Fight for the future of game shooting - have you had your say?

[Arley]

Done

[Scully]

Not one reply from any of our syndicate members! 
Where's that tumbleweed emoticon when you need it? 

[jall25]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

Not one reply from any of our syndicate members! 
Where's that tumbleweed emoticon when you need it? 

 

Yes its sad - but perhaps true - it wont be Packham - or NRW or DEFRA that cause the loss of our sport but so many of the other "sportsmen" and their apathy 

[7daysinaweek]

Done!

[Fellside]

Keep going everybody - the more the better!

[Conor O'Gorman]

Some 62 PW members have now posted that they have completed the survey so far. Further updates would be great to keep momentum going!

For anyone reading about this consultation for the first time responding to the consultation involves answering 12 questions in an online survey and a basic guide to doing so is as follows: 

Q1: Give your name. Q2: Give your email address (optional). Q3: Ignore. Q4: Say no, because that is a ban on gamebird releasing. Qs 5-8 Say no, because these are leading questions. Qs 9-12: you can skip these questions, unless you have comments to make on whether the proposals could in any way affect opportunities for people to use the Welsh language.

For more info and to complete the survey please click weblink below:

https://basc.org.uk/actnow/

[12gauge82]

Yes

[greylag]

Only 62 at the moment,surly there should be a better response than this.Game shooting in Wales is under attack by this totally anti shooting government.If we lose this fight all other forms of shooting will be next.Wildfowling will undoubtedly be in the firing line.

Please pigeon watch members get your replies in and if you live in Wales write to your SMs and push them for their answers.

Our countryside way of life is at steak.

 

[HantsRob]

4 minutes ago, greylag said:

Only 62 at the moment,surly there should be a better response than this.Game shooting in Wales is under attack by this totally anti shooting government.If we lose this fight all other forms of shooting will be next.Wildfowling will undoubtedly be in the firing line.

Please pigeon watch members get your replies in and if you live in Wales write to your SMs and push them for their answers.

Our countryside way of life is at steak.

 

I've held off on replying until now.

If I am a clay shooter who has no intention of ever shooting a live animal, and I am not convinced doing it for sport rather than conservation is necessarily a good thing, I should support your fight to shoot game in case clays are targeted next?

Many people who don't agree with shooting animals will not reply to this thread, and will not want to say no in case they receive negativity for not supporting the killing of animals. 

I do not have an interest in wildfowling or game shooting, but enjoy clay targets as a discipline. I've argued before that clay and game are not interdependent. I think it's a valid argument about wildfowling to encourage voting from another sector though.

Please do not confuse apathy of "clay only" shooters as a sign of disrespect or a lack of support. But equally understand that sometimes a no reply is better and preferable to your cause than being against it.

 

I wish all that shoot live quarry all the best in their sport, I just don't feel I need to support it to try to keep clay shooting alive. I appreciate your appeal for help is valid on this forum, I am just trying to provide balance as to why many may feel they don't want to. 

[greylag]

A no reply is what the anti brigade are hoping for.I am pretty sure WJ and their supporters are not holding back with their views on the proposed licencing.

The Welsh government would want to ban all gun ownership  if thy had their way.Any support is better than non.

[grahamch]

6 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I've held off on replying until now.

If I am a clay shooter who has no intention of ever shooting a live animal, and I am not convinced doing it for sport rather than conservation is necessarily a good thing, I should support your fight to shoot game in case clays are targeted next?

Many people who don't agree with shooting animals will not reply to this thread, and will not want to say no in case they receive negativity for not supporting the killing of animals. 

I do not have an interest in wildfowling or game shooting, but enjoy clay targets as a discipline. I've argued before that clay and game are not interdependent. I think it's a valid argument about wildfowling to encourage voting from another sector though.

Please do not confuse apathy of "clay only" shooters as a sign of disrespect or a lack of support. But equally understand that sometimes a no reply is better and preferable to your cause than being against it.

 

I wish all that shoot live quarry all the best in their sport, I just don't feel I need to support it to try to keep clay shooting alive. I appreciate your appeal for help is valid on this forum, I am just trying to provide balance as to why many may feel they don't want to. 

Divide and rule! If game shooting goes, all shooting sports will disappear other than maybe culling of deer and pests. Narrow minded and selfish attitude in my view

[eclcho]

Done

[udderlyoffroad]

7 hours ago, HantsRob said:

If I am a clay shooter who has no intention of ever shooting a live animal, and I am not convinced doing it for sport rather than conservation is necessarily a good thing, I should support your fight to shoot game in case clays are targeted next?

