THE EU - IN OR OUT AND SHOOTING MATTERS

[Towngun]

This topic started off with a discussion about the New Browning B15 which led off to other topical issues that I think should be discussed.

Here is a view:

So let me see, we need to be in the EU in order to trade with the EU and yet this gun (B15) is made in Japan and finished in the EU because it is too expensive to make in the EU but not outside the EU and then import halfway across the world! So apart from Beretta it is no longer possible to make guns within the EU, just finish them, that is within reasonable cost!

Maybe all "would-be" Browning owners should vote for exit. Europe has zero growth, record unemployment and lacks direction and identity. I'd put money on a fall in the euro and a rise in the pound. Cheaper Browning's, cheaper Beretta! Also the dreaded VAT, remember the EU controls VAT as well as most other things!

PPS: Not to mention the EU anti gun lobby's equally illogical "White Paper" that proposes an outright ban on legal gun ownership in order to stop illegal gun use caused by legally open borders permitting illegal guns to be driven across borders with immunity. As far as I know a Jihadist doesn't normally use a side by side or for that matter apply for a licence to buy an AK47!

I ask you, why close borders when you can ban all legal gun ownership in spite of the absence of legally held guns being used in gun crime. Sounds like political posturing from an EU bureaucrat that doesn't have a worry about getting democratically elected or un-elected.

Who knows an independent Britain may be good news for honest legitimate gun ownership at a reasonable price?

Edited June 6, 2016 by Towngun

[besty57]

You're preaching to the converted hear mate.

[saddler]

A Brexit would mean the new EU-wide changes to deactivated gun specifications would not apply....

At present the UK government has agreed to comply & it's NOT been legal to buy/sell a deact in the U.K. since April...! (That was the date after which all deactivated guns must meet the new spec.)

The new specification has yet to be agreed by the EU!

[panoma1]

Why would any sane person vote for more or worse of what we've been getting? At least if our elected government don't spend our money the way we want, or perform to our satisfaction we can vote em out!.......

Everyone in this country chips in to the money our government gives to the EU via tax, it's our money! VAT etc. big business, the financial sector, farmers etc etc get some of it back in grants and subsidies....no wonder people involved in these institutions want to "remain"......on the other hand what do we as ordinary UK taxpayers get as citizens of the fifth largest economy on earth? Longer hospital waiting times, some unfortunate people survive from charity from food banks, unable to get our kids into our chosen schools, our youngsters racking up enormous debts for a university education, little chance of getting social housing, no chance of buying your own home, restrictions or a ban as unaffordable on the provision of life extending drugs, non existent social care for the old and vulnerable, police failing to attend reported crimes, UK workers unable to take low paid jobs because they can't support their family on subsistence wages (but there are plenty of migrant workers who will jump at these jobs because subsistence wages in the UK is top money in Bulgaria, Poland etc etc!)........no wonder some farmers bleat that they would not be able to survive without cheap seasonal migrant labour...when they really mean they would not be able to rake in such large profits!.....

 

I would be interested to know what ordinary people get for our money for being in the EU? Any suggestions?

[Hendrix's rifle]

Why would any sane person vote for more or worse of what we've been getting? At least if our elected government don't spend our money the way we want, or perform to our satisfaction we can vote em out!.......

Everyone in this country chips in to the money our government gives to the EU via tax, it's our money! VAT etc. big business, the financial sector, farmers etc etc get some of it back in grants and subsidies....no wonder people involved in these institutions want to "remain"......on the other hand what do we as ordinary UK taxpayers get as citizens of the fifth largest economy on earth? Longer hospital waiting times, some unfortunate people survive from charity from food banks, unable to get our kids into our chosen schools, our youngsters racking up enormous debts for a university education, little chance of getting social housing, no chance of buying your own home, restrictions or a ban as unaffordable on the provision of life extending drugs, non existent social care for the old and vulnerable, police failing to attend reported crimes, UK workers unable to take low paid jobs because they can't support their family on subsistence wages (but there are plenty of migrant workers who will jump at these jobs because subsistence wages in the UK is top money in Bulgaria, Poland etc etc!)........no wonder some farmers bleat that they would not be able to survive without cheap seasonal migrant labour...when they really mean they would not be able to rake in such large profits!.....

 

I would be interested to know what ordinary people get for our money for being in the EU? Any suggestions?

My answer, **** all. Shafted is all we get, bent over and shafted.

[Gunnut]

I'm with Panoma1 a good write up, It must be an out vote for me personally.

