Are we overthinking our decoy layout

[yickdaz]

2 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi it seems like a lot of pigeon shooters like to set up under or near flight lines and try to get pigeons to decoy where they don’t want to feed with magnets and flapping decoys. A wildfowler flighting geese would be under them l don’t think they would set decoys to shoot them unless he went to where they were feeding. Flighting pigeons could be going to feed, fed and going to rest, or most of the year to and from nesting. I agree with Scully movement is important, not the decoys but the shooter should move under the pigeons. I would shoot under the flight line or go to the field the pigeons are going to . 
 Hi marsh man yes your right all ways of shooting pigeons work at times. Just like any shooting it’s about time of day ,or night ,and time of year. Fellside had his timing right when he had finished decoying for the day after trying to pull pigeons from a flight line. Other shooters mentioned pigeons in a feeding frenzy , or pigeons coming to decoys all of a sudden, it’s the way they feed more so on rape fields flying over each other to the front of the flock, or pigeon feeding in tramlines on ripening crops. How many shooters notice on a ‘good day’ that the birds crops are empty or how many have milk glands the condition of the birds ( or have garden birds seeds in their crops) . When we had more pigeon shooters some years ago these were the things we talked about not about cartridges or different decoys ( until the magnets came out). We never talked about how many we shot only when very large numbers were shot in one go. 

If you can get under the flightline  anybody with any knowledge would obviously do that but it's not always possible the flightline could be just over the boundary going across a field you don't have permission on so in that case I get as close as possible on my side of the fence or hedge etc  and try to pull them over to the field I'm on 

Edited September 21, 2023 by yickdaz

[clangerman]

I’m pulling the pattern in fav of two out as a pair and one single lot more these days only conclusion I have is they are taken as first arrivals I’m prob wrong but it works ok 

[Sweet11-87]

5 hours ago, Gas seal said:

 How many shooters notice on a ‘good day’ that the birds crops are empty or how many have milk glands the condition of the birds ( or have garden birds seeds in their crops) . When we had more pigeon shooters some years ago these were the things we talked about not about cartridges or different decoys ( until the magnets came out). We never talked about how many we shot only when very large numbers were shot in one go. 

most valid question in the thread. be intresting to find out if anyones noticed any patterns.

[Gas seal]

Hi yickdaz yes it’s knowledge of the quarry. Fellside found a good place for the hide set his usual decoys in his pattern and shot over them for three hours. When the pigeons came and landed with his dead birds that was the right time to decoy pigeons . In my experience of pigeons this is how they feed. I don’t think it’s unusual behaviour. I agree with Fellside to much overthinking with decoys. I shot pigeons for six weeks using an air rifle and no decoys. I shot pigeons this afternoon with a shotgun and no decoys. Tomorrow I may use decoys. I never use decoys unless the pigeons or any other quarry are going to the field. I’m lucky I can shoot over a large area and move under flight lines or follow pigeons to where they feed. 
Hi Sweet11-87 we learned a lot about pigeons and other quarry we shot this way and sheared information between shooters and local bird watcher’s, some of them were very interested. We also decided when not to shoot them , breeding, bad weather.  One farm had a set of scales and we would weigh the birds in the winter and summer time. Woodpigeon were a lot harder to shoot then and didn’t breed as long as they do now. We didn’t waste cartridges when shooting pigeons and not many shooters would waste cartridges on crows.

[marsh man]

Some very interesting posts , it seem's to me that every situation need a diffrence set up than the previous one to get the maximum results , the now and again shooteres will use the same tactics that produced a bag the last time they went , sometimes they will get it right or nearly right , they will get some shooting but they will know they could had done a bit better if they had been on a different part of the field , a bit earlier or a bit later starting and so on , but as they got some shooting then like the most of us were not that bothered , you will then get the dedicated decoyers who get it mostly right but again like the most of us can also get it wrong , so to sum it up , there are a lot of ways to go about decoying , or Pigeon shooting in general that will work on the day you go , but finding the right one is the hard bit and the next day will need an entirly different situation . but isn't not knowing everything and trying to get it right one of the reasons we enjoy it as much as we do ? 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, marsh man said:

but isn't not knowing everything and trying to get it right one of the reasons we enjoy it as much as we do ? 

Precisely this. I’ve been shooting pigeons for more years than I dare to remember, but they still hold a sense of mystery and surprise at times. 