Pretty much, yes.

There are those in positions of power that probably think a clay pigeon is a live animal anyway.

It's probably taken you longer to type that post than respond to the consultation.

After all, the pistol ban...er nobody was shooting live quarry with pistols*.  It happened in part due to the shooting community's rampant I'm-alright-Jack-ism.

*Yes, ok humane despatch...

[PeterHenry]

45 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

There are those in positions of power that probably think a clay pigeon is a live animal anyway.

I know you mention this as a joke, but I worked with somone once who actually thought that

[jall25]

9 hours ago, greylag said:

Only 62 at the moment,surly there should be a better response than this.Game shooting in Wales is under attack by this totally anti shooting government.If we lose this fight all other forms of shooting will be next.Wildfowling will undoubtedly be in the firing line.

Please pigeon watch members get your replies in and if you live in Wales write to your SMs and push them for their answers.

Our countryside way of life is at steak.

 

I would also suggest spreading this amongst fishermen - and all our farming friends 

8 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I've held off on replying until now.

If I am a clay shooter who has no intention of ever shooting a live animal, and I am not convinced doing it for sport rather than conservation is necessarily a good thing, I should support your fight to shoot game in case clays are targeted next?

Many people who don't agree with shooting animals will not reply to this thread, and will not want to say no in case they receive negativity for not supporting the killing of animals. 

I do not have an interest in wildfowling or game shooting, but enjoy clay targets as a discipline. I've argued before that clay and game are not interdependent. I think it's a valid argument about wildfowling to encourage voting from another sector though.

Please do not confuse apathy of "clay only" shooters as a sign of disrespect or a lack of support. But equally understand that sometimes a no reply is better and preferable to your cause than being against it.

 

I wish all that shoot live quarry all the best in their sport, I just don't feel I need to support it to try to keep clay shooting alive. I appreciate your appeal for help is valid on this forum, I am just trying to provide balance as to why many may feel they don't want to. 

I wonder what the effects would be if live quarry shooting was banned 

Would that mean less shooters and therefore higher costs 

Would it mean less clay grounds - the shoot we run has a few clay days and i know would not have those if it was not hand in hand with the game shoot 

What would happen to all the gunshops ? Would the clay shooters offer enough trade 

 

If they ever get to ban live shooting it will be a rapid domino effect -Guns will go - then fishermen - 

Its time to make a stand about all this stupidity 

 

My opinion 

[Donkey]

Filled in and sent to two syndicates I’m a member of 

[HantsRob]

12 hours ago, grahamch said:

Divide and rule! If game shooting goes, all shooting sports will disappear other than maybe culling of deer and pests. Narrow minded and selfish attitude in my view

Graham, I am sorry you think I'm narrow minded and selfish for not agreeing with killing of animals. I think maybe I am not the narrow minded one for expressing an opinion. Am I selfish because I don't support your cause? Or because it feels ironic that I enjoy shooting clays and not birds? I'm disappointed you felt the need to be insulting.

11 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

It's probably taken you longer to type that post than respond to the consultation.

After all, the pistol ban...er nobody was shooting live quarry with pistols*.  It happened in part due to the shooting community's rampant I'm-alright-Jack-ism.

*Yes, ok humane despatch...

I can reply that I don't agree if you prefer? We are also on a forum to discuss opinions.

The irony with that it is both live quarry and human despatch (one and the same) that caused the banning of pistols. I don't think the Jacks were involved in the horrific tragedy. Blaming other areas of a community for the ban is frankly bizarre.

10 hours ago, jall25 said:

I wonder what the effects would be if live quarry shooting was banned 

Would that mean less shooters and therefore higher costs 

Would it mean less clay grounds - the shoot we run has a few clay days and i know would not have those if it was not hand in hand with the game shoot 

What would happen to all the gunshops ? Would the clay shooters offer enough trade 

If we are talking that live quarry shooters barely clay shoot except to warm up pre-season, the clay grounds would still have most of their turnover. I do like your first question of what would the effects be, I do think it would both be really impactful and also not as bad as you think. Good question about the gun shop.

Thankyou for reasoned discussion! It's a shame there isn't detail of the split, and I know plenty of people that love and enjoy both sports. If live quarry shooting were to go, I'd be curious how many would continue with clays for the love of shooting. 

