BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

[jall25]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

But it didn’t ‘thrive’ at all, it merely existed, and certainly not available to the majority of working class people like it is today. It thrives today. 
The popularity of shooting in the UK which exists today and attracts huge amounts of revenue to this country is all down to driven shooting. 
You may not see the parallels between commercial driven shooting and other shooting, but they certainly exist. 
Even those on walked up days rely on buying birds from commercial suppliers. 
I’m a rough shooter and a pest controller first and foremost, but also a member of a small syndicate in which on average we shoot about 20 birds per shoot. We buy 300 per season and shoot around 40 to 50% of them, which are taken by the guns to either eat or give away. There are many many more shoots of similar sizes, all dependant on commercial bird suppliers. 
For shoots of any size to simply dump the days bag is simply idleness, indefensible and shortsighted, and hugely damaging to shooting in general.
Driven shooting has some seriously wealthy and influential supporters, but if it goes who will speak up for some bloke who only wants to shoot one or two for the pot?If commercial driven shooting goes we will lose some serious support.
Killing for recreation or ‘sport’ is understandably frowned upon, and unless you’re a professional pest controller, killing for recreation is what you’re doing. We’re all doing it for the same reason, whether you’re shooting 20 pheasants on a peg, half a dozen grouse in a butt, or a couple of geese or ducks to shove in your bag to take home for the pot. None of us need to do it to eat, but it’s what we love doing. We enjoy it. 
Dumping any killed edible quarry is just detestable, and those responsible should be ashamed. 

 

This is true and furthermore i know of several small shoots that nearly closed when the big ones did not release birds during Covid times

Yes they still put their 3/400 down and shot perhaps ten percent of them only !

Imagine what will happen to them - no keepers to control predators - no birds wandering over the boundary etc etc 

I do think we need somehow to maybe "manage" the bigger shoots but maybe but some do far far more than other - Very difficult really 

[Scully]

People go on about how long they’ve been shooting as if it matters! ‘As a shooter of over 60 years experience……’ So what? Who cares? 
I’ve been shooting since the late ‘70’s,  so what? My Dad was a loader for guns back in the 1930’s and after the war, on the same shoot I now beat on! So what? Who cares?
It doesnt matter to anyone other than you, and certainly not to those who disapprove of us killing stuff for ‘sport’. 
The shoot my Dad loaded on was a family affair back then, consisting of wealthy businessmen and invited people, and the numbers involved weren’t a fraction of those involved now. 
Shooting is now thriving like never before, and particularly the industry which has evolved and become the industry which is driven shooting, to the extent our shooting organisations base their very existence on those whom participate. If it goes then they too will go, and with them what little influence they already have of those who matter. 
You’d have to be rather naive If you genuinely believe the demise of driven shooting, commercial or otherwise won’t affect your live quarry shooting. 
Remember, you’re killing for entertainment, and no other reason whatsoever. 

[enfieldspares]

On 23/12/2023 at 13:15, marsh man said:

It wasn't that long ago where if any gun wanted to take one or two extra brace above the brace they were given were charged whatever the dealers were paying and was rounded up to the nearest pound .

Yes. This is also correct. The gun was given a brace and any birds the wanted over that two birds they paid for.

[Flyboy1950]

As much as I appreciate all of the contributors views on large bags and bird disposal etc I do feel that the thread has gone away from is original post ie "BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation" I feel that the Mods should sort this thread out and start another thread around the ethics that large shoots should employ.

I hope that you all have had a very happy and healthy Christmas.

FB

[Konor]

6 hours ago, Scully said:

Remember, you’re killing for entertainment, and no other reason whatsoever. 

I’ve seen you write this a few times Scully so assume that you consider that you yourself  are killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever and I cant disagree with that as you’ll probably know your mind better than anyone.

I can also readily believe that those shooting on the commercial shoots that can see up to or more than 1000 birds taken in a day have little time to do much more than concentrate on downing the next bird over them so accept that they are most likely able to be thought of as killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever as you state.
If the sole reason for spending a day tramping the countryside for a couple of birds is the pleasure of enjoying the seconds surrounding the killing of them then it seems a poor return for the time spent and I suspect the entertainment source is somewhat wider than the mere execution of the quarry as you state.