[Gas seal]

Hi Fellside pigeon are full of surprises. This year I was driving along a local lane with a standing wheat field next to it, looking for pigeons.I often see pigeons after grit on the road but this day it was covered with pigeons . I stopped and my friend could see them walking from the crop. A car coming down the lane stopped and the pigeons stayed for a minute or so and then flew back to the field.

[marsh man]

21 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Fellside pigeon are full of surprises. This year I was driving along a local lane with a standing wheat field next to it, looking for pigeons.I often see pigeons after grit on the road but this day it was covered with pigeons . I stopped and my friend could see them walking from the crop. A car coming down the lane stopped and the pigeons stayed for a minute or so and then flew back to the field.

Could they had found some grain that had beem spilling out of a tractor and trailer that had been carting corn ?

[Gas seal]

Hi marsh man no grain on the lane . The pigeons must have landed on the lane to feed on the edges of the (standing) wheat field. The edge of the field was only a yard from the lane. In the winter when it’s raining and windy the pigeons will sit on sheltered wheat fields and l have seen them walk across the field and fly (hop) a couple of yards across country lane to feed on a rape field. We have pigeons feeding on the local salt marsh when I have gone down to shoot the tide l have seen the teal coming with the tide and the pigeons pushed of and returned when the tide ebbed. The pigeons I see eating spilled grain are collard doves. You’ve got to respect the woodpigeon it knows how to adapt and survive. Unless it’s flying over the latest decoys.

[getthegat]

On 19/09/2023 at 16:07, Centrepin said:

Mine is 3 secs flap, 4 secs rest.

You can speed up the flap. I find a slow flap better for pigeons, but am prepared to alter to suit.

As I said previously, with me it's all about what I can carry. It's essentials only regardless of need. Recce is absolutely essential as is position as I often use no net.

I'm at that stage of life where weight of kit is a definite issue. What to take, especially when you have a dog that needs water, limits the heavier stuff. With the hard ground, trying to push natural foliage in, is not easy so 3 or 4 poles and a net are top priority, plus a seat (years ago I'd have knelt on the ground, not now though) I wear 2 full cartridge belts, a dozen half shells, 4 Fuds, 2 floaters and the flapper with small motor bike size battery, some ear defenders and sun glasses. That's now becoming too much. It's great when I can drive to a site. Knowing what to take gets harder to predict, in the 70s, I think I just had 2 or 3 full body deeks, a knife, gun and cartridges 

[WalkedUp]

I tell my boys to put the decoys out whilst I build the hide, it is a mad, unorganised heap but I still get 100 bird days. 25 years ago I spent longer messing about with the pattern than actually shooting, though with an air rifle it was a smidge harder back then 🤣

If you look at George Digweed putting his pattern out you will learn a lot…. He makes my boys look like consummate professionals.

[marsh man]

11 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I tell my boys to put the decoys out whilst I build the hide, it is a mad, unorganised heap but I still get 100 bird days. 25 years ago I spent longer messing about with the pattern than actually shooting, though with an air rifle it was a smidge harder back then 🤣

If you look at George Digweed putting his pattern out you will learn a lot…. He makes my boys look like consummate professionals.

We hear a lot from members asking what is the best pattern to use , I believe in all fairness there isn't one that stand out alone as they will all work on certain days and in certain locations .

I remember I was down the marsh and was decoying on cut grass , I was down the side of a wide dyke ( fleet dyke ) and on the other side was Bean stubble , I was getting a few coming into my decoys , or close enough for a shot but the bulk were heading for the cut Beans , I was also getting a few that were dropping on the other side of the dyke , my dog kept going over and bringing them back and as I was getting a nice lot of shooting I decided to leave them where they fell and then ride round to the other side and pick em up when I finished , the bag was building up and Pigeons were going in hell for leather into the ones that were just lying there at all angles and left my well spaced out decoys tottally alone . so the moral of the story is they would had come into any pattern if it was where they wanted to go and very few patterns would had pulled them off the flight line to somewhere that had very little interest .    MM

[Centrepin]

12 hours ago, getthegat said:

I'm at that stage of life where weight of kit is a definite issue. What to take, especially when you have a dog that needs water, limits the heavier stuff. With the hard ground, trying to push natural foliage in, is not easy so 3 or 4 poles and a net are top priority, plus a seat (years ago I'd have knelt on the ground, not now though) I wear 2 full cartridge belts, a dozen half shells, 4 Fuds, 2 floaters and the flapper with small motor bike size battery, some ear defenders and sun glasses. That's now becoming too much. It's great when I can drive to a site. Knowing what to take gets harder to predict, in the 70s, I think I just had 2 or 3 full body deeks, a knife, gun and cartridges 

Weight is a major issue for me.

