Ideal gun weight

[Lloyd90]

Could anyone advise the ‘ideal weight’ of a 12 bore gun please? 
 

I have recently sold my 12 bore silver pigeon sporter, it was a good gun overall, but I am going away from clay shooting so much (didn’t do loads anyway) and mostly sticking with my little pheasant syndicate, some walked up days and May book the odd days driven next year as I joined a mate on a 100 bird day this year which was good. 
 

I am considering a new Silver Pigeon III field model… 

28” barrels - 3.4kg 

30” barrels - 3.45kg 

 

The same gun in the sporter model is - 3.55kg, although claims to be the same weight with both 28” and 30” barrels. 
 

The new Ultraleggaro is 2.95kg although I think that may be too light and would require reduced loads … in which case there is no advantage to a 12 and I would just use my 20 bore Silver Pigeon. 
 

 

[PeterHenry]

I spend far too much time thinking about this exact topic - aprox 7lb for a 'do it all' gun I think is about right.

Enough weight for a decent swing, but no so heavy you can't carry it around on a walked up day.

That said - I'll doubt myself every now and again and try taking a 8lb+ gun rough shooting or do something equally daft in the other direction....

Edited January 24, 2023 by PeterHenry

[enfieldspares]

For a game gun Greener's "Rule of Ninety-Six" holds true. That to be comfortable to shot and assuming that the thing is properly fitted as in the stock isn't too short or hits you in the face) that a gun should weigh ninety-six times the weight of shot you intend to fire in it in any standard velocity load. But any gun even with a light load will feel punchy of the stock is too short or the comb hits you in the face. I tried some Fiocchi 26 gram Lite Speed through my son's 6lbs 12oz gun on Sunday and found them too "aggressive". So fast loads even if the shot load "obeys" that rule of ninety-six can still be not comfortable.

Edited January 24, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Weihrauch17]

2 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

I spend far too much time thinking about this exact topic - aprox 7lb for a 'do it all' gun I think is about right.

Enough weight for a decent swing, but no so heavy you can't carry it around on a walked up day.

This 7 lb.

[Stonepark]

There is recoil per cartridge and accumulated recoil from multiple firings.

You can fire heavy rounds (36g+) through a lightish gun if you need a heavier load but firing a hundred plus will give you bruises.

28g no7 will drop pigeons, crows,pheasants and duck to 40 yards and the pattern from say 28g no7.5 Black Gold fibre (clay) will out perform general 30g or 32g no 6 game cartridges.

Dropping to a 20b with 28g no6 general game load will pattern worse than the 12 but it is unlikely to be significant..

Personally, if you are not shooting heavy loads constantly and can live with 28g loads, I would go with the Ultraleggaro if it fits you well and you like the handling.

[enfieldspares]

3 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

I spend far too much time thinking about this exact topic - aprox 7lb for a 'do it all' gun I think is about right.

My late father's gun a Henry Clarke thirty inch barrel boxlock ejector that he had new as a gift in 1919 on his twelfth birthday weighs 6lbs 14ozs or so. From the days when 1 1/8 of English #5 was the common game load! So your 7lbs has merit! 

 

[London Best]

• I would go for the lightweight, especially if shooting walked up, and use one ounce loads. Trust me, they will kill anything you ever want to shoot. 

Personally, I just don’t like heavy guns. Mine weighs 6lbs 2 ozs. (We don’t do kg where I come from!)

Edited January 24, 2023 by London Best

[PeterHenry]

18 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

My late father's gun a Henry Clarke thirty inch barrel boxlock ejector that he had new as a gift in 1919 on his twelfth birthday weighs 6lbs 14ozs or so. From the days when 1 1/8 of English #5 was the common game load! So your 7lbs has merit! 

 

I'm sure I've said it before, but that's a lovely gun - even more so for the family connection. My Grandmother handed all of my Grandfather's guns into the police after he died in the 1970s - including a Churchill.

We still have his first gun (an air rifle), a pig skin gun case, and a nicely engraved hammer gun lock that was was probably from one of his father's guns, but apart from that, a big empty nothing.