Perhaps it would be enlightening to ask pigeon watch members what they consider the main source of entertainment in participating in field sports and see if the time spent killing the quarry is the most popular source of enjoyment.

 

 

[Scully]

12 minutes ago, Konor said:

I’ve seen you write this a few times Scully so assume that you consider that you yourself  are killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever and I cant disagree with that as you’ll probably know your mind better than anyone.

I can also readily believe that those shooting on the commercial shoots that can see up to or more than 1000 birds taken in a day have little time to do much more than concentrate on downing the next bird over them so accept that they are most likely able to be thought of as killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever as you state.
If the sole reason for spending a day tramping the countryside for a couple of birds is the pleasure of enjoying the seconds surrounding the killing of them then it seems a poor return for the time spent and I suspect the entertainment source is somewhat wider than the mere execution of the quarry as you state.

Perhaps it would be enlightening to ask pigeon watch members what they consider the main source of entertainment in participating in field sports and see if the time spent killing the quarry is the most popular source of enjoyment.

 

 

I don’t know of any shoots, commercial or otherwise which ‘take’ a 1000 birds a day. 
Like anyone else involved in the shooting of live quarry, I derive my pleasure from the day as a whole; from the pleasure of the good company of friends, from watching my dog work and from being in the countryside, and from the actual shooting. 
Killing is a part of that entire day, and while I can’t say I derive pleasure from killing, I certainly don’t shy away from it.
It makes part of the enjoyment of the day as a whole, a day which I thoroughly enjoy. 
I thoroughly enjoy a day in the hide also, and if it’s a wash-out then so be it, I’d still enjoy the chill out, but not as much as I would have if I’d had a few shots. 
I enjoy shooting live quarry, as does everyone else who does it. If you’re not enjoying yourself then stop doing it. 🤷‍♂️

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I don’t know of any shoots, commercial or otherwise which ‘take’ a 1000 birds a day. 
Like anyone else involved in the shooting of live quarry, I derive my pleasure from the day as a whole; from the pleasure of the good company of friends, from watching my dog work and from being in the countryside, and from the actual shooting. 
Killing is a part of that entire day, and while I can’t say I derive pleasure from killing, I certainly don’t shy away from it.
It makes part of the enjoyment of the day as a whole, a day which I thoroughly enjoy. 
I thoroughly enjoy a day in the hide also, and if it’s a wash-out then so be it, I’d still enjoy the chill out, but not as much as I would have if I’d had a few shots. 
I enjoy shooting live quarry, as does everyone else who does it. If you’re not enjoying yourself then stop doing it. 🤷‍♂️

I know of one commercial shoot that picked up  1008 birds at the end of the day within the last few years.Likely a few more picked up the following day . So days of that magnitude do exist.

The rest of your reply probably/hopefully mirrors the views of the majority of field sports men /women and in a way contradicts your previous statement “Remember your killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever” . We’re not really killing for entertainment we are going shooting for entertainment and killing the quarry is a small part of that both in terms of time and contributing to the enjoyment.

I contend that “Killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever “and doing so as part of a larger experience are not quite the same thing as partly clarified in your last post.

At the risk of irritating you I’ve been shooting (mostly wildfowling,pigeon rabbits and game)for over 50 years as stated earlier if I didn’t enjoy the experience of doing so I would have stopped doing it long ago but it doesn’t mean I have to agree with every practice that occurs in the field commercial or not.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Konor
Addition

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

I know of one commercial shoot that picked up  1008 birds at the end of the day within the last few years.Likely a few more picked up the following day . So days of that magnitude do exist.

The rest of your reply probably/hopefully mirrors the views of the majority of field sports men /women and in a way contradicts your previous statement “Remember your killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever” . We’re not really killing for entertainment we are going shooting for entertainment and killing the quarry is a small part of that both in terms of time and contributing to the enjoyment.

I contend that “Killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever “and doing so as part of a larger experience are not quite the same thing as partly clarified in your last post.

