Trump and Zelensky Oval Office meeting

[mel b3]

18 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Did you miss the whole war pre Russian invasion?  Whole cities were destroyed in Donetsk and Luhansk in the name of “rooting out protesters”  even non Russian Ukrainians in Kiev was protesting the treatment of them? Shelling cities in Donetsk by Ukrainians pre Russian involvement is no better then Russian shelling cities during the invasion.  Sometimes cities and civilians have military interest and destruction and killing can’t be avoided.  But you will never get the moral high ground by wiping out neighborhoods in retaliation.  The whole vote for independence should have been taken up by the courts.  It was a legal vote

I seem to remember a BBC documentary on it , about how the Ukraine were slaughtering their own people. That was before the Russian invasion. 

[ordnance]

31 minutes ago, holloway said:

I have it seems only missed firm evidence of ethnic cleansing ,which is what i am searching for its not a dig at you personally ,i am trying to understand why Russia invaded the Ukraine ,the whole of it by invasion with a huge army bombing cities indiscriminately killing many innocent people . 

It's a simple land grab by Putin 

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

I find it odd that NoBodyImportant is referred to as "comrade", inferring he is a communist at heart, when all he has done is present the other side of the argument. Not as Putin might present the case, but as ordinary Americans might see it.

No need to get insulting.

Since NoBodyImportant has joined the Forum, I have found his contributions to be sensible, logical and straightforward.

Just an observation, it's like listening to RT news 🤔

[NoBodyImportant]

47 minutes ago, holloway said:

I have it seems only missed firm evidence of ethnic cleansing ,which is what i am searching for its not a dig at you personally ,i am trying to understand why Russia invaded the Ukraine ,the whole of it by invasion with a huge army bombing cities indiscriminately killing many innocent people . 

I agree it got out of hand,  but many seem to forget the war started in 2014, not when Russia got involved.  The west didn’t seem interested at the time.  If you take emotion and opinion out of it you have to agree that Russia got involved because of what was happening in Donetsk and Luhansk. I will agree it was in part because NATO was creeping onto Russian borders, I will agree resources played an influence both on western and Russian involvement.  But the facts are simple that the invasion was a direct result of Donetsk and Luhansk.  Russia made it clear the killing of Ethnic Russians was not going to be tolerated, the path to stop the invasion was clearly stated.  Withdrawal of Ukrainian government forces from Donetsk and Luhansk.  A peace keeping force be established until things could be worked out.  Those are the facts, no emotions, no opinion.  I can’t say what would happen three years down the road, predictions are full of opinion and emotions.  I can’t say if Russia wanted invade the west, that would be opinion.  But what is strictly facts is Donetsk and Luhansk voted legally to withdraw from the Ukraine after their elected officials were overthrown.  Donetsk and Luhansk paid dearly for the vote of independence.  Russia felt it had a duty to stop the killing of ethnic Russian in Donetsk and Luhansk.  (Not saying they did).  

[NoBodyImportant]

Soviet Union, Russia and Putin has expressed interest in joining NATO.  But there is no money in that.  If Russia joins nato then nato has no purpose and will stop being funded.  Russia is a threat, they are a superpower that is not the USA.  The USA will control the narrative of the west.  Doesn’t mean Russia is always in the wrong.  99% of the time I feel like America is in the right.  But I don’t want my tax dollars to go to this Ukrainian regime.  

[holloway]

Its all as clear as mud then really ,Soviets could have been providing fake info from the start a bit like Donald Trump does all the time to justify the aggression , probably no right or wrong , i seem to remember the Nazis fabricating an attack from Poland troops to justify an invasion .
Thank-you for all answers , the next question being why then has the United states invested so much money in the defence of Ukraine up till now ?

 

[Stuarta]

23 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Soviet Union, Russia and Putin has expressed interest in joining NATO.  But there is no money in that.  If Russia joins nato then nato has no purpose and will stop being funded.  Russia is a threat, they are a superpower that is not the USA.  The USA will control the narrative of the west.  Doesn’t mean Russia is always in the wrong.  99% of the time I feel like America is in the right.  But I don’t want my tax dollars to go to this Ukrainian regime.  

You have made it clear where you stand and if you don't want to to support the Ukraine I respect your position.

I would like to say I thought the way an elected leader of an invaded country was treated by your president and VP were disgusting and no one in the room had the guts to call them out. It is one thing to say no more money but to play the Putin mouth piece in front of the world demeaned the USA. Strong men and women are not bullies like they were but weak. Bullies in turn can be manipulated by bigger bullies, in this instance Putin.