[TONY R]

I want out i really do, but i think as it gets closer the scare mongers have started to win over those in doubt who are migrating to the stay camp.

I just cant see us getting out, its a shame it really is an oppotunity missed i feel.

VOTE OUT.

[Taffthemagicdragon]

I would like to stay in ,but the rules have got to change immigration is a small part of it need to tone down Brussels dictating to everyone.

They just a bunch of useless Wayne kers who have no constructive work to do

[tigger got stichs]

out is the only way forward, if we are still in after the vote we will be ****** over big time coz we will be seen to be to scared to break away and do our own thing

[ShootingEgg]

I would like to stay in ,but the rules have got to change immigration is a small part of it need to tone down Brussels dictating to everyone.

They just a bunch of useless Wayne kers who have no constructive work to do

So it must change, and they are wayne kers but you want to stay in...

 

 

It will only change when it crumbles and takes us down with it...

[rjimmer]

There is no way that the EU establishment will change if we remain in it, Cameron's attempts (if genuine) during the last year have shown that.

[mossberg-operator]

This topic started off with a discussion about the New Browning B15 which led off to other topical issues that I think should be discussed.

 

Here is a view:

 

So let me see, we need to be in the EU in order to trade with the EU and yet this gun (B15) is made in Japan and finished in the EU because it is too expensive to make in the EU but not outside the EU and then import halfway across the world! So apart from Beretta it is no longer possible to make guns within the EU, just finish them, that is within reasonable cost!

 

Maybe all "would-be" Browning owners should vote for exit. Europe has zero growth, record unemployment and lacks direction and identity. I'd put money on a fall in the euro and a rise in the pound. Cheaper Browning's, cheaper Beretta! Also the dreaded VAT, remember the EU controls VAT as well as most other things!

 

PPS: Not to mention the EU anti gun lobby's equally illogical "White Paper" that proposes an outright ban on legal gun ownership in order to stop illegal gun use caused by legally open borders permitting illegal guns to be driven across borders with immunity. As far as I know a Jihadist doesn't normally use a side by side or for that matter apply for a licence to buy an AK47!

 

I ask you, why close borders when you can ban all legal gun ownership in spite of the absence of legally held guns being used in gun crime. Sounds like political posturing from an EU bureaucrat that doesn't have a worry about getting democratically elected or un-elected.

 

Who knows an independent Britain may be good news for honest legitimate gun ownership at a reasonable price?

. Let me be clear to You. The UK goverment also got the same agenda: to eliminate all legal gun ownership in the long term.

[FalconFN]

. Let me be clear to You. The UK goverment also got the same agenda: to eliminate all legal gun ownership in the long term.

There is simply no evidence for that statement.

 

Panoma, the theory goes that as an entity the EU has greater bargaining power outside the EU and simpler trading arrangements within so international and inter-continental traders benefit = more profit = more jobs and more tax = we are all better off. This is probably true if you look at all of the EU as a whole, and to some large extent the UK, but whether the trade off between bad bits you outline and the overall benefits is worth membership is the question. Currently the UK is doing relatively well economically, but that will not always be the case, so in the very long term when hard times come again (as they surely will) would we then try to crawl back to the EU nest for handouts? And if so would they let us?

[anser2]

For some time I was undecided, but after a lot of research there is no doubt that its best for the country if we stay in. Both politicians on sides are blatant liars with Boris, Fox, Cameron and Gould being by far the worst. Before you make your mind up read around the subject (there are dozens of economic forecasts out there from a very wide range of opinions, but many with no axe to grind in this mess) and 90% of them all point one way. If we leave we will be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

 

If we leave we will still have high immigration rates. We could cut the number of immigrants by half tomorrow if the political will was there as the majority of immigrants come from outside the EU not from within it. But we are an ageing population making high demands on our NHS and these demands will go up in the near future. So our Nation insurance is going to have to rise steeply to pay for the NHS unless we get a pool of workers who pay tax and NI and make little demands on the NHS ect. Most immigrants are young, make few demands on our social security, but they are paying the tax needed to run our NHS. Most of Europe pays about 9-10% GDP into their health services, the UK pays 6%. Of course we could keep the payments back from the EU and plough them into the health service, but over the past few years Gold, Fox, and Boris have all advocated privatising the NHS so where will that money go that we are now paying to the EU, my bet will be tax breaks for the super rich. Of course we could leave, keep the immigrants out and pay a lot more on our NI. I have no love for immigrants and bemoan the loss of the British traditional way of life, but if this country is to prosper in the wider world the EU is a necessary evil, a club we have to be a member of.