At the risk of irritating you I’ve been shooting (mostly wildfowling,pigeon rabbits and game)for over 50 years as stated earlier if I didn’t enjoy the experience of doing so I would have stopped doing it long ago but it doesn’t mean I have to agree with every practice that occurs in the field commercial or not.

So that’s one shoot you know of, in who knows how many up and down the country?

Anyhow, if we’re going to talk numbers, what is the difference between one shoot bagging a thousand and ten shoots bagging a hundred each? Or five shoots bagging two hundred each? 
As for enjoyment and in particular the ‘killing’ as part of the entire days enjoyment, I’d have to agree, the killing plays a small part of what we regard as a social occasion….or does it? 
If on a driven day the birds don’t show up, the guns would expect their money back; they aren’t there just for the tipple and the craic, they are there to shoot birds. 
People fly to South America to pay to shoot doves in their thousands; if the birds weren’t there to shoot then they would go elsewhere. 
The same would apply on any paid days  shooting, and if anyone was honest enough, drawing a blank in the hide is a disappointing day. 
We have a good day on our rough shoot no matter what, but shooting a few birds turns it into a great day. 
I was just relating to another gun about a last day of the season in our small syndicate some years ago, when I hadn’t had a shot all day. I was walking gun and was just pondering the fact I wouldn’t need to clean my gun when I got home, when I saw a hen get up on the far side of the wood and cursed my luck. As I watched, the wind took hold of it and presented me with a high and very very fast wind driven quartering bird. I swept the barrels through it as it whirred overhead and killed it first barrel as it blurred by, and watched it curl up dead in the air, leaving a trail of feathers behind it. It had been the only bird in the entire wood. Now if none of us derive pleasure from that sort of thing then why take a gun? 
Many folk beat but take no pleasure in killing live quarry; but us shooters take guns. 
While we derive enjoyment from shooting live quarry, we’re in no position to criticise others who do the same.
We’re all in this together, supposedly. One group of pigeon shooters for example, objecting to the pleasure others get from driven shooting, are doing it out of a fear that the pleasure they get from shooting pigeons will be affected by bad press surrounding the former. Do BIG pigeon bags attract criticism from other shooters, or praise? The killing certainly plays more than a small part of the enjoyment in a days shooting in a hide. Half a dozen birds? ‘Yeah, it was ok. Very slow but ok’. 
Hundred and thirty birds? ‘Best days shooting I’ve had in years! Cracking day out! Really enjoyed it’. 🤷‍♂️
I’m not happy nor agree with the killing of ‘vermin’ to ‘protect’ gamebirds, so I don’t do it, but nor am I about to criticise those who do so. Some of my best friends are gamekeepers, and like I say, we’re all in this together, and without exception we all pay to shoot living things for enjoyment. 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

So that’s one shoot you know of, in who knows how many up and down the country?

Anyhow, if we’re going to talk numbers, what is the difference between one shoot bagging a thousand and ten shoots bagging a hundred each? Or five shoots bagging two hundred each? 
As for enjoyment and in particular the ‘killing’ as part of the entire days enjoyment, I’d have to agree, the killing plays a small part of what we regard as a social occasion….or does it? 
If on a driven day the birds don’t show up, the guns would expect their money back; they aren’t there just for the tipple and the craic, they are there to shoot birds. 
People fly to South America to pay to shoot doves in their thousands; if the birds weren’t there to shoot then they would go elsewhere. 
The same would apply on any paid days  shooting, and if anyone was honest enough, drawing a blank in the hide is a disappointing day. 
We have a good day on our rough shoot no matter what, but shooting a few birds turns it into a great day. 
I was just relating to another gun about a last day of the season in our small syndicate some years ago, when I hadn’t had a shot all day. I was walking gun and was just pondering the fact I wouldn’t need to clean my gun when I got home, when I saw a hen get up on the far side of the wood and cursed my luck. As I watched, the wind took hold of it and presented me with a high and very very fast wind driven quartering bird. I swept the barrels through it as it whirred overhead and killed it first barrel as it blurred by, and watched it curl up dead in the air, leaving a trail of feathers behind it. It had been the only bird in the entire wood. Now if none of us derive pleasure from that sort of thing then why take a gun? 
Many folk beat but take no pleasure in killing live quarry; but us shooters take guns. 
While we derive enjoyment from shooting live quarry, we’re in no position to criticise others who do the same.
We’re all in this together, supposedly. One group of pigeon shooters for example, objecting to the pleasure others get from driven shooting, are doing it out of a fear that the pleasure they get from shooting pigeons will be affected by bad press surrounding the former. Do BIG pigeon bags attract criticism from other shooters, or praise? The killing certainly plays more than a small part of the enjoyment in a days shooting in a hide. Half a dozen birds? ‘Yeah, it was ok. Very slow but ok’. 
Hundred and thirty birds? ‘Best days shooting I’ve had in years! Cracking day out! Really enjoyed it’. 🤷‍♂️
I’m not happy nor agree with the killing of ‘vermin’ to ‘protect’ gamebirds, so I don’t do it, but nor am I about to criticise those who do so. Some of my best friends are gamekeepers, and like I say, we’re all in this together, and without exception we all pay to shoot living things for enjoyment. 

