ditchman Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I am totally bumfluxed on what all of this is about....................can anyone explain to me in the simplest of terms what the junior doctors want ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 They don't want to have an increase of working hours forced upon them. The government raised their basic pay, and shouted from the tree tops that they had given doctors a pay raise. They also increased the amount of weekend hours they were required to work , without extra pay. Now I know myself if I was given for example a 10% pay rise, but expected to work 20% more hours, I wouldn't work that out as a pay rise! They then went through the proper channels to try and reject this "pay rise" , although it was mostly about the hours and weekend working. The government tried to go into talk, couldn't get what they wanted , then forcefully imposed the new contracts upon junior doctors regardless. I think I've essentially got it but I'm not sure if you mean something else ? I'm also sure I've put in far too simply probably! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 They don't want the new pay/hours/contract structures. But all new doctors now have it as their basic contact anyway with no choice, and the existing ones will have it implemented regardless if they don't accept it. It will be down to them to carry on or leave the NHS if that happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 As one who has worked a lifetime of 24/7 in a service industry I have little sympathy. However, perhaps the powers-that-be could have handled it better. What the whole health industry needs to come to grips with is that humans do not only go sick between 9 & 5 (with 2 hours for lunch) Monday to Friday. GP surgeries especially need to come into the 21st century. Family members and I have recent experience of the NHS during non emergency situations and are less than impressed with weekend cover. Note, I'm not knocking EMERGENCY cover, they do a marvellous job regardless of day/time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 As one who has worked a lifetime of 24/7 in a service industry I have little sympathy. However, perhaps the powers-that-be could have handled it better. What the whole health industry needs to come to grips with is that humans do not only go sick between 9 & 5 (with 2 hours for lunch) Monday to Friday. GP surgeries especially need to come into the 21st century. Family members and I have recent experience of the NHS during non emergency situations and are less than impressed with weekend cover. Note, I'm not knocking EMERGENCY cover, they do a marvellous job regardless of day/time. I found the exact opposite, my local GP you can fill in a form online and they phone you to come in usually the next day, it's very good. I also seriously pulled my back muscle last year and phoned NHS direct, they got me an appointment with an out of hours doctor at 10pm at the hospital, it had its own wing which was very quiet and I was seen very promptly and looked after incredibly well. Really can't praise them enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Tired stressed doctors make mistakes that have lifelong effects on the patients they treat and their families, the government seem to think that the already stressed and overworked doctors are pretending and should do more hours and become more stressed and risk making more mistakes, as a user of the NHS I want my doctors to be able to do their job to the best of their abilities. Those are the simple facts of the matter the rest is just politics and mud slinging for whatever political stance you wish to view it from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Tired stressed doctors make mistakes that have lifelong effects on the patients they treat and their families, the government seem to think that the already stressed and overworked doctors are pretending and should do more hours and become more stressed and risk making more mistakes, as a user of the NHS I want my doctors to be able to do their job to the best of their abilities. Those are the simple facts of the matter the rest is just politics and mud slinging for whatever political stance you wish to view it from My friend is a doctor currently, he did his 5 or 6 years, he's I think on his 3rd year post qualification, got any other 2-3 years training in all different specialities. When he's finished training he will have done 11 years of training/schooling (although at least the second half is paid). Working shift he often works very very long hours, is very stressed and deals with some horrifying and gruesome stuff. Also VERY often is something is happening the doctors don't just look at their watches and go "oh my shift is over now" and skip out, many times I've seen them stay on despite their time finishing hours before because a patient is critical or to cover on very busy periods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 They don't want to have an increase of working hours forced upon them. The government raised their basic pay, and shouted from the tree tops that they had given doctors a pay raise. They also increased the amount of weekend hours they were required to work , without extra pay. Now I know myself if I was given for example a 10% pay rise, but expected to work 20% more hours, I wouldn't work that out as a pay rise! They then went through the proper channels to try and reject this "pay rise" , although it was mostly about the hours and weekend working. The government tried to go into talk, couldn't get what they wanted , then forcefully imposed the new contracts upon junior doctors regardless. I think I've essentially got it but I'm not sure if you mean something else ? I'm also sure I've put in far too simply probably! That is certainly the message that is being put forward from the BMA. The counter argument is that the doctors who choose to work up to 90 hours weeks will have their maximum amount of hours cut to 70 hours per week so they will lose out, also the government sought to change the rate of pay for much of a Saturday to make it the same as Mon - Fri. There are of course some junior doctors who will have to work additional hours and they now have rota hours to cover the weekend as normal instead of the weekend being elective overtime. In real terms the majority of junior doctors actually have a pay rise even when pro-rated against the additional hours, albeit some of those additional hours are over the weekend. The only doctors that are losing out financially are those who chose to work their elective overtime hours over a weekend/night time when the rate was significantly higher and those who were working more than 70hrs per week. So of course the government line on this is that to give a balanced health care service over 7 days a week they are asking some doctors to work more for which they are being compensated