[ordnance]

I would be more concerned about Uk firearms restrictions than ones coming from the EU, any that do come from the EU will be backed by most UK politicians. Apart from N/I were most politicians are not anti / gun.

[deadeye18]

. Let me be clear to You. The UK goverment also got the same agenda: to eliminate all legal gun ownership in the long term.

True.

[12gauge82]

For some time I was undecided, but after a lot of research there is no doubt that its best for the country if we stay in. Both politicians on sides are blatant liars with Boris, Fox, Cameron and Gould being by far the worst. Before you make your mind up read around the subject (there are dozens of economic forecasts out there from a very wide range of opinions, but many with no axe to grind in this mess) and 90% of them all point one way. If we leave we will be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

 

If we leave we will still have high immigration rates. We could cut the number of immigrants by half tomorrow if the political will was there as the majority of immigrants come from outside the EU not from within it. But we are an ageing population making high demands on our NHS and these demands will go up in the near future. So our Nation insurance is going to have to rise steeply to pay for the NHS unless we get a pool of workers who pay tax and NI and make little demands on the NHS ect. Most immigrants are young, make few demands on our social security, but they are paying the tax needed to run our NHS. Most of Europe pays about 9-10% GDP into their health services, the UK pays 6%. Of course we could keep the payments back from the EU and plough them into the health service, but over the past few years Gold, Fox, and Boris have all advocated privatising the NHS so where will that money go that we are now paying to the EU, my bet will be tax breaks for the super rich. Of course we could leave, keep the immigrants out and pay a lot more on our NI. I have no love for immigrants and bemoan the loss of the British traditional way of life, but if this country is to prosper in the wider world the EU is a necessary evil, a club we have to be a member of.

Load of rubbish, can't be bothered with more of a response than that, didn't read past your first full stop. No one can say with certainty we're definitely better off in

[mossberg-operator]

There is simply no evidence for that statement.

. There is simply no evidence to my statement, that You or I can have access! Pls look around You! Don't ignore all the little things leading to it, it is called salami tactic. Just getting harder and harder. There is always a new restriction/condition/obstacle/etc getting introduced for legal gun owners. Tell me that I'm wrong, pls?

[panoma1]

Load of rubbish, can't be bothered with more of a response than that, didn't read past your first full stop. No one can say with certainty we're definitely better off in

+1

[Livefast123]

I really can't believe any of the clap trap coming out of both sides of the argument and I believe that the reprecussions from the corruption involved in this referendum will rumble on for decades after the event.

 

For me, it boils down to one simple question. Do I want to be governed by MPs that can be held to account by the British people or faceless eurocrats that we have no power over at all?

 

It is a simple choice for me and I vote to have confidence in Great Britain outside of the EU. If Cameron thinks he is going to get EU change after a remain vote he is obviosly trying to hoodwink voters, he couldn't get change when we were threatening to leave!

 

A remain vote is to vote for the UK to be assimilated into a region of Europe controlled by Frauline Merkel. That is why the EU want the populice disarmed, to leave us helpless.

[deadeye18]

I really can't believe any of the clap trap coming out of both sides of the argument and I believe that the reprecussions from the corruption involved in this referendum will rumble on for decades after the event.

 

For me, it boils down to one simple question. Do I want to be governed by MPs that can be held to account by the British people or faceless eurocrats that we have no power over at all?

 

It is a simple choice for me and I vote to have confidence in Great Britain outside of the EU. If Cameron thinks he is going to get EU change after a remain vote he is obviosly trying to hoodwink voters, he couldn't get change when we were threatening to leave!

 

A remain vote is to vote for the UK to be assimilated into a region of Europe controlled by Frauline Merkel. That is why the EU want the populice disarmed, to leave us helpless.

100% spot on,well said sir.

[Westward]

We could cut the number of immigrants by half tomorrow if the political will was there as the majority of immigrants come from outside the EU not from within it. But we are an ageing population making high demands on our NHS and these demands will go up in the near future. So our Nation insurance is going to have to rise steeply to pay for the NHS unless we get a pool of workers who pay tax and NI and make little demands on the NHS ect. Most immigrants are young, make few demands on our social security,

That's a neat litle Lib/Dem style theory which unfortunately isn't borne out in practice. A very high proportion of immigrants, especially those from outside the EU, have multiple health issues up to and including disabilities and this has been the case ever since large scale immigration from India/Pakistan/Sri Lanka began in the 60s. Even now, these countries cannot provide a full scale health service to their own people, and the NHS, as it always has been, is a gigantic magnet to such people. And now we are seeing ever increasing numbers of young male "refugees" from Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya etc. and multiple **** holes in Africa, the problem of supporting people with no education, no skills, often no language and nowhere to live causes ever increasing costs to the taxpayer and with no end in sight.