Good post, well thought through.

[Konor]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

 what is the difference between one shoot bagging a thousand and ten shoots bagging a hundred each? Or five shoots bagging two hundred each? 

As I wrote earlier ,just because I shoot doesn’t mean I have to agree with all that happens in the field.

 When is enough ? For some I suppose that’s dictated by the depth of their pockets.

If you have agreed that your paying for a 400 bird day and no birds are available to achieve that I guess expecting your money back would be reasonable especially considering the time the guns have wasted attending the day. 

By shooting game myself does not mean that I should have to accept any practice in the field  I would not consider doing myself or are you saying because I shoot I am morally obliged to condone any behaviour by any shooter? Sorry but I’m a bit too independent for that Scully and it’s the shooters who criticise the actions of others that go some way to influencing what is acceptable and what is not.

Shooting a pheasant running? Well what’s the difference ? It doesn’t matter to the pheasant,right ?Allowing geese to land and taking them on the ground then in flight ? Letting duck land on the pond and bagging a couple with one shot. Taking a shot at tightly bunched rabbits at the burrow and bagging 6 only a couple clean.

Some shooters don’t want to be considered guilty by assosciation so I think you’ll find that anything occurring in the field that is considered far from sporting will be quickly condemned by others present. I don’t think the fact that someone shoots means that they are obliged to accept anything and everything that they do not agree with. Whether that is hypocritical or not will be down to the specific circumstances leading to the criticism.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Konor
Deletion of not

[8 shot]

Up until about 10 years ago there were 4 very large Estates (5000ac to 10000ac) all within a 25 mile radius of us, all shooting between 1000 and 1500 mixed bird days at least once a week from November. All owned by very wealthy Russian, Arab and English Billionaires. Nobody battered an eyelid back then, people were queuing up to get on there shoot either beating, picking up, loading or anything else. I used to beat occasionally on the nearest one and on a shoot day there were sometimes close to 100 people involved in the day. Now only two are still going, ONLY shooting up 300 a day maybe 8 times a season. On the contrary to this I've just got in from are Boxing Day shoot where Beaters, Pickers up and neighbours are invited to shoot, the bag was 48 for nearly 300 shots and some people went home without a brace as there wasn't enough to go round. Which is the "Better" day, and why ?

Pest Control... I have to shoot several hundred Corvids, Rabbits and Pigeons a year to protect crops on the Farm, control Squirrels by trapping and shooting to protect new and old Plantations non other than Pigeons make it to the pot... Killing for Pleasure or Essential ? 

Next Deer.. we are fast closing in on Deer becoming a "PEST" nobody shoot them as nobody wants them....this time of year you can drive a 7 or 8 mile A road near us and see 6 or 7 hit by cars a week (not a pleasant experience). Could or will it become acceptable to shoot and bury deer to control there number ?...

[Konor]

18 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Could or will it become acceptable to shoot and bury deer to control there number ?...

In 2004 at Glenfeshie over 80 stags were shot and left on the hill, not buried ,so it was considered acceptable then  I think the shooters were helicoptered in ,the deer herded together and shooting lasted around an hour and a half.

[Gordon R]

Whilst I respect the range of views, those posted by Scully reflect my own thoughts most closely.

