24 hrs in police custody

[Rob85]

No I wasn't lifted by the cops....I mean the program on Channel 4.

Anyone watch it this evening? I caught a bit of it talking about some "armed seige". Technically correct but the firearm in question was a .177 airgun that just happened to be dressed up like a sniper rifle. One thing REALLY stuck out and that was the absolute rubbish the victim of the attempted shooting (a police officer who has been signed off duty).

I'll paraphrase what he said... "I heard a call over the radio about a guy walking onto the balcony with a long barrelled rifle, I walk back to my vehicle and looked directly above me and saw..I believe the muzzle flash of the rifle and heard the shot, and working with and being around firearms I know the sound of a gunshot. My friends in the firearms units have been telling me I'm really lucky to be alive and sitting here right now"

The guy that took the pot shot at this officer was several floors up in a block of flats with a break barrel air rifle that looks like it has an attached sound moderator. I want to know how he saw a muzzle flash, and I want to know how he heard the "gunshot".

While i dont want to take away from the job the police do in trying to keep communities safe or the fact that yes by the letter of the law these guys did have what seemed to be a proper rifle and they do seem to be a pair of nutters they have arrested but Is this officer hyping it up a bit for the uninformed masses watching on TV? As in my veiw he sounds like hes telling porkies.

[Bigbob]

So police officers dont lie and just like tv today he added  more **** to make it more dramatic and most of the public wont know any better and will very word 

[shaun4860]

It was tested and found to be an FAC air rifle, 

I agree about the muzzle flash although that could also have been the sun glinting off the gun.

They had to do what they thought was best bearing in mind the woman that first reported it described it as an AK47 type gun.

It did look at first sight like a .22 Rimfire and that’s what they then thought they were dealing with.

Now I don’t know about you but if I’m told there is a guy on the balcony with a rimfire and he hits the car I’m in then I’m likely to panic a tad as well.

He was a dog handler and not part of the firearms team.

its easy to look at the “edited” version afterwards and come to your own conclusions, but when it’s you on the ground things appear very differently.

As an aside the program on after it is very interesting.

”I was killed by a rich kid” I saw it when it first came out and that really got my goat when the rich parents get involved

[steve_b_wales]

13 hours ago, Rob85 said:

No I wasn't lifted by the cops....I mean the program on Channel 4.

Anyone watch it this evening? I caught a bit of it talking about some "armed seige". Technically correct but the firearm in question was a .177 airgun that just happened to be dressed up like a sniper rifle. One thing REALLY stuck out and that was the absolute rubbish the victim of the attempted shooting (a police officer who has been signed off duty).

I'll paraphrase what he said... "I heard a call over the radio about a guy walking onto the balcony with a long barrelled rifle, I walk back to my vehicle and looked directly above me and saw..I believe the muzzle flash of the rifle and heard the shot, and working with and being around firearms I know the sound of a gunshot. My friends in the firearms units have been telling me I'm really lucky to be alive and sitting here right now"

The guy that took the pot shot at this officer was several floors up in a block of flats with a break barrel air rifle that looks like it has an attached sound moderator. I want to know how he saw a muzzle flash, and I want to know how he heard the "gunshot".

While i dont want to take away from the job the police do in trying to keep communities safe or the fact that yes by the letter of the law these guys did have what seemed to be a proper rifle and they do seem to be a pair of nutters they have arrested but Is this officer hyping it up a bit for the uninformed masses watching on TV? As in my veiw he sounds like hes telling porkies.

I agree. And, when the police looked at the 'bullet hole' in the windscreen, 'they' said it was a .22 calibre. I believe it was also stated that the rifle had been 'altered' to make it above the 12ft/lb legal limit. I wonder if the rifle was tested to check the ft/lb?

Edited December 6, 2023 by steve_b_wales

[old'un]

I thought they said he had purchased it online as a FAC air rifle, screen grab of air rifle below, anyone know what rifle it is?

[Poor Shot]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

I thought they said he had purchased it online as a FAC air rifle, screen grab of air rifle below, anyone know what rifle it is?

Looks to be a black ops tactical sniper air rifle from SMK. 

https://www.justairguns.co.uk/black-ops-air-rifle-22/

As a person I am anti-ban anything but dressing air rifles up as a military firearm is something we could do without. 

[London Best]

2 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

Looks to be a black ops tactical sniper air rifle from SMK. 

https://www.justairguns.co.uk/black-ops-air-rifle-22/

As a person I am anti-ban anything but dressing air rifles up as a military firearm is something we could do without. 

