Say good bye to lead shot, HSE report.

[Old farrier]

On 16/12/2024 at 17:12, Scully said:

A post above has raised the question…..if the cartridge manufacturers won’t accept responsibility for any damage to barrels as a result of using steel, can I assume gun insurance wont insure?  If they do, at the very least premiums will rise as a result. 
Safety glasses are going to become the norm when shooting bolting bunnies I suppose. It’s not an issue, just something else to consider. 
The issue of whether standard steel can be used in full choke will have to be resolved for definite also, as current advice is both yes and a ‘recommended’ nothing tighter than half or even quarter for nitro proved guns, again, dependant in who you talk to. Personally I’m inclined to fall inline with the American train of thought, but it won’t be American insurers dictating policy, which in turn could mean opening up those chokes which in turn means a reproof ( with lead or steel? ) which in turn means added expense with no recompense for a legislative act which is beyond the end users control. 🤷‍♂️

What a mess. 
Lots to ponder while we cater to this farcical agenda, given Labours stated intent to ignore the needs of a few newts for the sake of a new housing estate. 😄
 

It’s a huge can of worms 🥴

imagine the worst that could happen and you’re gun actually blew up and injured yourself or a bystander 😱

it would be a insurance nightmare However I’m sure the orgs have thought about this and got it covered 🤔

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, What about all the lead in the ground any way, Every Detector day i have been on and that is 100s  brought up bucket fulls of lead

The key risk is various bird species eating lead shot as grit because if they eat that lead shot they will inevitably suffer sub-lethal or lethal effects as a direct result due to how the bird gizzard works in grinding those pellets up and the resulting lead salts entering into their bloodstream causing lead poisoning. This poisoning pathway has been researched extensively in many bird species worldwide. Those pieces of lead dug out on your detector days are not likely to be eaten by birds as grit. 

[Weihrauch17]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The key risk is various bird species eating lead shot as grit because if they eat that lead shot they will inevitably suffer sub-lethal or lethal effects as a direct result due to how the bird gizzard works in grinding those pellets up and the resulting lead salts entering into their bloodstream causing lead poisoning. This poisoning pathway has been researched extensively in many bird species worldwide. Those pieces of lead dug out on your detector days are not likely to be eaten by birds as grit. 

Yes amazing how any Game birds survive living on large shoots shooting Lead five days a week that have done for decades.

[jall25]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The key risk is various bird species eating lead shot as grit because if they eat that lead shot they will inevitably suffer sub-lethal or lethal effects as a direct result due to how the bird gizzard works in grinding those pellets up and the resulting lead salts entering into their bloodstream causing lead poisoning. This poisoning pathway has been researched extensively in many bird species worldwide. Those pieces of lead dug out on your detector days are not likely to be eaten by birds as grit. 

 

Is that the reason why the HSE is looking to ban it though ? I dont think it is is it - its because of risk to humans i believe ?

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Yes amazing how any Game birds survive living on large shoots shooting Lead five days a week that have done for decades.

Quite. None of it adds up. 
It’s old news now but well worth repeating…..We were told by BASC’s then head honcho that ducks and fowl were digesting lead and dying in swathes, but when asked where and who was finding these birds that ‘well we all know how rare it is to find dead birds’ , but failed to explain how, if that was the case, dead birds were being found in significant numbers to make the claim in the first place. 🤷‍♂️

Turns out some test procedures included force feeding lead shot via funnels  into fowl, which then proved fatally toxic. Really? Who’d have thought. 
We also had illogical legislation which included ( if I recall ) making it illegal to shoot duck with lead but perfectly ok to shoot pheasant with lead over the same piece of land. Thats got to be worth another 🤷‍♂️ emoji, surely. 

[Weihrauch17]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

Quite. None of it adds up. 
It’s old news now but well worth repeating…..We were told by BASC’s then head honcho that ducks and fowl were digesting lead and dying in swathes, but when asked where and who was finding these birds that ‘well we all know how rare it is to find dead birds’ , but failed to explain how, if that was the case, dead birds were being found in significant numbers to make the claim in the first place. 🤷‍♂️

Turns out some test procedures included force feeding lead shot via funnels  into fowl, which then proved fatally toxic. Really? Who’d have thought. 
We also had illogical legislation which included ( if I recall ) making it illegal to shoot duck with lead but perfectly ok to shoot pheasant with lead over the same piece of land. Thats got to be worth another 🤷‍♂️ emoji, surely. 

