 choke was for the bismuth. Interesting to note he went back to steel as he saw no discernible difference. From my own experience of patterning steel in wildfowl loads and the few boxes I have shot at game I wouldn’t go above 1/2 choke in steel irrespective of whether the gun can handle it physically.

[Scully]

9 hours ago, scarecrow243 said:

why don't these people trying to ban lead shot speak to Norway the first country to ban lead shot for all shooting they have over turned that ban because there was no proof of lead poisoning  and steel is damaging the guns

Because it’s not about lead shot, it’s about politics. 
The people trying to ban lead shot over here couldn’t care less about proof of poisoning or whether steel damages guns. We don’t have a tradition of hunting in the UK; people couldn’t care less. 

[stockybasher]

9 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

I might have misheard and you may be correct but I thought he said the 3/4 choke was for the bismuth. Interesting to note he went back to steel as he saw no discernible difference. From my own experience of patterning steel in wildfowl loads and the few boxes I have shot at game I wouldn’t go above 1/2 choke in steel irrespective of whether the gun can handle it physically.

Hi Dave at Kelton   

In his Questions on U Tube he says the following:

"What chokes are you using with the steel Dave,ive teague half and half extended in my miroku"

 

Reply

Dave Carrie Shooting

2 days ago

Steel 3/4 3/4

The new miroku MK game guns I use on steel are specked up for high performance steel loads , although “they“ (the gun manufacturers) recommend 1/2 choke and less for bigger pellets ! I don’t take much notice of that and tend to do my own thing and trust my equipment more than the manufacturers tend to do!! They’re always watching their *** !

 

 

 

 

[DUNKS]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Because it’s not about lead shot, it’s about politics. 
The people trying to ban lead shot over here couldn’t care less about proof of poisoning or whether steel damages guns. We don’t have a tradition of hunting in the UK; people couldn’t care less. 

Very true!

[Dave at kelton]

3 hours ago, stockybasher said:

Hi Dave at Kelton   

In his Questions on U Tube he says the following:

"What chokes are you using with the steel Dave,ive teague half and half extended in my miroku"

 

Reply

Dave Carrie Shooting

2 days ago

Steel 3/4 3/4

The new miroku MK game guns I use on steel are specked up for high performance steel loads , although “they“ (the gun manufacturers) recommend 1/2 choke and less for bigger pellets ! I don’t take much notice of that and tend to do my own thing and trust my equipment more than the manufacturers tend to do!! They’re always watching their *** !

 

 

 

 

Thanks interesting he is happy to tighten up the chokes. My experience is he is therefore throwing tighter than full choke patterns with steel shot. Wouldn’t want to shoot anything at normal ranges with that. Have often found I was over gunned with steel when wildfowling and the geese have not been at anywhere near the height I expected.

on the technical point I think most of us are finding we can trust our guns more than the manufacturers would have us believe. I have been using standard steel in a thin walled English side lock to no ill effect totally against recommendations.

In time it will all be ironed out if we get stuck with steel when I suspect we will find an overcautious approach has been taken from the outset. If there were real problems we would have found out from across the Atlantic. Speaking with American and Canadian hunters in October they cannot recall when they last shot lead but are using largely the same guns as us, and faster loads without problems.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Dave at kelton
Typo

[Stonepark]

8 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

Thanks interesting he is happy to tighten up the chokes. My experience is he is therefore throwing tighter than full choke patterns with steel shot. Wouldn’t want to shoot anything at normal ranges with that. Have often found I was over gunned with steel when wildfowling and the geese have not been at anywhere near the height I expected.

on the technical point I think most of us are finding we can trust our guns more than the manufacturers would have us believe. I have been using standard steel in a thin walled English side lock to no ill effect totally against recommendations.

In time we it will all be ironed out if we get stuck with steel when I suspect we will find an overcautious approach has been taken from the outset. If there were real problems we would have found out from across the Atlantic. Speaking with American and Canadian hunters in October they cannot recall when they last shot lead but are using largely the same guns as us, and faster loads without problems.

I suspect he has patterned his gun (as he is aught to do and put many up on Youtube) and decided what is most effective at the ranges he intends to shoot (i.e. 40 yards plus).

Choke tightens patterns (with any shot material) to a point and then starts to cause the patterns to "blow" as the over constriction disturbes the shot load excessively and I also supect he has tried Full/Full and found it did not improve the patterns.

 

 

 

[Fellside]

41 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

Thanks interesting he is happy to tighten up the chokes. My experience is he is therefore throwing tighter than full choke patterns with steel shot. Wouldn’t want to shoot anything at normal ranges with that. Have often found I was over gunned with steel when wildfowling and the geese have not been at anywhere near the height I expected.

on the technical point I think most of us are finding we can trust our guns more than the manufacturers would have us believe. I have been using standard steel in a thin walled English side lock to no ill effect totally against recommendations.