I’ve been saying that ever since Sussex Armoury introduced the ‘Jackal’ in the ‘70’s.

[steve_b_wales]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I’ve been saying that ever since Sussex Armoury introduced the ‘Jackal’ in the ‘70’s.

 

3 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

Looks to be a black ops tactical sniper air rifle from SMK. 

https://www.justairguns.co.uk/black-ops-air-rifle-22/

As a person I am anti-ban anything but dressing air rifles up as a military firearm is something we could do without. 

[Rewulf]

5 hours ago, old'un said:

I thought they said he had purchased it online as a FAC air rifle

You cant purchase an FAC air rifle online, especially if youre a criminal drug addict who starts an armed siege because his takeaway was delivered cold.
The gun is sold as sub 12 ft lb, if they somehow managed to modify it to be over that , that would explain the firearm conviction.
The  'bullet hole ' does look a bit excessive for a legal limit gun though.

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I’ve been saying that ever since Sussex Armoury introduced the ‘Jackal’ in the ‘70’s.

You cant ban something because it looks too militaristic, where would that end ?
Do police look at a wooden stocked gun and think 'No , its not dangerous, its got a wooden stock' ?

Just because a gun is black and has some kind of 'magazine' , doesnt make it more dangerous.

[clangerman]

if this is the level of training our taxes pay for we are being robbed only dumb luck it didn’t end with two bullet ridden bodies next to red faced coppers holding an air rifle 

[Poor Shot]

32 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Just because a gun is black and has some kind of 'magazine' , doesnt make it more dangerous.

That's correct but it does make a lot harder for the police to identify as a harmless air rifle, especially when it has a dummy bolt and magazine. It's makes the situation as a whole more dangerous as the police cannot easily identify that the gun used is an air rifle and forces them to approach the situation on the assumption they are dealing with a real life weapon. When it hits the fan it would be near impossible for untrained officer to tell the difference between a near miss from an air rifle or a centrefire rifle. 

I am anti-ban and I would never propose a ban on 'tactical' looking air rifles but purposely dressing up an air rifle to replicate a firearm is silly. At least they should have an identifiable mark such as a dayglo tip to signify that they are a relatively harmless toy and not an illegally sourced assault weapon. I believe airsoft and replica toy guns are both subject to that for very similar reasons. 

Very lucky that the perpetrator didn't end up dead as a result of his stupidity and the very casual attitude the police seem to have in training non-firearm officers in firearm ID. 

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

That's correct but it does make a lot harder for the police to identify as a harmless air rifle, especially when it has a dummy bolt and magazine.

I dont class an air rifle as harmless, perhaps 'less' harmful, but all firearms incidents should be treated the same, even if its a toy or replica.

16 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

At least they should have an identifiable mark such as a dayglo tip to signify that they are a relatively harmless toy and not an illegally sourced assault weapon.

Counter productive, all a terrorist would need to do is put a dayglo tip on his AK and police would be less inclined to believe its real ?

16 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

Very lucky that the perpetrator didn't end up dead as a result of his stupidity and the very casual attitude the police seem to have in training non-firearm officers in firearm ID. 

Very much so.

[Westley]

59 minutes ago, clangerman said:

if this is the level of training our taxes pay for we are being robbed only dumb luck it didn’t end with two bullet ridden bodies next to red faced coppers holding an air rifle 

WHEN you have put yourself in such a position,  that YOU have had to make a split second decision as to shoot or not, perhaps I'll listen to you  !  🙄

[clangerman]

23 minutes ago, Westley said:

WHEN you have put yourself in such a position,  that YOU have had to make a split second decision as to shoot or not, perhaps I'll listen to you  !  🙄

could do no worse than the current poorly trained lot and prob better having the common sense not to leap about screaming while holding firearms and at least wait until I actually see a firearm before shooting someone! 

Edited December 6, 2023 by clangerman
mispell

[Nublue 22]

It looks like the new military rifle to me. 

[Dougy]

Never seen the need for look alike military style air rifles either, and agree with comments regarding being faced with a rifle muzzle of any kind, do you or dont you protect yourself  Highly unlikely you would get any reasonable answer if you asked the question. 

But no need to dramatize the issue, it would have been obvious at the time of the guys arrest after a 30 second inspection of the gun that it was not a live firing rifle. But thats not as exiting and doesn't does it play into the banning firearms policy. 

 

Its extremely doubtful youd get that up to FAC spec looking at the adverts

Edited December 6, 2023 by Dougy

[Poor Shot]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I dont class an air rifle as harmless, perhaps 'less' harmful, but all firearms incidents should be treated the same, even if its a toy or replica.