Yep it is on a par with Net Zero, all absolute ********.

[oldypigeonpopper]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The key risk is various bird species eating lead shot as grit because if they eat that lead shot they will inevitably suffer sub-lethal or lethal effects as a direct result due to how the bird gizzard works in grinding those pellets up and the resulting lead salts entering into their bloodstream causing lead poisoning. This poisoning pathway has been researched extensively in many bird species worldwide. Those pieces of lead dug out on your detector days are not likely to be eaten by birds as grit. 

Hello, Yes your right it is more to do with the Digest of lead shot 👍

[Konor]

4 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The key risk is various bird species eating lead shot as grit because if they eat that lead shot they will inevitably suffer sub-lethal or lethal effects as a direct result due to how the bird gizzard works in grinding those pellets up and the resulting lead salts entering into their bloodstream causing lead poisoning. This poisoning pathway has been researched extensively in many bird species worldwide. Those pieces of lead dug out on your detector days are not likely to be eaten by birds as grit. 

Are there any figures in the extensive research carried out that puts the danger of lead shot ingestion on wild bird populations in perspective ? Likewise are there any figures that quantify the extent of the threat that exists from the ingestion of lead shot contaminated meat by humans ? Without such supporting documentation there will always be the suspicion that there are alternative motives in having a lead shot ban enforced.

Is BASC’s intention still to fight any legal restrictions on the use of lead shot despite its continual highlighting of the perceived risk to game birds through lead shot ingestion ?

It has been stated elsewhere that BASC has been fighting lead ammunition bans since 1983. I see little evidence of that in your continual insistence of the detrimental effects on wild game populations by lead shot ingestion while gritting.
Is it possible to fight a future lead shot ban while at the same time giving ammunition to those who would support such a ban by highlighting perceived risks of lead shot use with no supporting scientific data ?

Edited Wednesday at 00:42 by Konor
Addition

[BobbyH]

BASC, fighting a lead shot ban!? 😂😂😂

Seems like the ‘Voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting’ has now turned into a ‘Compulsory transition to non toxic shot which some guns can’t take, doesn’t have the same ballistic effects and is not as readily available on the market in all calibres yet within an actual budget friendly price range’

I do seem to ponder what BASC’s  motive in this ‘Voluntary’ movement was and how many volunteered. 

One now seems to think that many people could and more than likely will give uk their sport and hobby because of it all?

Well done BASC, Well done.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

It was ALL to do with protecting the big commercial game shoots and throwing everyone else under the bus and selling gun owners down the river.

[Konor]

46 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

It was ALL to do with protecting the big commercial game shoots and throwing everyone else under the bus and selling gun owners down the river.

That’s my interpretation. The protection of a large commercial shoot industry while at the same time protecting the interests of a large commercial shooting organisation. Supporting a voluntary ban while at the same time lobbying against the use of lead shot with little practical evidence to support that position. As a result  secondhand shotgun prices are in free fall and no doubt shooters numbers will drop as a consequence of this ill thought through double think. Who would invest a substantial amount of money in a shotgun now when barrel scoring with steel shot use with a faulty wad is a possibility ? 

[BobbyH]

I can see what your saying and agree 100%!

But to me, I don’t own guns that exceed a payment of £375. So my guns are not classed as expensive. 
So to that end, if I get barrel scoring, then so be it really. I will still shoot Steel.

 

What I don’t agree with, is BASC basically throwing everyone under the bus, then saying it’s a ‘Voluntary’ move away from Lead.

[Conor O'Gorman]

A BASC briefing on the HSE report and our position etc is here:

https://basc.org.uk/hse-recommendations-on-lead-restriction-proposals-explained/

If any BASC members wish to discuss anything in relation to that briefing please email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and we can pick that up in the New Year.
 

[Rim Fire]

So does this mean fishing with lead is also being banned 

[Newbie to this]

4 hours ago, Rim Fire said:

So does this mean fishing with lead is also being banned 

Give it time, the nasty bang sticks have to go first.

[Old farrier]

22 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Give it time, the nasty bang sticks have to go first.

