Konor Posted January 3 Report Share Posted January 3 19 minutes ago, holloway said: To be fair most of us lost interest ages ago as we can make our own minds up . Then it may help the minority who haven’t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmaxphil Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 It would be a good idea for a cartridge manufacturer to give a steel vs lead definitive as I assume they have done extensive testing before bringing their products to the market 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 4 hours ago, vmaxphil said: It would be a good idea for a cartridge manufacturer to give a steel vs lead definitive Not entirely sure what you mean by that, but I suspect there's some commercially sensitive stuff they would be unwilling to disclose. Frankly I'd be happy if they just put the the shot size in mm on their packaging so we can get away from this English no 7/ American no 5/ And of course it's different for steel nonsense. It's 2024 after all, the whole world and their wife speaks metric, and even those dinosaurs that don't can probably get their heads round the fact that 3.6 mm is larger than 3.3 mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 4 hours ago, vmaxphil said: It would be a good idea for a cartridge manufacturer to give a steel vs lead definitive as I assume they have done extensive testing before bringing their products to the market 👍 Not sure if they did a comparison, as there’s not really much point given the ‘inevitable’, but Gamebore have field trialled their high bird steel on various high bird shoots, with impressive results according to one rep’ I spoke to. It may be worth contacting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HantsRob Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 15 hours ago, Konor said: Conor I can only assume from your last two posts that your remit is to refrain from commenting on any points raised on the forum. Despite your history with Conor on this forum, I do applaud you publicly for writing a post that is non-inflammatory and a fair post. I agree with your post completely, single line included to show which post it was. 18 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I. It is both informative and interesting. Thankyou for your reply. It is only informative if the information is demonstrable and fact driven. That's not to say opinions can't be informative, as it is a valid opinion. But, when it is being sold as truths only and unacceptable to challenge when asking for information, it then becomes a detractor. I would love to see a formal reply to Smudger and other comments with facts, as that would really build bridges and confidence in BASC. I really am not a BASC hater, but as the rabbit hole deepens I sadly only see confrontation to questions rather than a transparent disclosure of fact rather than opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 7 hours ago, HantsRob said: Despite your history with Conor on this forum, I do applaud you publicly for writing a post that is non-inflammatory and a fair post. I agree with your post completely, single line included to show which post it was. Thankyou for your reply. It is only informative if the information is demonstrable and fact driven. That's not to say opinions can't be informative, as it is a valid opinion. But, when it is being sold as truths only and unacceptable to challenge when asking for information, it then becomes a detractor. I would love to see a formal reply to Smudger and other comments with facts, as that would really build bridges and confidence in BASC. I really am not a BASC hater, but as the rabbit hole deepens I sadly only see confrontation to questions rather than a transparent disclosure of fact rather than opinion. Good post Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 On 03/01/2024 at 23:04, Konor said: Conor I can only assume from your last two posts that your remit is to refrain from commenting on any points raised on the forum. This seems a bizarre situation but I can only assume that you are not qualified to comment on technical aspects of the ballistics of non lead ammunition. Would it therefore be possible to arrange to have a BASC representative qualified to comment on the points raised on the forum address those points raised in the interests of clarification as it does seem that there is some confusion over the veracity of the information being supplied. I’m sure you would want both BASC members and non members of the pigeonwatch shooting community to have the benefit of the extensive collective expertise at BASC’s disposal which along with contributions from the more technically minded on the pigeon watch forum should make for an informative discussion and will hopefully answer all the points raised which you have unfortunately been potentially unqualified to respond to.Should you manage to organise this it would go a long way to shedding light on what has become quite a complex issue and will hopefully provide much sought after clarification. It seems that there’s no one from BASC qualified to comment on the points raised available and no response from Conor. I can’t say that I’m surprised ,apparently the voice of shooting is not so strong these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham M Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 Jeeze this is like Groundhog day. We go through all the rigmarole of steel shot and it disadvantages, and the fact that this isn't a "Voluntary" lead ban. And we then have Conor coming back to the forum to start up the BASC "Voluntary lead ban" engine once more so that we can all go through the same routine all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 I seem to recall Conor advising a member to take a break from posting. Perhaps it would be wise to take his own advice. Just when the dust is settling, he starts new posts which remind members just how evasive he seems to be. I am not sure public debate is his forte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 On 01/01/2024 at 23:34, Smudger687 said: 07:00 - "If you go up at least one shot size [with steel] as you did before [with lead] you have the same kinetic energy and penetration as you would with a lead alternative" (I'm sure, Smudger687, you will realise that I'm not quoting you but have simply taken advantage of your post to enable me to quote Conor/BASC.) From the off, BASC chose to utilize USA input and in so doing totally ignored our own in house work and the expertise from both the ballistic Research laboratory and the Royal Military College of Science to name but just two when doing research into the capability of Non Toxic Shot. Now it seems they've even kicked this (USA) choice into the long grass. If we weren't in trouble before, we will be now and any lead user changing to steel by necessity and inexperienced with the capability of this latter material should they choose to believe this drivel will be doing themselves no favours what-so-ever. What BASC (Connor) are playing at beggars belief. We have a tradition of sportsmanship which permits us to shoot with a clear conscience. This because cruelty is defined as an indifference to suffering but we have always made every effort to ensure as far as is possible we are able to achieve clean kills with our ammunition of choice for any given quarry species because we are not, and never have been, indifferent. Until now, that is. It defies logic that the UK Voice of Shooting should be the organisation that has the potential destroy our reputation at a stroke and bring our sport - and themselves which may well turn out to be advantageous for us - to our knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 Views most welcome via the following BASC survey that closes at midday on Wednesday 17 January. Your views are important to us and will help shape our plans. Click the link below to start the survey. https://www.research.net/r/BASC-VLST If you have any queries regarding the survey please email surveys@basc.org.