[ditchman]

strange question...

i think the only true answer is something only you can answer.........it will depend on how the gun is configured ..lenghth of stuck ...drop at comb ..blah blah blah...also balance is very important.........i have used a gun that was very nose heavy..(long barrells).....i had it drilled in the stock butt to take lead..to give it a neautral balance.....when i got it back i would have sworn to god it was lighter ....

also depends what cartridges you like to use for you quarry

my preference is for a light short barrelled sxs maximum 28g and 7 shot does for everything.........

i rerally think balance is the most important lloyd

thats my opinion anyway

[London Best]

1 minute ago, ditchman said:

 

my preference is for a light short barrelled sxs maximum 28g and 7 shot does for everything.........

i rerally think balance is the most important lloyd

thats my opinion anyway

You and I would get on just fine!

[TOPGUN749]

For a 12 bore game shooting,7lbs,3.2kg is about right, for clay shooting a bit heavier is fine up to 8 lbs.

[Stonepark]

Whilst recoil can be subjective, there are calculations that can be made that reflect the physics in total that affect the shooter.

Using Black Gold Clay (28g) and Black Gold Dark Storm (32g and 36g) in 12b.

With a 1500ft/sec 28g load,  6.5lb gun like the Ultraleggaro develops a recoil velocity of 18ft/sec and 33ftlbs recoil energy, a 7.5lb (3.45kg) silver pigeon with the same load develops 15.6ft/sec and 28.5ftlbs.

A 1475ft/sec 32g load in a Ultraleggaro develops 19.6ft/sec and 38.6ftlbs, whilst a silver pigeon develops 17ft/sec and 33.5ftlbs

A 1450ft/sec 36g load in a Ultraleggaro develops 21ft/sec and 44.6ftlbs, whilst a silver pigeon develops 18.2ft/sec and 38.6ftlbs.

 

[Dave at kelton]

40 minutes ago, ditchman said:

strange question...

i think the only true answer is something only you can answer.........it will depend on how the gun is configured ..lenghth of stuck ...drop at comb ..blah blah blah...also balance is very important.........i have used a gun that was very nose heavy..(long barrells).....i had it drilled in the stock butt to take lead..to give it a neautral balance.....when i got it back i would have sworn to god it was lighter ....

also depends what cartridges you like to use for you quarry

my preference is for a light short barrelled sxs maximum 28g and 7 shot does for everything.........

i rerally think balance is the most important lloyd

thats my opinion anyway

I agree. I have handled and shot many guns from the lowliest makers to the best and it is not a matter of judging by the weight on the scales but how they feel in the hands. 

[Fellside]

As Lloyd90 is considering a Silver Pigeon ‘field’ 12 bore - it’s worth pointing out that there isn’t a big difference in weight between this and the sporter version. The sporters typically weigh about 7 3/4 lbs and the field version about 7 1/2. The weight can vary re wood density by a couple of ounces, but not much more. There’s just no getting around the fact that mass produced O/Us are fairly chunky items really. 

I do agree with the above comments that a gun weighing about 7lbs, with pleasant handling, makes an decent game gun. How you achieve this and what fits/suits you best is a personal choice. 

[Robden]

Why worry about the weight of the gun? You only hold it for a few seconds.

The rest of the time, your man carries it, surely.

[Westley]

SURELY you mean.........PERSON,  don't you   ??

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

SURELY you mean.........PERSON,  don't you   ??

Ha ha….🤣 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, interesting post Loyd , I've shot O/U  around 8llb ( clays) down to Side by Sides around 6llb, for the type of shooting you mention my thoughts are around 7llb , my present O/U is 6.5 LLB but I am not shooting that much these times so I can reduce weight and cartridge to 28 g , one other point is do Beretta have a light game O/U around 7 LLB ?

Edited January 25, 2023 by oldypigeonpopper

[marsh man]

This is something I have never considered until recently , why recently ? , well ever since I was old enough to carry a gun I have always been reasonably strong and touch wood fairly fit , the weight of the gun never bothered me and for many years I used a 3 inch s x s for everything and all the year round , we were not in the position to have guns fitted and certainly not made , so we bought a gun and if it felt right then you fitted yourself into the gun rather than the other way round and I can honestly say I couldn't tell you what the weight was on any of the guns I have owned for over 60 plus years .