[clangerman]

13 hours ago, grahamch said:

Divide and rule! If game shooting goes, all shooting sports will disappear other than maybe culling of deer and pests. Narrow minded and selfish attitude in my view

one go all go is a tired old lie from hunting who ironically went and we are still here bit of karma for there me thinks selfish and narrow minded would be more basc and co who hand out abuse and bashing claims on here then have the neck to ask the same people for support you don’t have cake and eat it 

[jall25]

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

one go all go is a tired old lie from hunting who ironically went and we are still here bit of karma for there me thinks selfish and narrow minded would be more basc and co who hand out abuse and bashing claims on here then have the neck to ask the same people for support you don’t have cake and eat it 

We are here Clangerman -but for how long -and with what red tape ?

 

I remember the days as im sure you do - when you could walk a hedgerow as a kid and shoot a pigeon - just for dinner 

1 hour ago, HantsRob said:

Graham, I am sorry you think I'm narrow minded and selfish for not agreeing with killing of animals. I think maybe I am not the narrow minded one for expressing an opinion. Am I selfish because I don't support your cause? Or because it feels ironic that I enjoy shooting clays and not birds? I'm disappointed you felt the need to be insulting.

I can reply that I don't agree if you prefer? We are also on a forum to discuss opinions.

The irony with that it is both live quarry and human despatch (one and the same) that caused the banning of pistols. I don't think the Jacks were involved in the horrific tragedy. Blaming other areas of a community for the ban is frankly bizarre.

If we are talking that live quarry shooters barely clay shoot except to warm up pre-season, the clay grounds would still have most of their turnover. I do like your first question of what would the effects be, I do think it would both be really impactful and also not as bad as you think. Good question about the gun shop.

Thankyou for reasoned discussion! It's a shame there isn't detail of the split, and I know plenty of people that love and enjoy both sports. If live quarry shooting were to go, I'd be curious how many would continue with clays for the love of shooting. 

 

To me the biggest loss if game shooting went would be the conservation work that is put in as part and parcel of it all on so many shoots. Me and indeed many of my members enjoy that aspect of it more than pulling the trigger 

[Poor Shot]

21 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I've held off on replying until now.

If I am a clay shooter who has no intention of ever shooting a live animal, and I am not convinced doing it for sport rather than conservation is necessarily a good thing, I should support your fight to shoot game in case clays are targeted next?

Many people who don't agree with shooting animals will not reply to this thread, and will not want to say no in case they receive negativity for not supporting the killing of animals. 

I do not have an interest in wildfowling or game shooting, but enjoy clay targets as a discipline. I've argued before that clay and game are not interdependent. I think it's a valid argument about wildfowling to encourage voting from another sector though.

Please do not confuse apathy of "clay only" shooters as a sign of disrespect or a lack of support. But equally understand that sometimes a no reply is better and preferable to your cause than being against it.

 

I wish all that shoot live quarry all the best in their sport, I just don't feel I need to support it to try to keep clay shooting alive. I appreciate your appeal for help is valid on this forum, I am just trying to provide balance as to why many may feel they don't want to. 

I would disagree and say that live quarry and clay target shooting is almost certainly interdependent. 

From a cost POV.

Should all live quarry shooting stop overnight then the cartridge manufacturers lose the sales of the more profitable side of their business (it's often quoted by manufacturers that their margins are based on game rather than clay cartridges and that the sale of game cartridges subsides the costs of clay cartridges) and they'll need to shift this onto the cost of clay cartridges. We are already seeing a decline in the amount of people shooting clays with the budget end of the cartridge market being at £275 per thousand minimum. Should this increase beyond £350 - £400 per thousand (roughly the same cost as game cartridges) then we'll see even further decline. 

The above decline starts seeing shooting grounds with far fewer participants on mid-week and practice sessions. These sessions become unprofitable for the grounds so they shut for all but Saturdays, registered shoots and corporate events. Some grounds close altogether when they see their weekend numbers dwindling to non profitable levels. The closure of grounds sees that shooters need to travel much further to access shooting meaning increased travel costs. They eventually decide that bowls or snooker is more appealing, cost friendly and accessible so sell up. Further and almost unstoppable decline. 

The arms manufacturers see an instant drop in their market in the UK as they suddenly can't sell game orientated shotguns, rimfire and centrefire rifles in anywhere near their current capacity. They either decide that the UK isn't a market worth bothering with and pull out or massively decrease the amount they bring into the country and increase the costs to compensate. 