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 I am amazed. We are five years into the "voluntary ban" and are now asking the question. It beggars belief. PS - good luck with the survey - answer a question, previous answer disappears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferretlurcher1970 Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Loaded questions. Designed to give the answers they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham M Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Knock, knock.......................................hello.............anyone there.............................................................................................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 We are in the fifth year of a five year transition, but plans are only now being formulated. You couldn't make it up. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellors Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Bit late now we all know it's job done. I've said before it's a shame Basc took the path and decisions they made before asking the members although I'm sure the end result was inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Views most welcome via the following BASC survey that closes at midday on Wednesday 17 January. Your views are important to us and will help shape our plans. Click the link below to start the survey. https://www.research.net/r/BASC-VLST If you have any queries regarding the survey please email surveys@basc.org.uk Odd, I just got a picture of a big middle finger when I clicked on that link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 How strange at this time? Started then abandoned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 7 minutes ago, old man said: How strange at this time? Started then abandoned it. I did the same, got to the part where you have to give a score of 1-11 but you cannot give any of the questions the same score, hows that letting you give your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 I entered any old score then revised them one at a time (taking a couple of attempts each time). When I changed one answer - three others disappeared. I got there eventually as I refused to quit. I was sorely tempted. I don't know who devised the survey, but I am totally unimpressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, Smudger687 said: Odd, I just got a picture of a big middle finger when I clicked on that link I am sorry you feel that way. The invitation remains to discuss your concerns and queries over the phone with us. There will also be many events ahead and opportunities for face to face discussions. And there is an opportunity to share your views with BASC via that survey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 26 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I am sorry you feel that way. The invitation remains to discuss your concerns and queries over the phone with us. There will also be many events ahead and opportunities for face to face discussions. And there is an opportunity to share your views with BASC via that survey. I completed that survey some time ago; but as has been mentioned, it only allows you to share views via a limited format. Genuine concerns and opinions are no longer tolerated it would seem, or now met with silence. What happened to ‘the voice’ ? What do you expect to achieve by a phone conversation? The one you and I had, didn’t resolve anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham M Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Couldn't complete it because it wouldn't allow me to put the answers I wanted. They want you to put the answers THEY want to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkom Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 On 04/01/2024 at 13:14, Scully said: with impressive results according to one rep’ I spoke to. unbiased opinion then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 (edited) 10 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I am sorry you feel that way. The invitation remains to discuss your concerns and queries over the phone with us. There will also be many events ahead and opportunities for face to face discussions Yawn. Why do I get the feeling that the whole BASC approach to the use of lead shot is a charade. There appears to be no sign of any constructive proposals from BASC to minimise the impact of the proposed changes in situations for example where the use of lead shot is considered of little consequence or where heirloomed vintage damascus barrelled guns are used where the combined weight of lead added to the environment by such guns ,much like air guns ,is minimal in comparison to the total lead estimated to be spread by all shotguns combined. Is it now considered that the use of lead shot in any area under any circumstance is of equal detriment to flora and fauna and that as a consequence there will be no organised resistance to a blanket ban. While it has been stated that BASC is against any further legislative restrictions on the use of lead shot I’m seeing little evidence that this is the case as they have been promoting the use of steel shot and a move away from lead inland for quite some time and they appear to be resigned to legislative enforcement. Unfortunately I don’t think BASC will have any leverage when it comes to negotiating any concessions surrounding the move away from lead ammunition as they have nothing to negotiate with having already conceded early on that they were in favour of a ban on the use of lead ammunition , albeit voluntary. Conor you seem to think that somehow having shooters talking amongst themselves and discussing their concerns with BASC is going to address the problems we face , it’s a bit like fiddling while Rome burns. What we really need is a strong BASC to counter and restrict the impact of a lead ban but we are just not getting it.BASC is failing us and Conor you are an example of those shortcomings. If BASC is sincerely against any further restrictions on the use of lead ammunition then it will have to do more than propose that we discuss the matter amongst ourselves and fill out surveys that will have no impact on steering the debate in our favour. It seems to me that the survey could be equally used to demonstrate the willingness of shooters to go along with future legislative restrictions rather than to oppose those restrictions which BASC maintain they are opposing . The acceptance of such restrictions could of course future proof BASC and enhance their standing amongst the less militant of field sports opponents.I would like to see less sign of acceptance and appeasement from BASC and more fighting on behalf of those who pay their wages, would that be possible Conor In conclusion What a mess and all unfortunately compounded by woeful leadership and poor decision making from the self proclaimed” Voice of shooting “ Edited January 13 by Konor Addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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