Mr Bates v The Post Office

[enfieldspares]

On 22/12/2023 at 19:12, McSpredder said:

One of Lord Denning's successors as Master of the Rolls, Lord Bingham, described him as "the best known and best loved judge in our history", and if a senior judge says that, can it possibly be incorrect?

Denning? If I posted my one word opinion of him I'd be banned from P/W. He's also the same Lord Denning who said that the only people who should be allowed firearms should be farmers and then only allowed shotguns. 

[harrycatcat1]

1 hour ago, Sussexboy said:

No, you can use the free access version. It comes up as the main item on the login page on mine, otherwise look in “Top Picks” further down the page.

Thank you very much I will have another look 👍👍

[Bigbob]

On 22/12/2023 at 11:34, Yellow Bear said:

Not in this case as :-

It was not privatised until about 2015

It happened mainly under Blair's government who introduced the software in 2000.

Another thing to blame Blair on 

[discobob]

Another software debacle - NHS NPfIT  - Something I spent quite a bit of time on as a contractor....It was great as it was only 35 miles from home....

Not so great for the public though..

And before anyone has a go - I was net zero in cost as I was funded from money they would have lost - however, that they spent that money in the first place is another issue

Weirdly, a lot of people that ended up on that was from the Post Office - CSC took over a lot of their IT functions - and a lot of them ended up - by default working on NPfIT for the North West and West Midlands cluster - Fujitsu done the Southern Cluster until 2008 until they lost that contract and CSC took it over, and CSC had previously taken over the North East and East Midlands cluster in 2007...

[Yellow Bear]

Ah yes NPfIT yet another B liar project  - socialism at it's best

[discobob]

4 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Ah yes NPfIT yet another B liar project  - socialism at it's best

Yep - take software meant for a desktop PC and try to stretch it into a nationalized distributed system!!! Same for the SPINE element as well (SeeBeyond if I recall)

I was involved in ECND - MOD Watchtower - which was a success - I designed and developed the databases and integrations. It was mentioned in Parliament on how to deliver a successful government IT  project - on time and on/under budget - that was a good bunch of contractors that delivered it under the brolly of BT

[armsid]

All the letters in the tabloids condemning the treatment of the postmasters/mistresses still miss the point no.one from gov. post office hierarchy witnesses etc. who lied will not be prosecuted or face jail time Vennells will not give her OBE back which if she had any thought for what was done in her name as PO boss would not have accepted it in the fiest instance but this is how the hierarchy of our country works

[harrycatcat1]

14 hours ago, armsid said:

All the letters in the tabloids condemning the treatment of the postmasters/mistresses still miss the point no.one from gov. post office hierarchy witnesses etc. who lied will not be prosecuted or face jail time Vennells will not give her OBE back which if she had any thought for what was done in her name as PO boss would not have accepted it in the fiest instance but this is how the hierarchy of our country works

I certainly hope that you are wrong 👍

[old man]

3 hours ago, harrycatcat1 said:

I certainly hope that you are wrong 👍

I hope so too but fear that would require a level of morality and responsibility beyond them?

[oowee]

Watching this stuff is truly harrowing. What strikes me is there must be an accounting error somewhere. Lots of extra cash going into the system means the numbers won't add up somewhere unless its been removed. 

[armsid]

Lots of cash going into the system? When the error was found one postmistress rang the PO helpline went through the days figures with her guidance and the error increased her answer?  it will sort itself out  and no one at the helpline said anything even when more errors were being flagged up   OOWEE 2plus 2 equals 4 horizon said 5 and this throws all totals out of kilter was the system adding up in yen dollars euros or pounds ? did anyone check?

[oowee]

Just now, armsid said:

Lots of cash going into the system? When the error was found one postmistress rang the PO helpline went through the days figures with her guidance and the error increased her answer?  it will sort itself out  and no one at the helpline said anything even when more errors were being flagged up   OOWEE 2plus 2 equals 4 horizon said 5 and this throws all totals out of kilter was the system adding up in yen dollars euros or pounds ? did anyone check?

 The program shows people paying in to balance the system after it showed arrears. For every debit there must be a credit unless the cash is removed for the Post Office central account.

It would take a post office (access to cash) and Fujitsu (access to horizon) to do it. Unless it were removed electronically but it would leave a trail to the account.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

The program shows people paying in to balance the system after it showed arrears. For every debit there must be a credit unless the cash is removed for the Post Office central account.