The RFDs see a massive decline in business as no one is shooting for game or pest control and the already low margin sales they have for clay and target shooting equipment and ammunition isn't enough to sustain them as a business. Their accounts with arms manufacturers are closed down as they have pulled out of the UK and the amount of equipment available for them sell starts to dwindle. They shut up shop as its no longer profitable or worth it. The average clay shooter now has to travel many miles to buy clay shooting equipment (that cannot be sold remotely) and either travel to buy ammunition or have to stump up another £20-£30 for delivery on cartridges that are already massively inflated. 

Police firearms depts see a massive drop in the amount of fresh applicants and renewals and any work involved with section 1 variations etc so their budgets are cut to suit the decrease in demand. Your renewal cost goes up to compensate for the lack of funding and/or wait times are pushed way beyond their current up to 1 year for renewal or 2 years for grant. What remaining shooters there are decide that paying £00's for a renewal that could take 2-3 years is not worth it and sell up (or hand their guns in for destruction at this point as there is no second hand market for them or RFDs left to sell them to). 

BASC become surplus to requirement and shut down. The main voice for shooting in the UK is no longer present and anti-gun and anti-shooting lobbies close in on clay shooting as an undesired/ nuisance activity and CPSA are powerless to stop them as the only remaining association.

Clay target shooting ends..  

[Fellside]

Let’s not get too distracted by the comments of a bunny hugger (who probably enjoys eating animals via bacon sarnies at his clay ground…?!). 

May I respectfully request that we soldier on with the main business - getting as big a response as possible. On the subject of clay shooting, for those PW members who run shooting grounds - how about appealing to your club email list with the form attached? As we know, an awful lot of keen clay shots shoot game (evidently not all, but a hell of a lot). It would be great to hear back from someone who has done this. 

 

[HantsRob]

2 hours ago, jall25 said:

We are here Clangerman -but for how long -and with what red tape ?

 

I remember the days as im sure you do - when you could walk a hedgerow as a kid and shoot a pigeon - just for dinner 

 

To me the biggest loss if game shooting went would be the conservation work that is put in as part and parcel of it all on so many shoots. Me and indeed many of my members enjoy that aspect of it more than pulling the trigger 

 

1 hour ago, Poor Shot said:

I would disagree and say that live quarry and clay target shooting is almost certainly interdependent. 

Should all live quarry shooting stop overnight then the cartridge manufacturers lose the sales of the more profitable side of their business 

The above decline starts seeing shooting grounds with far fewer participants on mid-week and practice sessions. 

The arms manufacturers see an instant drop in their market in the UK as they suddenly can't sell game orientated shotguns, rimfire and centrefire rifles in anywhere near their current capacity. They either decide that the UK isn't a market worth bothering with and pull out or massively decrease the amount they bring into the country and increase the costs to compensate. 

The RFDs see a massive decline in business as no one is shooting for game or pest control and the already low margin sales they have for clay and target shooting equipment and ammunition isn't enough to sustain them as a business. 

Police firearms depts see a massive drop in the amount of fresh applicants and renewals and any work involved with section 1 variations etc 

I'd agree there's crossovers. I do believe it could survive without.

Profit on carts, agreed
I don't think mid-week practice is only game shooters, so I'd disagree with the overall statement. There could be less shooters yes, but some game shooters will move to clay and maybe shoot more. But, there would be an impact.
Even with only clay gun market, a seller would be foolish to stop all UK sales. Profit is profit, no? Maybe more of a ship to order model.
RFDs - I am sure some may close, but then remaining ones may get stronger.
Police - again possibly, or maybe it'll mean more diligence

Good arguments that no-one has answers to, but good topics to discuss.

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Let’s not get too distracted by the comments of a bunny hugger (who probably enjoys eating animals via bacon sarnies at his clay ground…?!). 

This is what really doesn't help your cause. Is being that rude and insensitive really necessary? Is name calling how you win your argument? 

I stated shooting live quarry for fun, and not for conservation or for food chain. For your argument, I haven't seen any days advertised on guns on peg for shooting pigs.

I am also not against conservation and very aware of how important that is.

[jall25]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Let’s not get too distracted by the comments of a bunny hugger (who probably enjoys eating animals via bacon sarnies at his clay ground…?!). 

May I respectfully request that we soldier on with the main business - getting as big a response as possible. On the subject of clay shooting, for those PW members who run shooting grounds - how about appealing to your club email list with the form attached? As we know, an awful lot of keen clay shots shoot game (evidently not all, but a hell of a lot). It would be great to hear back from someone who has done this. 