and they are also reducing stress and fatigue on those doctors who currently work the very longest hours, albeit they will see a reduction in income; however it could be argued that in order for those who work the very longest hours to sustain their current level of income they are working a potentially unsafe amount of hours for both themselves and those under their care. That is also over simplified towards the counter argument. I have sympathy for both the junior doctors and also the government. In some ways they both hold each other to ransom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 We used to work 4 from 6 (days/nights/weekends) Always had a Saturday off.... Company wanted to change it to 4/5 from 7, no more guaranteed Saturday's off, Union said don't worry they can't make you do it, Company brought in a 90 day change of contract, union backed down. I see it as the same sort of thing. We are only getting from both sides what they want us to hear which makes them look like the injured party. We need a 24/7 365 day a year NHS. You shouldn't get a worse service because it's the weekend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) My my mum has been in hospital twice since Christmas. The first time they sent her home on Friday afternoon despite her being no way right to go home. They said a district nurse would be calling twice a day, we are still waiting! That early, and in my opinion unnecassary, discharge let directly to her being readmitted two weeks later. The second time I was ready for them. I told them I had to go to Wales at the weekend and I would be putting the chubb locks on the doors of her flat and she hadn't got a key. That was just to stop them sending her home again, I didn't go away. Visiting her in hospital over that weekend was a revelation. The place was a ghost town, I could walk through miles of corridors without seeing a soul. Everything was locked up and empty. Even the Costa Coffee shop was closed. It was a bit like one of those old Sci-Fi films where somebody wakes up one morning to find everyone else in the world had just disappeared without a trace. On my mums ward there was no staff, just one little Chinese nurse looking after the whole ward and she was there both days but hadn't been there during the week. She was very good but I suspect she was agency. She didn't know anything about my mum's history. Its absolutely riduculous to have all those facilities, a massive multi million pound hospital standing totally idle two days a week. Thats roughly 30% under utilisation. Its worse than that though, the place starts shutting down on Friday lunchtime and is not exactly running on all cylinders monday morning as they have "team meetings" and case reviews etc. Its like the place is waking from a deep sleep and has to start all over again from scratch every Monday. No other business could run that way in the 21st Century. The place is run like we are still in a 19th Century mindset about doctors hours and working practices. And no, I don't support the doctors, I think they get a raw deal and their pay and conditions are apalling but they have to provide a weekend service Edited March 9, 2016 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocette Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 My friend is a doctor currently, he did his 5 or 6 years, he's I think on his 3rd year post qualification, got any other 2-3 years training in all different specialities. When he's finished training he will have done 11 years of training/schooling (although at least the second half is paid). Working shift he often works very very long hours, is very stressed and deals with some horrifying and gruesome stuff. Also VERY often is something is happening the doctors don't just look at their watches and go "oh my shift is over now" and skip out, many times I've seen them stay on despite their time finishing hours before because a patient is critical or to cover on very busy periods. My brother was in the same situation some years ago,,but his and his fellow juniors believed that that was the price you paid for a career you chose and would be eventually very handsomely rewarded for. Anything else is just politics and mudslinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 My friend is a doctor currently, he did his 5 or 6 years, he's I think on his 3rd year post qualification, got any other 2-3 years training in all different specialities. When he's finished training he will have done 11 years of training/schooling (although at least the second half is paid). Working shift he often works very very long hours, is very stressed and deals with some horrifying and gruesome stuff. Also VERY often is something is happening the doctors don't just look at their watches and go "oh my shift is over now" and skip out, many times I've seen them stay on despite their time finishing hours before because a patient is critical or to cover on very busy periods. I agree and yet a dentist can walk straight out into private practice, choose their own hours and a six figure salary. Very little stress and very little personal or professional risk. They don't have to make life or death decisions on a daily basis, any one of which could easily end their career. The doctors work in apalling conditions but it is up to them to move the goalposts and striking is not the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 A massive increase in the population, Not matched by the availability of your GP. They obviously require more hours to cover more patients. But hey ! let's see, oh dear no increase in,,, Hours in a day or days in a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I agree and yet a dentist can walk straight out into private practice, choose their own hours and a six figure salary. Very little stress and very little personal or professional risk. They don't have to make life or death decisions on a daily basis, any one of which could easily end their career. The doctors work in apalling conditions but it is up to them to move the goalposts and striking is not the way. But given that they tried to negotiate and neither party wanted to budge , followed by the government saying they will forcefully impose the contract regardless , what other option does an employee have than to withhold their labour (strike) or to leave ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Having enjoyed the services of the NHS - or at least several members of my family have - rather too much recently 80-90% of what I've seen is excellent and compared to many other occupations the nurses and doctors are worth much much more than they are currently paid. Having said this I fully accept the public purse has limits but the big issue I have with Hunt's comments relates to the death rate at weekends and quite frankly I feel he is talking out of his backside. Some other idiot has probably misinterpreted the stats or at least