Lead shot under a certain size and some of the weights have already been banned from use in freshwater fishing 

 

[grahamch]

6 hours ago, Rim Fire said:

So does this mean fishing with lead is also being banned 

Lead weight under 1oz are banned for fresh water fishing, no lead split shot but they do now tungsten based split and tungsten based putty. 

Given we have a huge tungsten deposit in Cornwall tis a shame it cant be exploited. 

[enfieldspares]

53 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Lead weight under 1oz are banned for fresh water fishing, no lead split shot but they do now tungsten based split and tungsten based putty. 

Given we have a huge tungsten deposit in Cornwall tis a shame it cant be exploited. 

Lead shot of English #8 is still legal for fishing weight as is lead, as the OP says, of over one ounce. The reason given when the fishing weight ban came in that these sizes were not picked up by birds to use as grit. So were "safe" to still be continued to be used.

Therefore why does this not apply to the HSE proposals?

This would permit clay pigeon shooting and practical shotgun shooting with English #8 shot and smaller such as English #9 and the the use of 12 bore shotguns with a single slug on deer as under the rules for farmers and crofters with enclosed land.

Further it would also allow the continued used of .22 Rimfire and 9mm Rimfire shotguns loaded with the English #12 shot used by a good few manufacturers of such.

Edited Thursday at 14:55 by enfieldspares

[islandgun]

This talk of barrel scoring with steel,  would it not be possible to enclose steel shot with bismuth, it would increase the weight of steel and allow fibre wads, clearly it would be more expensive than just steel but cheaper than pure bismuth. I have zero knowledge of the mechanics, 

[enfieldspares]

6 minutes ago, islandgun said:

This talk of barrel scoring with steel,  would it not be possible to enclose steel shot with bismuth, it would increase the weight of steel and allow fibre wads, clearly it would be more expensive than just steel but cheaper than pure bismuth. I have zero knowledge of the mechanics, 

In the same way that you could put copper plating or nickel plating on steel? Alas I don't think so. And the cost would likely be more that using bismuth on its own or as an allow with a metal that it can be mixed with satisfactorily. So you get less cost bismuth as it were such as (if possible) a bismuth and copper mix? So maybe as lead can be copper plated so maybe bismuth could be copper plated to increase its diameter?

Edited Thursday at 18:01 by enfieldspares

[islandgun]

52 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

In the same way that you could put copper plating or nickel plating on steel? Alas I don't think so. And the cost would likely be more that using bismuth on its own or as an allow with a metal that it can be mixed with satisfactorily. So you get less cost bismuth as it were such as (if possible) a bismuth and copper mix? So maybe as lead can be copper plated so maybe bismuth could be copper plated to increase its diameter?

Thanks for that. I have just started loading copper covered bismuth for my old guns, I assumed the copper was to make the bismuth less brittle and prone to breaking up. C&G do copper coated steel, if copper is soft enough to not damage damascus then surely copper covered steel shot shouldn't damage older barrels, or does the copper covered bismuth have the potential to damage damascus barrels. again just thoughts [perhaps i need to ditch the copper bismuth 😕] ..another question is copper non tox....... edit again if copper is soft enough then why not plate tss in copper for shot that is heavier than lead , might work for fowlers

Edited Thursday at 18:51 by islandgun

[islandgun]

Had a google, copper wash [thin layer] on steel shot will still damage old barrels, due to the un-compressionability ? of steel, you would need a thick layer of copper to reduce any potential harm

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

Had a google, copper wash [thin layer] on steel shot will still damage old barrels, due to the un-compressionability ? of steel, you would need a thick layer of copper to reduce any potential harm

It will also damage newer barrels if there made of the same material 🤔

[Robden]

Steel can't be compressed, so like water, it will take the path of least resistance, which will be the top/bottom of the wad. NOT the steel (chromed?) barrels.  I know of some peeps that started using steel carts years ago and still using the same guns now......without ruined barrels.

I think all this "talk" of steel being a barrel destroyer, is like all the hype about the millennium bug, how it would destroy anything using an electronic dating system.  How many people bought new computers because the manufacturers told them to? 

[rbrowning2]

the forces act sideways also, pick up fired steel shot wads and examine them.

 

Edited Friday at 08:28 by rbrowning2