The idea that Trump can handle Putin is laughable.

  

[holloway]

39 minutes ago, Stuarta said:

You have made it clear where you stand and if you don't want to to support the Ukraine I respect your position.

I would like to say I thought the way an elected leader of an invaded country was treated by your president and VP were disgusting and no one in the room had the guts to call them out. It is one thing to say no more money but to play the Putin mouth piece in front of the world demeaned the USA. Strong men and women are not bullies like they were but weak. Bullies in turn can be manipulated by bigger bullies, in this instance Putin.

The idea that Trump can handle Putin is laughable.

  

Thats probably the most accurate post on the whole thread ,completely agree with all of it .

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, holloway said:

Thank-you for all answers , the next question being why then has the United states invested so much money in the defence of Ukraine up till now ?

 

I honestly do know why anyone would fund such a crooked regime.  Couple of thinking points

You know how the USA sent 177 billion to the Ukraine in 2024 but Zelenskyy claims he only received 70 billion.  Find the missing money and it will lead you to answer you seek.  Example: Hunter Biden made a fortune by being an energy expert in the Ukraine.  He of course had to pay 10% to the big guy.  Does Hunter Biden strike you as an energy expert? Why are so many US politicians multi millionaires when there only source of income is 200k public servant pension.  These are all good questions. 

Donesk and Luhansk are resources rich and a manufacturing powerhouse.  Allowing them to leave would take those resources from the western aligned Ukrainian government and put them in the hands of Russian influence.

 

 

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, Stuarta said:

You have made it clear where you stand and if you don't want to to support the Ukraine I respect your position.

I would like to say I thought the way an elected leader of an invaded country was treated by your president and VP were disgusting and no one in the room had the guts to call them out. It is one thing to say no more money but to play the Putin mouth piece in front of the world demeaned the USA. Strong men and women are not bullies like they were but weak. Bullies in turn can be manipulated by bigger bullies, in this instance Putin.

The idea that Trump can handle Putin is laughable.

  

I loved the way he was treated,  you don’t tell the leader of the USA that he must insure, he must do, he must say.  The Ukraine is in no position to tell the USA what to do.  Biden is not president anymore.  Trump will not be pushed over.  Trump will end this war.  

[Gordon R]

Furious Zelensky 'screamed at Trump's envoy for trying to make him sign $500billion mineral deal - and was so loud he could be heard through the door and left US treasury secretary shaking' | Daily Mail Online   

Zelensky dishes it out, but can't take it. It doesn't make Trump right, but neither is Zelensky.

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Gordon R

[holloway]

21 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Furious Zelensky 'screamed at Trump's envoy for trying to make him sign $500billion mineral deal - and was so loud he could be heard through the door and left US treasury secretary shaking' | Daily Mail Online   

Zelensky dishes it out, but can't take it. It doesn't make Trump right, but neither is Zelensky.

 

 

I must have been watching something else then 🤔

[islandgun]

All this Trump says Zelenski says Starmer says, just reinforcers my opinion that these so called world leaders are deeply unpleasant. Connolly said "Do not vote it only encourages them" Connolly for president ....,oh wait

 

 

 

 

[TOPGUN749]

Let’s face it,the American people voted for him,but out of many millions they only had 2  candidates to choose from. They chose a man who is a poor leader,convicted criminal ,with an over inflated ego,a billionaire businessman with no respect for anyone except himself.Definitely not president material! Reminds me of some business owners and the way they talk to employees. Can only hope his reign is a short one…

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, What ever the rights or wrongs on the money paid to Ukraine 1000s of Citizens, Men/ Women and Children are still getting killed in their homes with Russian Bombs

[yickdaz]

11 hours ago, ordnance said:

It's a simple land grab by Putin 

Just an observation, it's like listening to RT news 🤔

It is he's  flexing his muscles because he knows he can, and it's exactly what Trump is doing I don't see much difference between Trump and putin Trump made it clear where his allegiance stands he announced it to the world any speculation is gone it's in the open now 

[janner]

8 hours ago, holloway said:

I must have been watching something else then 🤔

The source is the daily mail,

I would bet that whoever the journalist is that wrote the piece they are not a respected reporter of the truth and would have no hesitation of misleading the public if it suited the aims of their paymaster. That so called 'news' organisation has a dirty past when it comes to lying to and decieving their credulous readership when it comes to supporting murderous despots.