[ShootingEgg]

12 hours ago, Scully said:

what is the difference between one shoot bagging a thousand and ten shoots bagging a hundred each? Or five shoots bagging two hundred each? 

On my head the only difference is that maybe and it's a big one, is that the smaller bag days may have more birds taken by guns and beaters/pickers. But then the large day might supply a game dealer. 

Can't really differentiate unless we know the exact picture. If ten small shoots bag 100 and none used Vs a 1000 shot and all used, the large day is the better in that respect. But that can be flipped on its head. 

The biggest factor is us, as individuals will have different opinions, which Is a good thing right..

I know I've only taken a section of your post Sculy but I think it's probably the part that is most contested by game shooter's..

[Scully]

11 hours ago, Konor said:

As I wrote earlier ,just because I shoot doesn’t mean I have to agree with all that happens in the field.

 When is enough ? For some I suppose that’s dictated by the depth of their pockets.

If you have agreed that your paying for a 400 bird day and no birds are available to achieve that I guess expecting your money back would be reasonable especially considering the time the guns have wasted attending the day. 

By shooting game myself does not mean that I should have to accept any practice in the field  I would not consider doing myself or are you saying because I shoot I am morally obliged to condone any behaviour by any shooter? Sorry but I’m a bit too independent for that Scully and it’s the shooters who criticise the actions of others that go some way to influencing what is acceptable and what is not.

Shooting a pheasant running? Well what’s the difference ? It doesn’t matter to the pheasant,right ?Allowing geese to land and taking them on the ground then in flight ? Letting duck land on the pond and bagging a couple with one shot. Taking a shot at tightly bunched rabbits at the burrow and bagging 6 only a couple clean.

Some shooters don’t want to be considered guilty by assosciation so I think you’ll find that anything occurring in the field that is considered far from sporting will be quickly condemned by others present. I don’t think the fact that someone shoots means that they are obliged to accept anything and everything that they do not agree with. Whether that is hypocritical or not will be down to the specific circumstances leading to the criticism.

 

 

Quite. I don’t agree with all that goes on, ( and certainly not that of it which is illegal )  but amongst all the killing, dumping the proceeds has to be indefensible, so no, I don’t condone all behaviour either, but we have to be honest about why we do it. Criticising those who do it differently just makes us hypocrites. 
We seem to have introduced a code of ethics,  ( if you can apply one to killing for entertainment ) and then conveniently overlook that code when it doesn’t suit. 
You mention allowing geese or ducks to land on the water before shooting them; does ‘unsporting’ make that unacceptable? How about puntgunning then?  There are those who romanticise those long lost days and go all misty eyed at the mention of it, but that entails sneaking up on a group of floating fowl and blasting them with a small cannon as they dabble about, killing some but wounding how many in the process? Some of those mortally wounded will scuttle off to die in the undergrowth somewhere. Is that acceptable? It has to be doesn’t it, if we accept that inevitably we as shooters will wound at times and be unable to recover them? 🤷‍♂️

So no, none of us have to accept the practise of others, but we also need to take a long hard honest look at ourselves and what we do, before wagging fingers at anyone else. 
Those who oppose what we do don’t care about why we do what we do, all they see is people killing stuff for fun, and if a good shot doesn’t make you smile, well………you work it out. 

11 hours ago, London Best said:

Good post, well thought through.

Thank you. 

[HantsRob]

I appreciate it is way off topic, however the last few pages is mostly a really good debate.

 

Scully, +1 on the well thought out posts, and I understood the meaning of 'killing for fun' meant that the overall day is what brings pleasure, but without that element, it's just a walk with nibbles and carrying a gunslip and less enjoyable.

[London Best]

12 hours ago, 8 shot said:

 

Pest Control... I have to shoot several hundred Corvids, Rabbits and Pigeons a year to protect crops on the Farm ....non other than Pigeons make it to the pot... 

 

Whilst I appreciate that you are not the only one, personally I find it unacceptable that the rabbits are not used. 
I have never wasted rabbits in my life.

[ShootingEgg]

26 minutes ago, London Best said:

Whilst I appreciate that you are not the only one, personally I find it unacceptable that the rabbits are not used. 
I have never wasted rabbits in my life.