 

Huge numbers of immigrants want to work but they rarely have any desire to fully participate in our society. They want the money, the schools, the NHS, the tax credits etc for a few years whilst they raise their children and remit as much cash as possible back to their home country but hardly any EU migrants when surveyed, expect to stay more than a few years.

 

I seriously doubt if, on balance, mass immigration brings any tangible economic benefit to the country and I wouldn't be surprised if it actually costs us. Today's situation is incomparably different from earlier times when people migrated here wanting to stay and integrate. Instead, what we have today is a situation where this country adds value to the lives of 100s of thousands of temporary residents and their dependants across the world, whereas what we actually need and want is 10s of thousands who add value to Britain as well as to themselves.

[Danger-Mouse]

Today's situation is incomparably different from earlier times when people migrated here wanting to stay and integrate. Instead, what we have today is a situation where this country adds value to the lives of 100s of thousands of temporary residents and their dependants across the world, whereas what we actually need and want is 10s of thousands who add value to Britain as well as to themselves.

 

Well said sir.

[Walker570]

Add another to that. It is a simple stated fact that the plan is to turn every country within Europe and even some eg Turkey outside Europe into a United States of Europe, for that read USSR. The 'Project' will fail, the euro will collapse and some of us predicted this ten years ago and if we still stayed in then it would cost us dear. You only have to look at the list of failed politicians who have feather their nests out of the ordinary working mans pocket and in some cases their relatives as well ...Kinnock somehow springs to mind and there are numerous others across Europe e.g. Tusk from Poland, elected as President of the EU by the sycophants within the parliament and trebled his salary, for doing what? Nothing useful.

A company who had not cleared their accounts within one year would be in serious trouble with it's shareholders ...remind me how many...20 ? years and the accounts for the EU have still not been signed off. Waste of our money... when two members of the EU Elite fly to the same meeting in separate private jets. We in the UK have always given some form of support to agriculture, but we have never asked them to erect signs within view of the public road announcing the money was supplied by the EU and have to maintain those signs for five years.

I remember back when there was a guaranteed price scheme for farmers before the EU. A price was agreed as a base and if when a farmer sold his produce it was lower, then the government made the difference up. Today the EU is covering our food producing fields with sheets of glass and having farmers grow non food crops in order to make gas to produce electricity ... where are we going to get our food from ...import it of course, so causing serious balance of payments problems.

 

Anyone who votes to still support the leeches in the EU Parliament, really need to take a second look at their decision.

 

That woman from the IMF was placed by the EU, without a doubt and the IMF have got it so wrong on so many occasions. All of those 'elites' including the bunch of 'artists' have only their own future/pocket in mind.

 

The big danger is that OUR government/parliament will not do as we want and will jig up some stupid arrangement where we are just as worse off. I saw how the New Zealand government got their fingers out when we dumped them for the EU (remember how many of their fine young men never went home after both World Wars) they built up trade with everyone and everybody, in particular the far east. No reason why we cannot go it alone.

 

Don't even get me on the possibility of a European Army !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Guess which way I'm voting ?

[Savhmr]

You really have to ignore, almost completely, the arguments being put forwards by the absolute numpties heading up the "Remain" or "Leave" camps. They are putting forward non-arguments centred on winning popular vote through sensationalist politics much of which is based on untruths at worst and on shaky ground at best.

 

The real facts don't need to forward that many specific figures as the average "Joe" in the street has the tools to inform themselves (ie google Office for National Statistics, or the CBI reports and make your own mind up based on any agendas which may lay beneath their figures or presentation).

 

The real facts are these:

 

• The Euro is failing and will continue to drop in value. The richer EU nations have to accept that the poorer forgo the original concepts of confirming to financial entry criteria, in effect leaving the better off countries funding their entry, including funding their social reform bills which are HUGE. This is why the Euro will keep on falling, that and the need to pay for bailing out Greece and Italy and Spain who are all running massive deficits and who owe a shed load of cash to the EU which we all know they haven't a snowballs' chance in hell of repaying;

 

• The open borders may only account for 50% immigration from the EU but much of that (proven) is for the lower wage categories such as minimum wage farm work and in effect, many recent studies have demonstrated how this has held down our own wages whilst crippling many rural economies by denying the young the sort of labouring jobs they once could walk into. Not any more. There are gang hands now controlling who works where and in many cases they exercise positive discrimination towards the Polish and Lithuanians and Romanians who come over for such work;