 

 

[Gordon R]

janner - there are other sources, if you are interested in the truth. Then again, you might be one of the credulous who thinks Zelensky is a good leader.

In the last three years:-

Trump has won a landslide, but shown bullying tendencies. He has also got Europe to look at their own contributions - or lack of them.

Biden - nothing short of a disgrace.

Starmer - sidelined by Trump, but now thrusting himself into the limelight - hosting conferences, mediating - all to appear relevant.

Zelensky - where are the missing billions he can't account for. Mmmmmmm.

Putin - a disgraceful opportunist who took advantage of Biden's weakness.

Ordinary people have died on both sides, but this little lot are untouched by it.

Edited 3 hours ago by Gordon R

[12gauge82]

24 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

janner - there are other sources, if you are interested in the truth. Then again, you might be one of the credulous who thinks Zelensky is a good leader.

In the last three years:-

Trump has won a landslide, but shown bullying tendencies. He has also got Europe to look at their own contributions - or lack of them.

Biden - nothing short of a disgrace.

Starmer - sidelined by Trump, but now thrusting himself into the limelight - hosting conferences, mediating - all to appear relevant.

Zelensky - where are the missing billions he can't account for. Mmmmmmm.

Putin - a disgraceful opportunist who took advantage of Biden's weakness.

Ordinary people have died on both sides, but this little lot are untouched by it.

Well I don't claim to know with any certainty, I'm really not sure Zelensky would rip off billions of his own countrys defence spending, for all his faults he is a man who refused to leave and run for safety when his country was invaded, he clearly cares about keeping Ukraine out of Russian hands. 

 

[12gauge82]

As for the purposed theory Putin has invaded ror the altruistic purpose of saving his people being killed in the East of Ukraine, it's laughable, he's currently pumping forced conscripts and his own people by the hundreds of thousands into a meat grinder to gain land mile by mile. It's almost WW1 tactics, anyone that cared about there people would not be doing that for such a futile task. 

Russia has done this all before, under the USSR it occupied Europe as far as East Germany not long ago. Putin is a lier, if he had the military might to do it, he'd find reasons to push all the way back to Germany again and who knows where or if he'd stop. 

I think some inderviduals on here need to wake up. 

[clangerman]

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

As for the purposed theory Putin has invaded ror the altruistic purpose of saving his people being killed in the East of Ukraine, it's laughable, he's currently pumping forced conscripts and his own people by the hundreds of thousands into a meat grinder to gain land mile by mile. It's almost WW1 tactics, anyone that cared about there people would not be doing that for such a futile task. 

Russia has done this all before, under the USSR it occupied Europe as far as East Germany not long ago. Putin is a lier, if he had the military might to do it, he'd find reasons to push all the way back to Germany again and who knows where or if he'd stop. 

I think some inderviduals on here need to wake up. 

ignoring the fact you don’t have a crystal ball showing boyos intentions when was the last time you let some clown lecture you in your OWN home? that would be never now tell me why trump should have worn it! 

[12gauge82]

23 minutes ago, clangerman said:

ignoring the fact you don’t have a crystal ball showing boyos intentions when was the last time you let some clown lecture you in your OWN home? that would be never now tell me why trump should have worn it! 

For a number of reasons. 

Because I've never had someone in my home that if I threw them out world peace could be at steak. 

Assuming Zelensky was being rude and it wasn't just a language barrier, Trump and his team were also rude

Using you analogy, If you did have a rude guest would you get in a shouting match with them, or would you just not invite them again. 

[Gordon R]

If Zelensky doesn't know where the missing billions are, just who is running Ukraine? He has sacked generals for embezzlement and fought his election campaign on anti-corruption. It doesn't seem to have got any better - perhaps worse.

Zelensky doesn't treat people well, but expects the red carpet himself. No time for him at all.

It's the same double standards  - Starmer complains about being sidelined by the USA and then invites a selection of leaders to his conference. Those left out complain they are being sidelined.

I repeat, innocent civilians and indeed soldiers are being killed whilst this shower jockey for position.

[Rem260]

16 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Reddit has videos.  They are hard to watch.  Ukrainian government shelled entire cities knowing civilian population was inside.  Leadership dragged from their homes and were never heard from again.    Before the US started laundering money via the Ukraine is was public.  The pro west installed government brought war on these people who voted for independence.  But there was far too many resources in those regions to allow them to leave.  As an American I would like to see those minerals and resources out of Russian control and in the hands of American influence.  But I can’t pretend it right.  As an American I have a soft spot in my heart for people gaining independence.  Our declaration of independence states that people have certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

That didn't work out to well for the first nation peoples or the Confederate states did it. The USA only follows these principles when it suits its own agenda.