If not eaten by me, I will donate them to the local falconery centre( head shot only ) or people with ferrets

[Scully]

13 hours ago, 8 shot said:

 

Pest Control... I have to shoot several hundred Corvids, Rabbits and Pigeons a year to protect crops on the Farm, control Squirrels by trapping and shooting to protect new and old Plantations non other than Pigeons make it to the pot... Killing for Pleasure or Essential ? 

 

It’s debatable as to whether pest control is essential anyhow, but that aside, unless it’s your land and your crops, then it has to be ‘pleasure’. 
I’m not criticising ( I love decoying ) but think about it; if it’s not your land or crops, then why are YOU doing it? 
See what I mean? 🙂

[Scully]

2 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I appreciate it is way off topic, however the last few pages is mostly a really good debate.

 

Scully, +1 on the well thought out posts, and I understood the meaning of 'killing for fun' meant that the overall day is what brings pleasure, but without that element, it's just a walk with nibbles and carrying a gunslip and less enjoyable.

Exactly. The countryside is full of folks just going for a walk. We do the same, but the excitement is heightened because we hope to find something to shoot. 

[wymberley]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

The countryside is full of folks just going for a walk. We do the same, but............

There are some who would say that this is spoiled by introducing an additional activity. In our case I think the wording would be somewhat more emphatic.

[islandgun]

I small point that seems to be overlooked in this debate is the general public, potential supporters of Packham and the majority of the population, the same people that will donate a fiver to the RSPCA to help the poor kittens whilst dining on one of the 20m chickens slaughtered daily, its conceivable that whilst they might overlook the brutality of shooting the odd pheasant they probably wont overlook the shooting of hundreds per day. As shooters and as Skully pointed out so succinctly, we are all guilty of enjoying our sport and its many facets but in the end the aim is to kill something. no answers, just pointing out the obvious, we must stick together because united is stronger. however I do believe that shot game should enter the food chain

[Konor]

9 hours ago, Scully said:

There are those who romanticise those long lost days and go all misty eyed at the mention of it, but that entails sneaking up on a group of floating fowl and blasting them with a small cannon as they dabble about, killing some but wounding how many in the process? Some of those mortally wounded will scuttle off to die in the undergrowth somewhere. Is that acceptable? It has to be doesn’t it, if we accept that inevitably we as shooters will wound at times and be unable to recover them? 🤷‍♂️

Acceptable ?
Not necessarily ,not if you consider that the practice in itself increases the likelihood of wounding if so you should be free to criticise it. If you feel that you do your utmost to minimise wounding and think the practice of punt gunning results in too many wounded birds why shouldn’t you feel free to criticise

Having been brought up on the Solwayside and known a puntgunner personally I think they earn their birds and do the utmost to gather any wounded birds after the main shot from the punt gun has “blasted” them. There’s not much undergrowth out on the bay for them to scuttle off to so I think their cripple stopper probably minimises escapees so I don’t have any issues with puntgunning

I just question your stance that if a person shoots then they are obliged to support any form of shooting and any practice in the field for fear of being accused of hypocrisy.

If I took someone out on a flight and they allowed fowl to alight before firing they’d be uninvited after the first occurrence and on their way home .I’m sure, or maybe not as sure as I was, that the vast majority of shooters in that situation would do the same under those circumstances.
If a paying guest shot at a pheasant running through cover rather than flying would they be asked to head home ? Anyone doing so on the syndicates I’ve shot with would be asked to call it a day and their continued syndicate membership in jeopardy.

I think claiming hypocrisy by the other guns attending would be considered a poor defence in such circumstances.

At the end of the day whichever scenario has occurred there are still dead birds in the bag but are you really saying that just because we kill birds that we should find acceptable any practice that brings that about for fear of being accused of hypocrisy.

Despite the additional comments added on to your initial statement

“Remember ,you’re killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever. “

I can’t find myself in agreement with that sentence and don’t think  the sentiment really reflects the feelings of a large section of the shooting community. I’ve enjoyed the circumstances surrounding the act of killing game ,the backdrop to the event and the shot itself but I don’t feel it’s accurately portrayed by stating that I’m spending time in the field shooting because I’m entertained by the act of killing.