It would take a post office (access to cash) and Fujitsu (access to horizon) to do it. Unless it were removed electronically but it would leave a trail to the account.

 

The Fujitsu programme was unreliable from the start. Post Office Investigations were aware of the faults, but went after Postmasters. Postmasters would not have access to the same level of the Horizon system as Fujitsu and PO Investigations. They would never be able to counter what was being alleged.

If POI denied that they were aware of the faults, I would need to see a Polygraph strapped to their arm. I still wouldn't believe them.

[amateur]

15 minutes ago, oowee said:

 The program shows people paying in to balance the system after it showed arrears. For every debit there must be a credit unless the cash is removed for the Post Office central account.

It would take a post office (access to cash) and Fujitsu (access to horizon) to do it. Unless it were removed electronically but it would leave a trail to the account.

You have a touching faith in the integrity of accounting systems.

If, however, programmers have the ability to create hidden dummy, one-sided entries, an imbalance (blamed on the poor Sub Post Office Manager) is created, and, when the poor SPOM was pressured to pay up, that would have gone into a Post Office account.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, if they do prosecute i hope that CEO is first inline🤔

[amateur]

52 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, if they do prosecute i hope that CEO is first inline🤔

The first in line should be the incompetent civil servants who specified the system in the first place with its lack of basic checks and balances on the access to live data.

Certainly, Paula Vennells should be made to account for her lack of rigour in investigating the appalling Post Office actions, but, as the TV programme pointed out, she wasn't there when Horizon was implemented.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 hours ago, Gordon R said:

The Fujitsu programme was unreliable from the start. Post Office Investigations were aware of the faults, but went after Postmasters. Postmasters would not have access to the same level of the Horizon system as Fujitsu and PO Investigations. They would never be able to counter what was being alleged.

If POI denied that they were aware of the faults, I would need to see a Polygraph strapped to their arm. I still wouldn't believe them.

There was a complete denial from the very first mentioning of a problem.

Being told "that nobody else has reported a problem" was the start.

[Gordon R]

The problem had already been reported, not just by Postmasters. I refuse to accept what the Post Office claim.

[oowee]

Make sure to sign the petition to remove the honours from Vennells. 

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe?source=homepage

 

[amateur]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

Make sure to sign the petition to remove the honours from Vennells. 

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe?source=homepage

 

Will there also be one to discipline the anonymous civil servants who oversaw the specification and implementation of Horizon?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Tony Bliar was PM when it was all brought in, should he and his Government be under scrutiny?

[old man]

Mm, is the Met now involved?😎

[Penelope]

On 05/01/2024 at 22:08, armsid said:

All the letters in the tabloids condemning the treatment of the postmasters/mistresses still miss the point no.one from gov. post office hierarchy witnesses etc. who lied will not be prosecuted or face jail time Vennells will not give her OBE back which if she had any thought for what was done in her name as PO boss would not have accepted it in the fiest instance but this is how the hierarchy of our country works

She needs to take a long walk down a very short pier, along with that Dutch named bint, hand in hand would be ideal.

On 06/01/2024 at 21:08, oowee said:

Watching this stuff is truly harrowing. What strikes me is there must be an accounting error somewhere. Lots of extra cash going into the system means the numbers won't add up somewhere unless its been removed. 

According to the show, ended up being shown as profit to the PO.

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Tony Bliar was PM when it was all brought in, should he and his Government be under scrutiny?

Yeah, going to happen, NOT. He should be up against the wall for Iraq.

[Penelope]

35 minutes ago, old man said:

Mm, is the Met now involved?😎

What are they going to do, hang out some pretty flags and have a dance?

[Bobba]

On 06/01/2024 at 21:44, oowee said:

 1.The program shows people paying in to balance the system after it showed arrears. For every debit there must be a credit unless the cash is removed for the Post Office central account.

2. It would take a post office (access to cash) and Fujitsu (access to horizon) to do it. Unless it were removed electronically but it would leave a trail to the account.

 1. The cash would not need to be removed. As mentioned by the forensic accountant there was the use of a suspense accountant. Thus the double entry would be maintained in the central system but for some transactions the equal and opposite entry did not go to the correct head of charge (the PO branch) but to the suspense account, so branches would then appear out of kilter.

2. The PO would not need access to the cash. As both the Fujitsu whistle blower and PO Rep maintained there were operatives moving transactions in real time in the live system (presumably into / from the suspense account) in an attempt to rectify matters. Yes, there should therefore be an audit trail. But as they knew what was going wrong and hiding it, it’s integrity would be questionable.