 

• Salaried and unelected bureaucrats run the EU, not our democratically elected MEPs. They may forward papers and may be involved in Euro wide consultation with the European Parliament but they do not have the power to pass EU law. We have very little influence in reality, and less so since Cameron got into power and pretty much alienated the UK from the rest of Europe with his childish and arrogant non-diplomacy. He simply is not skilled nor experienced enough. The UK has forgotten the major point that Churchill himself made about Britain's place in Europe, and that is: we MUST remain the EU's staunchest allie and be friends with our European neighbours without actually becoming part of the Federal Union. So what do we do? We entrench ourselves within the federal union and ruin relations with our EU neighbours....nice one. Shows the true calibre of our politicians.

 

• We do not operate a true democracy and in effect, no country does, but what we have is as good as it gets. Forget ideology and look around you at the real world. Look at Europe and ask yourself "is this model even part way realistically a democracy anymore?" and the answer, is very clearly "NO!". Many EU laws are passed by unelected Bureaucrats. We have little to no say. That's a fact. Our laws if they clash with EU laws, become subservient to them, so in effect, the EU's attempts at reducing cultural boundaries in readiness for a Federal United States of Europe has destroyed a sense of national identity and weakened our own judicial system;

 

• Immigration cannot be controlled under the current system of open borders. At least if we leave we can enact tighter laws and controls but it could take 5 years to see any real improvement to controls. Don't kid yourselves much will change overnight as it wont. In fact things will get worse if we leave since the Schengen agreement at least means that the French have to enact border controls at their sea ports on our behalf to prevent illegal immigration from those outside the EU. Those border controls will vanish overnight if we leave and our own border controls are completely ineffective since we have no navy nor effective coast guard protection in the way of staffing and patrols nor in sufficient detention centres. Who will pay for all of this? You will when it happens.

 

• Trade will carry on regardless of what Bliar, Major and Cameron say. Do they think we're stupid? However we wont benefit from the deals we have at the minute so the cost of trading will have to rise, and , just like Norway and Iceland, we WILL have to comply with EU wide trading legislation including employment laws, H&S laws etc but I see that as a positive thing since left to out own devices, the government would screw the average working man given half the chance. Our current VAT wouldn't disappear and we wouldn't be better off by 20% overnight, as it would have to contribute towards the costs of compliance with EU trade agreements, IF reached.

 

The outlook either way is not rosy, is it? lets be honest...whether we stay or leave, things are going to get tougher. Only those in denial about the facts could argue against that. The big "however" is that the "unknown" wont be unknown for that long and at most, 5 to 10 years is what most respected economists suggest for the UK recovering growth and for Sterling stabilising. There is no recession looming...look to the stock market....how many companies are going out of business at the prospect? Even the head of a large coffee chain employing 35,000 people in the UK is firmly in the "leave" camp as he believes it's our best chance of long term growth and reclaiming our democracy.

 

In conclusion; you'd have to be barmy to vote "leave" IF the status quo was maintained as we are not only the world's 5th largest economy and one of the highest growth economies in the EU, and it is the membership of the EU that has enabled that, simple as. However, the status quo will NOT be maintained. Our veto is up for grabs again and the historical trend for our net contribution has risen from around an average of under 5 Billion per annum a decade or so ago to 8 Billion now, and is forecast to rise to 10 Billion in the next few years. That DOESN'T account for the cost of administrating our EU membership here in the UK. The administration burden amounts to many millions of pounds per year more, so the true net figures, which don't currently account for this, have been conveniently left out of the figures that the "stay" camp are banding about. Add to that continued uncontrolled immigration and the toll on our welfare services will be terminal within a few short years (as in 2 or 3 if you trust the figures being banded about) and the only thing that can pay for that will be a raid on state pensions, an increase in pensionable ages and a rise in taxes. We are all set to become very much poorer if we remain in the EU for a very long time to come.

 

The final consideration is that the EU is indeed falling apart with Italy threatening to leave next, and Greece has to leave to survive now. Us pulling out will be the catalyst to this happening. It will happen anyway and the debts left will be shared amongst those still in, and since we have one of the largest payments, we will carry a large burden of that in some way shape or form even if we are not in the Eurozone, we are tied financially to it. It will hit us most likely in the rebate reductions planned.

 

At least getting out now, we can hit the unknown head-on and chip away until we have made it much more certain by getting a head-start on trade deals, controlling our borders and reclaiming our democracy.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Savhmr