It have only been recently that if my body is having a bad day then my gun do seem a bit heavy time I am walking off the marshes after a long walk but if I am feeling alright then the weight of the gun is not even thought about , now with being 76 on the horizon then I can see where a lighter gun would have to be a consideration , but at the moment I will plod on with what I have already got .   MM

[wymberley]

17 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Whilst recoil can be subjective, there are calculations that can be made that reflect the physics in total that affect the shooter.

Using Black Gold Clay (28g) and Black Gold Dark Storm (32g and 36g) in 12b.

With a 1500ft/sec 28g load,  6.5lb gun like the Ultraleggaro develops a recoil velocity of 18ft/sec and 33ftlbs recoil energy, a 7.5lb (3.45kg) silver pigeon with the same load develops 15.6ft/sec and 28.5ftlbs.

A 1475ft/sec 32g load in a Ultraleggaro develops 19.6ft/sec and 38.6ftlbs, whilst a silver pigeon develops 17ft/sec and 33.5ftlbs

A 1450ft/sec 36g load in a Ultraleggaro develops 21ft/sec and 44.6ftlbs, whilst a silver pigeon develops 18.2ft/sec and 38.6ftlbs.

 

For a continuous day's shooting the figures of 15 ft/sec and 24ftlbs are suggested as a possible sensible max'.

[Fellside]

4 minutes ago, wymberley said:

For a continuous day's shooting the figures of 15 ft/sec and 24ftlbs are suggested as a possible sensible max'.

I never normally notice recoil with my 12 bore - unless I use a lot of cart’s in quick succession. The thrill of the shot seems to take over. However, I do conversely notice the lack of recoil when using a 410 - a very pleasant shooting experience. Very light handling too. Mine only weighs 5lbs 3oz. 14 gram cart’s for decoying all day long - marvellous way to shoot. 

[wymberley]

46 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I never normally notice recoil with my 12 bore - unless I use a lot of cart’s in quick succession. The thrill of the shot seems to take over. However, I do conversely notice the lack of recoil when using a 410 - a very pleasant shooting experience. Very light handling too. Mine only weighs 5lbs 3oz. 14 gram cart’s for decoying all day long - marvellous way to shoot. 

Possibly because the figures very quickly and ish are 11.2 ft/sec (15) and 10.5 ft lbs (24).

[Fellside]

39 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Possibly because the figures very quickly and ish are 11.2 ft/sec (15) and 10.5 ft lbs (24).

Thanks wymberley. 👍 

[Westley]

9 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, interesting post Loyd , I've shot O/U  around 8llb ( clays) down to Side by Sides around 6llb, for the type of shooting you mention my thoughts are around 7llb , my present O/U is 6.5 LLB but I am not shooting that much these times so I can reduce weight and cartridge to 28 g , one other point is do Beretta have a light game O/U around 7 LLB ?

Beretta did make an Ultra light game gun, I know of 2 people who have them. 1 is solely a game shooter and the other is solely a clay shooter. The game shooter reckoned he could feel excessive recoil,  but that was with 30 gram fibre wadded cartridge. The clay shooter on the other hand, reckons not to feel recoil with 28 gram cartridges mixed plastic and fibre wads. Having seen them both shoot, I would say they were above average shooters and suggest the recoil or lack of recoil in both cases, is down to gun fit. Both guns are 28" barrels and weigh around 7lbs.

I currently have a Verney Carron O/U 12 bore in my cabinet which weighs under 7lbs. Although I have never shot it, those that have, tell me it kicks like a Mule  !

Edited January 25, 2023 by Westley

[London Best]

49 minutes ago, Westley said:

Beretta did make an Ultra light game gun, I know of 2 people who have them. 1 is solely a game shooter and the other is solely a clay shooter. The game shooter reckoned he could feel excessive recoil,  but that was with 30 gram fibre wadded cartridge. The clay shooter on the other hand, reckons not to feel recoil with 28 gram cartridges mixed plastic and fibre wads. Having seen them both shoot, I would say they were above average shooters and suggest the recoil or lack of recoil in both cases, is down to gun fit. Both guns are 28" barrels and weigh around 7lbs.

I currently have a Verney Carron O/U 12 bore in my cabinet which weighs under 7lbs. Although I have never shot it, those that have, tell me it kicks like a Mule  !

Does your Westley Richards kick like a mule, and does it weigh 7lbs?

I would bet the answer to both questions is no.