I've done away with hide poles and use either standing wood or bushes, use dead or fallen, permanent hides where appropriate or tie up net with string. My walking stick sometimes doubles as a hide pole.  I carry the smallest net I think I can manage with, currently reusing an old army net that screws up into a small ball. I sit on an old fishing unhooking mat, again it balls up small. My problem is getting up once I'm down.

Water is shared between me and the dog, an army water bottle. Small personal 1st aid kit and a tobacco tin with kendal mint cake sealed inside. Secateurs, small folding saw. 50(ish) cartridges, sometimes less.

Flapper and Ultralight battery, 1 full bodied crow OR 2 or 3 pigeon half shells. 5 bird cradles. Depending on distance, gradient I miss out some of this. 

Phone, whistle, torch, CFGs and a very small towel or cloth. Clothing to suit the day and that's about it.

If I think I need binos I now use a monocular which is 8x magnification and about thumb sized.

Obviously if my son is with me I take more, including a comfy seat.😁

[FOXHUNTER1]

I dont bother with any pattern at all , just randomly place out a dozen shells.

As has been previously said pigeons in the wild do not stick to any pattern , I think you just need to be where they want to be.

Some days they decoy great and other days they dont want to know , that's shooting for you.

 

[JDog]

2 hours ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

I dont bother with any pattern at all , just randomly place out a dozen shells.

As has been previously said pigeons in the wild do not stick to any pattern , I think you just need to be where they want to be.

Some days they decoy great and other days they dont want to know , that's shooting for you.

 

Is the correct answer spoken from experience. 

[old'un]

Remember shooting a barley field some 25 odd years ago where the pigeons were just suicidal, I was shooting with a mate and the shooting was almost none stop from the time we setup at 11am, after the first hour we stopped picking birds up and they were lying every which way and the birds just kept coming, by 2pm we had run out of cartridges so I did a drive home and picked up 600 cartridges, when I got back to the field my mate was out in the field picking some birds and they were still trying to land in the decoys, we run out of cartridges again about 5pm with birds still piling into the field but we’d had enough and called it a day.

Never had a day like it before or since and still talk about it with my mate and neither of us could understand what was driving those birds on that day but that's pigeons for you, as they say.

[yickdaz]

5 hours ago, old'un said:

Remember shooting a barley field some 25 odd years ago where the pigeons were just suicidal, I was shooting with a mate and the shooting was almost none stop from the time we setup at 11am, after the first hour we stopped picking birds up and they were lying every which way and the birds just kept coming, by 2pm we had run out of cartridges so I did a drive home and picked up 600 cartridges, when I got back to the field my mate was out in the field picking some birds and they were still trying to land in the decoys, we run out of cartridges again about 5pm with birds still piling into the field but we’d had enough and called it a day.

Never had a day like it before or since and still talk about it with my mate and neither of us could understand what was driving those birds on that day but that's pigeons for you, as they say.

What was the final bag 

[old'un]

11 hours ago, yickdaz said:

What was the final bag 

Well my post was more about pigeons decoying into a pattern that was a mess by book standards with dead birds everywhere and lots on their back.

PC knows the area and it was once pigeon heaven and still has its days, he’s shot some biggish bags on a couple of the farms over the years but over the last 10 years or so a local farmer as taken on most of the surrounding farms (1200+ acres) and now charges around £300 a year for the pigeon shooting which I refused to pay.

PC still pops over and shoots one of the remaining farms, if I remember he shot a field of wheat that had been combined around the margins a couple of years ago and I think he shot over 300.

if you must have a number I will just say it was in four figures and I had a headache and a sore shoulder the next day.