 

Respectfully this is perhaps where we can let ourselves down

 

Rob has asked for some information as he is not quite sure - so why not help him make an informed decision - If he still is not for shooting of live quarry - well at least hopefully he wont be against it 

 

 

4 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

 

I'd agree there's crossovers. I do believe it could survive without.

Profit on carts, agreed
I don't think mid-week practice is only game shooters, so I'd disagree with the overall statement. There could be less shooters yes, but some game shooters will move to clay and maybe shoot more. But, there would be an impact.
Even with only clay gun market, a seller would be foolish to stop all UK sales. Profit is profit, no? Maybe more of a ship to order model.
RFDs - I am sure some may close, but then remaining ones may get stronger.
Police - again possibly, or maybe it'll mean more diligence

Good arguments that no-one has answers to, but good topics to discuss.

This is what really doesn't help your cause. Is being that rude and insensitive really necessary? Is name calling how you win your argument? 

I stated shooting live quarry for fun, and not for conservation or for food chain. For your argument, I haven't seen any days advertised on guns on peg for shooting pigs.

I am also not against conservation and very aware of how important that is.

 

Rob - i will not deny a game shoot is "fun" - its a brilliant social occasion - its the culmination of many months of work - in some cases - its the opportunity to watch the droves of duck come off the ponds you have built that have been fledged from nests you constructed - Its the opportunity to watch flocks of fiches come and then return to the game covers en masse - Its the chance to see the dogs doing what they do - the people away from work and pressures in the fresh air.

The actual killing ? Its all part of it and should be as quick as possible - i would perhaps think better than the way most animals go out 

 

Keep asking the questions and maybe get out and go and see a shoot for yourself. If you dont like it no need to ever return

 

Regards

[HantsRob]

26 minutes ago, jall25 said:

well at least hopefully he wont be against it 

Rob - i will not deny a game shoot is "fun" - its a brilliant social occasion

I am not against it and that was partly my point. A passive apathetic person is better than someone who is against it. No vote really would be better than a negative in this instance.

I can imagine the event is thrilling, adrenaline pumping, fun social event. I get it all, I've done a sim day which everyone says is a fraction of it, and I really love those days!

I love the romanticised story you put of nest to quarry. I do get it. I lived opposite and next to farms growing up, I have no issue with the food chain. It is just not for me I don't think, hence why I am not against it but it's just not something I support per-se. Again, for conservation it's great, I get the need to control wildlife.

Maybe one of the issues is also the cost to do it! I do get the cost of rearing and welfare etc. But it does make it inaccessible to many and to get a cheap back gunning spot is usually via friends referrals rather than something easily gained. So it feels a bit taboo, a guarded secret, and "bunny hugging" comments isolate the community more. I'm surprised there isn't more effort to welcome new guns rather than to insult those on the fence, or for it to feel highly inaccessible without large wads of cash.

Finally, not directed at you, but I wonder how many people feel the same that read this thread but haven't replied for fear of negative or rude comments. Also don't forget how many can read this that may be anti-guns, and we should be standing together in support even with differing opinions. I am disappointed that insults are required, when we should support a differing view. For that, I thank you for your time, and respect.

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

I am not against it and that was partly my point. A passive apathetic person is better than someone who is against it. No vote really would be better than a negative in this instance.

I can imagine the event is thrilling, adrenaline pumping, fun social event. I get it all, I've done a sim day which everyone says is a fraction of it, and I really love those days!

I love the romanticised story you put of nest to quarry. I do get it. I lived opposite and next to farms growing up, I have no issue with the food chain. It is just not for me I don't think, hence why I am not against it but it's just not something I support per-se. Again, for conservation it's great, I get the need to control wildlife.

Maybe one of the issues is also the cost to do it! I do get the cost of rearing and welfare etc. But it does make it inaccessible to many and to get a cheap back gunning spot is usually via friends referrals rather than something easily gained. So it feels a bit taboo, a guarded secret, and "bunny hugging" comments isolate the community more. I'm surprised there isn't more effort to welcome new guns rather than to insult those on the fence, or for it to feel highly inaccessible without large wads of cash.

Finally, not directed at you, but I wonder how many people feel the same that read this thread but haven't replied for fear of negative or rude comments. Also don't forget how many can read this that may be anti-guns, and we should be standing together in support even with differing opinions. I am disappointed that insults are required, when we should support a differing view. For that, I thank you for your time, and respect.

I have no  no problem with a non-live quarry shooter saying they won’t sign, I’m just puzzled as to what you get from the forum considering it’s a predominantly live quarry shooting forum with only one small section given over to clay pigeon shooting.