[Minky]

16 hours ago, ordnance said:

It's a simple land grab by Putin 

Just an observation, it's like listening to RT news 🤔

 

15 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Soviet Union, Russia and Putin has expressed interest in joining NATO.  But there is no money in that.  If Russia joins nato then nato has no purpose and will stop being funded.  Russia is a threat, they are a superpower that is not the USA.  The USA will control the narrative of the west.  Doesn’t mean Russia is always in the wrong.  99% of the time I feel like America is in the right.  But I don’t want my tax dollars to go to this Ukrainian regime.  

 

14 hours ago, holloway said:

Its all as clear as mud then really ,Soviets could have been providing fake info from the start a bit like Donald Trump does all the time to justify the aggression , probably no right or wrong , i seem to remember the Nazis fabricating an attack from Poland troops to justify an invasion .
Thank-you for all answers , the next question being why then has the United states invested so much money in the defence of Ukraine up till now ?

 

 

14 hours ago, Stuarta said:

You have made it clear where you stand and if you don't want to to support the Ukraine I respect your position.

I would like to say I thought the way an elected leader of an invaded country was treated by your president and VP were disgusting and no one in the room had the guts to call them out. It is one thing to say no more money but to play the Putin mouth piece in front of the world demeaned the USA. Strong men and women are not bullies like they were but weak. Bullies in turn can be manipulated by bigger bullies, in this instance Putin.

The idea that Trump can handle Putin is laughable.

  

Well, there you go.   What a crock of residue.  To me the  meeting between zelenski and Trump just looked like a setup ambush.   Something out of the Stalin, putin, Kim il Jong manual of leadership. The gang are all assembled on the stage and a couple of goons march up to someone and roughly drag this bloke off stage.  The bloke who is being dragged away is calling out for help,,,, but the leadership is sort of ignoring the blokes appeals.  Everyone else is  suddenly reading through their notes. No one stands up for the bloke for fear t hat they get dragged out as well.  It also seems that we have  an element of the fifth column in our ranks.  And I don't care who starts on me for saying that.  AND as to someone's tax dollars going to Ukraine, I  notice that they don't mind my tax pounds going to fight in Iraq or parade our ships and aircraft carriers up near Japan and  China.  Trump says "Ukraine is right over ín EUROPE.  It's a European problem, nothing to do with us, but when CHINA moves against Taiwan no doubt the usa will expect the UK and the British Comonweath to come to the aid of the usa.  They have in nearly every other armed conflict since WW2.

[Bigteddy1954]

23 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Try 1994, they were memorandums, not treaties, as such intentions only, they could be chosen to be ignored..

You might also try the Ukrainian constitution which was broken first.....

 

Ukraine's Declaration of Sovereignty, adopted by parliament in 1990, declared it had the "intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles".

 

Which constitution they changed after the coup, when Yankovich was illegally overthrown and then pursued joining NATO and EU.

 

If you go back in time,  Ukraine broke it's obligations first, the West actively encouraging and financing them to do so, Russia has always responded.

 

Supporting an illegitimate Ukraine Government (there hasn't been one since 2013) is no different to supporting Hitler in WWII.... The difference is this time the western elites and MSM are telling you to support them

Hi stonepark I'm wrong ment to say the agreement was broken in 2024. Yes it was signed in 1994 .My apologies.

23 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Try 1994, they were memorandums, not treaties, as such intentions only, they could be chosen to be ignored..

You might also try the Ukrainian constitution which was broken first.....

 

Ukraine's Declaration of Sovereignty, adopted by parliament in 1990, declared it had the "intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles".

 

Which constitution they changed after the coup, when Yankovich was illegally overthrown and then pursued joining NATO and EU.

 

If you go back in time,  Ukraine broke it's obligations first, the West actively encouraging and financing them to do so, Russia has always responded.

 

Supporting an illegitimate Ukraine Government (there hasn't been one since 2013) is no different to supporting Hitler in WWII.... The difference is this time the western elites and MSM are telling you to support them

Hi stonepark I'm wrong ment to say the agreement was broken in 2024. Yes it was signed in 1994 .My apologies.

Sorry 2014