Brexit - merged threads

[mick miller]

The oft used phrase by our political classes is 'we need these highly skilled workers blah blah' whenever the freedom of movement or membership of the EU is discussed. I'm amazed you've missed it such has been the frequency of its use. The reality is somewhat different, just look to the U.S for examples of how genuinely skilled workers can be enticed and settled without the prerequisite of being part of a larger bloc or political agreement.
 

Of course, it's not surprising that the political classes mention things like this so often. They appear to have, over the years, confused democracy and social responsibility with pandering to the needs of large businesses. I think here lies the root of so many of the social, economic and political problems that we in the UK, Europe and indeed, the world face.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by mick miller

[oowee]

50 minutes ago, mick miller said:

He has a point though, we're always told how the UK economy needs these 'highly skilled workers', but the reality is that most appear to be sub standard tradesman, coffee baristas and delivery drivers with a questionable approach to personal property (as in, they nick stuff off the van). That and, of course, the ubiquitous Romanian beggars on the underground. So, it's a valid question; how many of these were actually 'highly skilled'?

🤣 My dentist is from Latvia, my ENT surgeon is from Italy, I have friends who are Spanish and Slovak Financial Analysts, a Slovak M&A lawyer, a Slovak Accountant and my wife is a Slovak Analyst, my daughters friends are Polish and French and are both doctors, my future son in law has friends from Italy, Poland and Czech who are Dr's of research, not a representative sample, i know. Its likely that the vast majority are employed in lower skilled work even though they are probably far from low skilled. Typically they start there and move on. 

My point being that the countries wealth relies upon many advanced companies that regularly trade labour back and forth together with family. If there is any sort of friction then this all starts to slow down and puts us at a disadvantage. Don't believe what you hear re points systems and allowing skilled workers that's not the point. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by oowee

[krugerandsmith]

4 minutes ago, mick miller said:

The oft used phrase by our political classes is 'we need these highly skilled workers blah blah' whenever the freedom of movement or membership of the EU is discussed. I'm amazed you've missed it such has been the frequency of its use. The reality is somewhat different, just look to the U.S for examples of how genuinely skilled workers can be enticed and settled without the prerequisite of being part of a larger bloc or political agreement.
 

Of course, it's not surprising that the political classes mention things like this so often. They appear to have, over the years, confused democracy and social responsibility with pandering to the needs of large businesses. I think here lies the root of so many of the social, economic and political problems that we in the UK, Europe and indeed, the world face.

 

 

We used to have plenty of skilled workers until Thatcher stopped Apprenticeships and introduced six month schemes.

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Great contribution as always. 

oowee - thanks. When you contribute anything worthwhile at all I will return the accolade. Yourself and Raja have made many posts on this thread, but I can't recall one that contained checkable facts. Plenty of opinion peddled as fact, though.

[ShootingEgg]

Looking like a whole year extension is in the offing.. So roll on the 29th march 2025 as it will just keep on extending.. 

[Medic1281]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

🤣 My dentist is from Latvia, my ENT surgeon is from Italy, I have friends who are Spanish and Slovak Financial Analysts, a Slovak M&A lawyer, a Slovak Accountant and my wife is a Slovak Analyst, my daughters friends are Polish and French and are both doctors, my future son in law has friends from Italy, Poland and Czech who are Dr's of research, not a representative sample, i know. Its likely that the vast majority are employed in lower skilled work even though they are probably far from low skilled. Typically they start there and move on. 

My point being that the countries wealth relies upon many advanced companies that regularly trade labour back and forth together with family. If there is any sort of friction then this all starts to slow down and puts us at a disadvantage. Don't believe what you hear re points systems and allowing skilled workers that's not the point. 

I’ve got highly qualified friends in Canada that can’t come here to work even though they want to because we have to advertise the job for 3 consecutive months and have no suitable applicants from the whole of the EU before they are eligible to apply!! Just because we’ve done a deal with Europe. It’s about time we opened up to the whole world and picked the best for the job, and not be restricted to Eastern European’s. 

[gustaff]

we need a government that can govern and rule the country as the voters asked and not be governed by the eu greedy bunch

[ShootingEgg]

14 minutes ago, Medic1281 said:

I’ve got highly qualified friends in Canada that can’t come here to work even though they want to because we have to advertise the job for 3 consecutive months and have no suitable applicants from the whole of the EU before they are eligible to apply!! Just because we’ve done a deal with Europe. It’s about time we opened up to the whole world and picked the best for the job, and not be restricted to Eastern European’s. 