In time we it will all be ironed out if we get stuck with steel when I suspect we will find an overcautious approach has been taken from the outset. If there were real problems we would have found out from across the Atlantic. Speaking with American and Canadian hunters in October they cannot recall when they last shot lead but are using largely the same guns as us, and faster loads without problems.

Yes the Americans seem happy with steel. As much as I definitely don’t want us to loose lead shot, I also take some comfort from the Danish experience. They are equally fine with steel. However, ballistics aside, what about potentially biting down on a steel pellet…! What solutions do the Americans have (apart from good dental care)? Does anyone know?? 

[neutron619]

47 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Yes the Americans seem happy with steel. As much as I definitely don’t want us to loose lead shot, I also take some comfort from the Danish experience. They are equally fine with steel. However, ballistics aside, what about potentially biting down on a steel pellet…! What solutions do the Americans have (apart from good dental care)? Does anyone know?? 

Dentures, teething rags and mutism for the extreme cases where one can't stop the saliva from dribbling / escaping.

[neutron619]

1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

on the technical point I think most of us are finding we can trust our guns more than the manufacturers would have us believe. I have been using standard steel in a thin walled English side lock to no ill effect totally against recommendations.

It's why (see thread elsewhere) I measure my chokes.

Given that I've seen half-chokes in .410s which have more than .020" constriction (i.e. well past "full" in .410, tighter than a "half" in 12 gauge) and likewise bigger bores with nominal "half" chokes that have only 0.010"-0.012" constrictions (or what most of us would call "quarter"), it's clear there's no rhyme or reason to what the manufacturers do. It's more like 5 semi-random tubes cut to fit the gun with some waffle in the manual about what throws what.

So I decided that I was going to work on the basis of the numbers some manufacturers give out for "half" (i.e. 0.020" or 0.5mm) rather than what the manufacturers say. Short of it: I shoot steel through a "three-quarters" choke in my Maxus, which has a 0.021" (i.e. "half") constriction and throws a nice 70% (i.e. "full") pattern with my chosen cartridge.

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, neutron619 said:

Dentures, teething rags and mutism for the extreme cases where one can't stop the saliva from dribbling / escaping.

Not a good look in front of dinner guests…..😁

Seriously though, there must be some sort of solution. Food specific metal detectors? I honestly don’t know…..?! Just wouldn’t want to take the risk of biting in to meat containing steel pellets. 

[udderlyoffroad]

9 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Seriously though, there must be some sort of solution

Yes, chew your food properly...Biting down on lead or steel is equally unpleasant.

9 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Food specific metal detectors?

Part of the reason supermarkets have insisted on steel, is that it is far easier to detect metal on packaging lines if it is ferrous!

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Yes, chew your food properly...Biting down on lead or steel is equally unpleasant.

Part of the reason supermarkets have insisted on steel, is that it is far easier to detect metal on packaging lines if it is ferrous!

Lead is much softer and from occasional experience doesn’t shatter teeth. There isn’t any ‘give’ in steel though…! I wouldn’t like to bite a steel pellet - it just screams dental hazard. Logic dictates (for me at least) that a steel shot bird is only edible with the pellets removed. Interesting that supermarkets detect metal in process, but I’m wondering what the average ‘hunter gatherer’ can do at home in their kitchen…..?! Small hand held detector/scanner? I honestly don’t know, as have no experience in this regard, hence the question. 

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Small hand held detector/scanner?

There are a variety of hand held detector/scanners on 'on line auction sites' - Chinese - and under £20.  If they would detect a piece of shot, I don't know, but I don't see why not as ferrous metals are usually the easiest to find electronically. 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

There are a variety of hand held detector/scanners on 'on line auction sites' - Chinese - and under £20.  If they would detect a piece of shot, I don't know, but I don't see why not as ferrous metals are usually the easiest to find electronically. 

Perhaps that’s what we all end up doing then - a little bit of home food scanning. Cheaper than dental work anyway. 

[Terry2016]

On 22/01/2023 at 19:18, Scully said:

By whom? Have a gander at the comments regarding the shooting of woodcock on Packhams FB petition page. 
It would appear shooting for ‘sport’ doesn’t make the killing of birds any more acceptable. 
Can anyone tell me the difference between a ‘big bag’ day and an average bag day? 

Can anyone tell me the difference between a ‘big bag’ day and an average bag day?  

Yes,  There is no difference. all are good, if done well and inline with best practice. 

[Scully]

Just started to watch the video in full. Some fine shooting but gave up as I can’t abide background music! 

There’s no music playing when anyone is stood at a peg or sat in a hide, so why do producers think it’s needed when watching a film about game or pest shooting? 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

There’s no music playing when anyone is stood at a peg or sat in a hide, so why do producers think it’s needed when watching a film about game or pest shooting?

A good question and I doubt that you will find a (sensible) answer!