they have not fully understood what is behind this and have sold it to Hunt who, rather stupidly, refuses to back down and keeps trotting out the same carp. I've heard many explanations as to why weekend mortality rate appears higher and without exception they all appear valid. Statistics should never be taken at face value and I cannot believe a government minister can be so niaive. I do not support this strike action but I really feel DC should replace Hunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 A massive increase in the population, Not matched by the availability of your GP. They obviously require more hours to cover more patients. But hey ! let's see, oh dear no increase in,,, Hours in a day or days in a week. I think it's a big combination of factors, More people, less resources, time wasters, people coming to their GP for minor things and wasting their time, people coming for conditions just to get a sick note/ benefits, over spills from other under resources areas (mental health when under resources often over spills into other departments) , people with "self inflicted" conditions such as obesity and diabetes , alcoholism , smoking all having implications on their health! As always it's complicated and hard to find an unbiased view of what is really going on from someone without an agenda! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Tired stressed doctors make mistakes that have lifelong effects on the patients they treat and their families, the government seem to think that the already stressed and overworked doctors are pretending and should do more hours and become more stressed and risk making more mistakes, as a user of the NHS I want my doctors to be able to do their job to the best of their abilities. Those are the simple facts of the matter the rest is just politics and mud slinging for whatever political stance you wish to view it from Absolutely! Everywhere else in the world will welcome them with open arms, so just another eventual loss to us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Loads of people in various occupations now have to work either more for similar money - or the same hours for less since cheap labour became more available, and work weekends at flat rate too. That's just modern life I'm afraid - and as has been pointed out - medical conditions are 24/7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Loads of people in various occupations now have to work either more for similar money - or the same hours for less since cheap labour became more available, and work weekends at flat rate too. That's just modern life I'm afraid - and as has been pointed out - medical conditions are 24/7. Except we don't have "cheap labour" to replace them. Those people face a choice, take it on the chin, strike, or leave. Doctors are choosing to strike, they have taken the option to withhold their labour. Fortunately for the sick and ill other doctors have said they will step up and work to make sure the effects of this are limited. What if the strike results in them leaving ? There isn't any "cheap labour" to replace them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clakk Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 our town has seen massive growth in the past year over 700 hoses being built and filled so the doctors moved to a large shiny new building BUT no more extra doctors to cover the massive rise in people .3 to 4 weeks to see your doctor ,NO appointments left this week sir ,only do bloods in the morning ,fat lot of use to a shift worker.You either treat your self from the chemist,s or the nasty you have has time to take hold and spread and yes our doctors are closed for an hour for lunch and all weekend.Yes they do have to do lots of training to be a doctor but they are well rewarded for their career choice.Their choice and there is no cheap alternative labour to take their place so they can strike and it will have a big knock on effect as there,s no way of catching up on all the cancelled operations so only the patients suffer and no one wins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalahari Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 My wife worked as a hospital doctor in the NHS starting as a junior and ending up as a consultant anaesthetist. She worked far longer hours than the current bunch of juniors with no extra pay for extra hours. After a long struggle they were awarded a 10% pay for extra hours. That is they were paid at 1/10th. the full rate for extra hours. This frequently added up to about 80 - 90 hours/week. The current juniors complain about not getting enough experience but where do they think experience comes from? The coal face folks, if they won't put in the time they don't see the cases. A large part of the problem is also the increased percentage of women doctors. More women doctors graduate now than men but a large proportion of them only work part time which makes a huge dent in the total number of doctor hours available. David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I think a person that can mend people should be driven to work in a Rolls Royce and be paid accordingly. The pen pushers should shut up and eat corned beef. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted March 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I think a person that can mend people should be driven to work in a Rolls Royce and be paid accordingly. The pen pushers should shut up and eat corned beef. yeah...you are so right.................as it is a darn sight cheaper than employing london agency landrover bods to mend your vehicle at £75.00/hr labour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 How are you getting along ditchy? We need Doctors the established ones and new blood. They should be treated as the untouchables - the right ones. We need to pay them well, very well. Doctor's also need to start running the NHS at Board Level and start sacking accountants and administrators who cannot mend people. This "Trust" business is a complete fiasco as they all (mostly) owe millions of pounds. Tomorrow Cameron needs to shove 2p on income tax, give it all to the NHS and sort this debacle out but he is **** weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I found the exact opposite, my local GP you can fill in a form online and they phone you to come in usually the next day, it's very good. I also seriously pulled my back muscle last year and phoned NHS direct, they got me an appointment with an out of hours doctor at 10pm at the hospital, it had its own wing which was very quiet and I was seen very promptly and looked after incredibly well. Really can't praise them enough! Perhaps so but that is general practice you are talking about, which is completly different to the doctors and 24/7 service we are discussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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