Edited September 26, 2023 by old'un

[WalkedUp]

20 minutes ago, old'un said:

four figures

Wow that must be close to a record for two guns. When I shoot over 200 birds it takes a toll, just the collecting in, eyes burning bright all day, lifting the gun 1000 times etc. One to remember 👍

Edited September 26, 2023 by WalkedUp

[FOXHUNTER1]

18 hours ago, JDog said:

Is the correct answer spoken from experience. 

Yep , this is what I've always done.

 

[old'un]

36 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

Wow that must be close to a record for two guns. When I shoot over 200 birds it takes a toll, just the collecting in, eyes burning bright all day, lifting the gun 1000 times etc. One to remember 👍

Don't know about a record but I was youngish and fit at the time, would not shoot that many again even if I could, first because of my age, 73 (think it would kill me now) and also I have killed a lot of stuff in my life time and no longer have the spark or desire to shoot big numbers any more.

I very rarely set the hide and decoys out now, I much prefer to find a strong flight-line and shot that, I know….not pest control but I enjoy it.

Don't know what age you are but it will come to you one day, believe me.

 

 

8 minutes ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

Yep , this is what I've always done.

 

Stop posting pictures like that….

 

The thought of picking all those pigeons from a standing crop is making me sweat and ache.

[JDog]

26 minutes ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

Yep , this is what I've always done.

 

 

27 minutes ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

Yep , this is what I've always done.

 

Now that is a decoy pattern.

[marsh man]

A lot of things have changed over the last few years where Pigeon shooting is concerned , we were once our own worst enimies , a days Pigeon shooting was always based on the bag , the bigger the bag the better day we all had , or so we thought at the time, now I think we have turned the corner and the days sport is more important than the bag , when we shot big numbers we didn't have the G L to think about and in fact a lot of us didn't even know it existed , me included , then the market started to dry up in selling on the bag which have made a big difference , if that wasn't enough we had the pandemic came along that not only made a difference to get and shoot some Pigeons it threatened to wipe a lot of us out as well , I can well remember in the early stages we were only allowed out an hour a day for exercise and one or two members moaned when I told them I took my dog down the marsh two or three times a day , now we still have the G L with us and will be revised in time , lead shot will at some time be banned in shooting vemin and game along with wildfowl that was banned years ago and selling Pigeons for a decent return is gone for ever , the U K never did want them and once the market started to dry up in the E U and the cost of living started to bite then that was it , all over bar the shouting so to speak .

I am a bit older than Old'un and I think people of our age the glory days of Pigeon shooting is over , I still enjoy it but now I am only playing at it rather than take it serious and this will happen to everyone when they reach advanced years and the urge to shoot stuff is no longer there 

[dead eye alan]

2 hours ago, marsh man said:

A lot of things have changed over the last few years where Pigeon shooting is concerned , we were once our own worst enimies , a days Pigeon shooting was always based on the bag , the bigger the bag the better day we all had , or so we thought at the time, now I think we have turned the corner and the days sport is more important than the bag , when we shot big numbers we didn't have the G L to think about and in fact a lot of us didn't even know it existed , me included , then the market started to dry up in selling on the bag which have made a big difference , if that wasn't enough we had the pandemic came along that not only made a difference to get and shoot some Pigeons it threatened to wipe a lot of us out as well , I can well remember in the early stages we were only allowed out an hour a day for exercise and one or two members moaned when I told them I took my dog down the marsh two or three times a day , now we still have the G L with us and will be revised in time , lead shot will at some time be banned in shooting vemin and game along with wildfowl that was banned years ago and selling Pigeons for a decent return is gone for ever , the U K never did want them and once the market started to dry up in the E U and the cost of living started to bite then that was it , all over bar the shouting so to speak .

I am a bit older than Old'un and I think people of our age the glory days of Pigeon shooting is over , I still enjoy it but now I am only playing at it rather than take it serious and this will happen to everyone when they reach advanced years and the urge to shoot stuff is no longer there 

Spot on 

[Old Boggy]

5 hours ago, marsh man said:

 

I am a bit older than Old'un and I think people of our age the glory days of Pigeon shooting is over , I still enjoy it but now I am only playing at it rather than take it serious and this will happen to everyone when they reach advanced years and the urge to shoot stuff is no longer there 

I couldn`t agree more.

I too, have no interest whatsoever (or the stamina) to now shoot the larger bags that I once shot in my younger days. In saying that, I fully appreciate and admire the likes of PC and others who put in the hours and determination to achieve the bags that they do.