Maybe I’m out of step ,hypocritical or both but I’m sure by portraying what I do in such terms reinforces the image that antifieldsports supporters hold of us and doesn’t reflect the broad church of shooting that includes shooting for the table as the main driver for why a lot of people shoot and yes I know there’s no necessity to do that financially I just find it fulfilling to do so.
 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Konor

[Krico woodcock]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Acceptable ?
Not necessarily ,not if you consider that the practice in itself increases the likelihood of wounding if so you should be free to criticise it. If you feel that you do your utmost to minimise wounding and think the practice of punt gunning results in too many wounded birds why shouldn’t you feel free to criticise

Having been brought up on the Solwayside and known a puntgunner personally I think they earn their birds and do the utmost to gather any wounded birds after the main shot from the punt gun has “blasted” them. There’s not much undergrowth out on the bay for them to scuttle off to so I think their cripple stopper probably minimises escapees so I don’t have any issues with puntgunning

I just question your stance that if a person shoots then they are obliged to support any form of shooting and any practice in the field for fear of being accused of hypocrisy.

If I took someone out on a flight and they allowed fowl to alight before firing they’d be uninvited after the first occurrence and on their way home .I’m sure, or maybe not as sure as I was, that the vast majority of shooters in that situation would do the same under those circumstances.
If a paying guest shot at a pheasant running through cover rather than flying would they be asked to head home ? Anyone doing so on the syndicates I’ve shot with would be asked to call it a day and their continued syndicate membership in jeopardy.

I think claiming hypocrisy by the other guns attending would be considered a poor defence in such circumstances.

At the end of the day whichever scenario has occurred there are still dead birds in the bag but are you really saying that just because we kill birds that we should find acceptable any practice that brings that about for fear of being accused of hypocrisy.

Despite the additional comments added on to your initial statement

“Remember ,you’re killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever. “

I can’t find myself in agreement with that sentence and don’t think  the sentiment really reflects the feelings of a large section of the shooting community. I’ve enjoyed the circumstances surrounding the act of killing game ,the backdrop to the event and the shot itself but I don’t feel it’s accurately portrayed by stating that I’m spending time in the field shooting because I’m entertained by the act of killing.

Maybe I’m out of step ,hypocritical or both but I’m sure by portraying what I do in such terms reinforces the image that antifieldsports supporters hold of us and doesn’t reflect the broad church of shooting that includes shooting for the table as the main driver for why a lot of people shoot and yes I know there’s no necessity to do that financially I just find it fulfilling to do so.
 

This also a very post and well thought through,  and have to agree with this chap. Especially last sentence.  This is not to say I disagree with Scully.. but as for shooting a duck on the water,   which 99% of time I would not do, but I have done  many times,  (scenario) walking a long journey for a evening flight, to get no shot,  just as I'm about to go,  pitch black,  maybe a lone mallard drake,  drops on water,  I watch very tightly,  can just about make out the broken water, him swimming,  I fire in front of the "V". dog out,  comes back with a nice drake,  he didn't mind being shot on water,  or flying.  Most definitely not as sporting,   and if he had of came a bit earlier he would have been shot flying. But I had that long walk back with my drake,  that would be plucked and eaten.. would I be right or wrong in taking such a unsporting shot?? I don't think so. 

[bruno22rf]

On 22/12/2023 at 10:20, Konor said:

Excess in the commercial shooting market has raised a perception of environmental and health problems created by the use of lead shot.

Bureaucracy is only too willing to fill it’s time in the process of controlling the perceived problem

Anti field sports are delighted as the end result should be a reduction in live quarry shooting and a curtailment of lines of cheering guns dropping ,or not, ever higher birds.

BASC contributed by approving a voluntary ban on the use of lead shot but insists it has always opposed any restrictions on lead shot and appears to proclaim it still does.

Rough shooters and those taking a sustainable crop of birds for the table are losing the ability to use a wider range of ammunition and wider range of shotguns to enjoy their sport.

Any shooting complainants are being  asked to adapt and get on with life.

 

 

Hear hear.