Counter productive, all a terrorist would need to do is put a dayglo tip on his AK and police would be less inclined to believe its real ?

Very much so.

In this context an air rifle is relatively harmless but you are correct in stating they should be treated with caution as per any other firearm. Unless you cop one to the head or neck it's unlikely that you'll need more than short trip to A&E to sort out. In comparison, being shot with even a 22lr sub is quite a lot more serious and life threatening.  

The purpose of a brightly colored tip or other telltale signs would be to make the police question themselves prior to instigating a full scale response. A response would be required nonetheless but at least they can approach the situation with a suspected imitation airsoft or air rifle rather than having no choice but assume that they are dealing with a real weapon. 

I'm not sure a would be terrorist would be too concerned with trying to conceal their weapon as an imitation toy gun in the hope that a lesser response ensues. Even carrying an imitation in public would ensure a police response of some sort. It would certainly be quite far down the list of terrorism priorities. 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

In this context an air rifle is relatively harmless but you are correct in stating they should be treated with caution as per any other firearm. Unless you cop one to the head or neck it's unlikely that you'll need more than short trip to A&E to sort out. In comparison, being shot with even a 22lr sub is quite a lot more serious and life threatening.  

The purpose of a brightly colored tip or other telltale signs would be to make the police question themselves prior to instigating a full scale response. A response would be required nonetheless but at least they can approach the situation with a suspected imitation airsoft or air rifle rather than having no choice but assume that they are dealing with a real weapon. 

I'm not sure a would be terrorist would be too concerned with trying to conceal their weapon as an imitation toy gun in the hope that a lesser response ensues. Even carrying an imitation in public would ensure a police response of some sort. It would certainly be quite far down the list of terrorism priorities. 

We can agree to disagree on these points, but Im under the impression that when police firearms are in play, all weapons carried by bad guys are considered worthy of lethal response if necessary.
Be that an imitation gun, air gun, bat, or any edged weapon.
They will not compromise their own , or the publics safety if their is an immediate threat.

[Scully]

As has been said, if we start to ban things because of their appearance, where do we start and where do we stop? Some Air rifles and air pistols are made to appear like military rifles to increase appeal and therefore sales; it isn’t illegal. 
It doesn’t matter one iota if the firearm is real, a toy or even imagined, ( a carrot in a bag ) if anyone waves around ANYTHING with the intent of making anyone believe that what they have is a real firearm, then they have to be prepared to suffer the consequences. 


 

[JohnfromUK]

8 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

dressing air rifles up as a military firearm is something we could do without.

Agreed

[Westley]

3 hours ago, clangerman said:

could do no worse than the current poorly trained lot and prob better having the common sense not to leap about screaming while holding firearms and at least wait until I actually see a firearm before shooting someone! 

I am sure you and the Offenders could have had a long and meaningful conversation. 

[Westley]

It matters not what the weapon looks like or is capable of. In an armed response situation you simply can NOT wait until a bullet whistles past your ear before taking action. I can recall a fatal shooting, by armed Officers, at night, on a dimly lit street, where the Offender had a replica gun which fired blanks. He fired 2 rounds towards Police Officers and was promptly shot dead. The Officer who pulled the trigger was immediately suspended and spent more than 12 months before being told there would be 'no further action '. It was shortly after that I gave up my Firearms Officers card. I was not prepared to run the risk of standing in the Dock of a Crown Court after such an incident.  I had a Wife and 2 children to consider.

[zipdog]

I 100% agree with Wesley’s comments above, and if a person is wielding a firearm, or an object designed to replicate a firearm in public, then the police have to take the appropriate and necessary actions to neutralise the situation to protect themselves and others.

However, I did watch the tv program and my first thoughts were the same as the OP’s. The officers recollection of events appeared very emotive and purposely exaggerated to be as anti gun as possible.

I would be defending the officer if she was a firearms officer and said ‘I saw a man point a military style rifle at me and took evasive action which resulted in a fatal shooting’.

But I cannot support her emotive story that makes this air rifle, albeit with an illegal spring, sound like a 50 cal. She says she saw a muzzle flash, followed by a shot. The reality  is there would be no muzzle flash and the noise, at the distance referred to in the program would hardly be audible to the human ear. 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by zipdog

[clangerman]

4 hours ago, Westley said:

I am sure you and the Offenders could have had a long and meaningful conversation. 

their intellect would be more at home conversing with the coppers who couldn’t tell an air rifle from a firearm! 

[MirokuMK70]

If the rifle had been messed about with maybe it was dieseling- wouldn't that make a bang and flash?