Exactly this.. Never know, one day remainers might take the rose tinted specs off... 

[walshie]

22 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

Looking like a whole year extension is in the offing.. So roll on the 29th march 2025 as it will just keep on extending.. 

Do you think May will get beyond December? Her immunity from being booted out of her job is over then. Whoever takes over couldn't be such a megalomaniac.

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

All of the people I was referring to are skilled systems or software engineering professionals educated to at least the equivalent of BEng, a good mix with Masters and a handful with PhDs. They originate from various EU countries as well as a number on Tier 2 visas from India / Pakistan and oddly enough Egypt.

Good call on the caveat, the original post did come across a bit stereotypical. 

my ten bobs worth, i imagine all the people that left were contract workers, were renting in the area they worked, which likely means they were offered more money elsewhere or had worked away for a while and decided to go home, could be that something had changed so they decided to leave, nothing has happened yet so why would people leave otherwise.

As for skilled workers in this country, there are plenty but yes more are needed with apprentices being the best start, all the people apparently coming from abroad do us no good in the long term, same as premier league football, instant stars rather than growing our own through training and education.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Medic1281 said:

I’ve got highly qualified friends in Canada that can’t come here to work even though they want to because we have to advertise the job for 3 consecutive months and have no suitable applicants from the whole of the EU before they are eligible to apply!! Just because we’ve done a deal with Europe. It’s about time we opened up to the whole world and picked the best for the job, and not be restricted to Eastern European’s. 

Strange that my Wife has just recruited from Russia. Guess it's about what you know rather than what you don't. 

[Raja Clavata]

58 minutes ago, Mice! said:

my ten bobs worth, i imagine all the people that left were contract workers, were renting in the area they worked, which likely means they were offered more money elsewhere or had worked away for a while and decided to go home, could be that something had changed so they decided to leave, nothing has happened yet so why would people leave otherwise.

As for skilled workers in this country, there are plenty but yes more are needed with apprentices being the best start, all the people apparently coming from abroad do us no good in the long term, same as premier league football, instant stars rather than growing our own through training and education.

The vast majority were full time. As I already said there were a number of factors but Brexit didn’t help.

The company operate a pan-European employee mobility programme but the UK mobility side is pretty static at present which is hardly surprising given the current dynamic around uncertainty over Brexit.

[Raja Clavata]

4 hours ago, mick miller said:

The oft used phrase by our political classes is 'we need these highly skilled workers blah blah' whenever the freedom of movement or membership of the EU is discussed. I'm amazed you've missed it such has been the frequency of its use. The reality is somewhat different, just look to the U.S for examples of how genuinely skilled workers can be enticed and settled without the prerequisite of being part of a larger bloc or political agreement.
 

Of course, it's not surprising that the political classes mention things like this so often. They appear to have, over the years, confused democracy and social responsibility with pandering to the needs of large businesses. I think here lies the root of so many of the social, economic and political problems that we in the UK, Europe and indeed, the world face.

 

 

Fair enough, I was just checking that’s what you were referring to.

[Raja Clavata]

oowee - when you contribute something aligned with my neoliberal authoritarian nationalist views I’ll agree with you. You and that other oik have made numerous points that I have no real retort or comeback on and having somewhat overused my standard response of making accusations of being patronising or condescending I now resort to pointless quips of no real substance or meaning. Please forgive my small minded replies but at my age they are the best I can come up with.

[Vince Green]

The number of EU qualified staff in the NHS has never ever exceeded 5% . India has always massively beaten the EU by being at over 13% . Australia / New Zealand has always exceeded the EU as has the US and Canada (marginally).

The idea that the NHS is in any way reliant on EU  for staff is a complete fabrication.

3 hours ago, Medic1281 said:

I’ve got highly qualified friends in Canada that can’t come here to work even though they want to because we have to advertise the job for 3 consecutive months and have no suitable applicants from the whole of the EU before they are eligible to apply!! Just because we’ve done a deal with Europe. It’s about time we opened up to the whole world and picked the best for the job, and not be restricted to Eastern European’s. 

so true, people do not discuss the fact that the EU is protectionalist

[oowee]

5 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

oowee - when you contribute something aligned with my neoliberal authoritarian nationalist views I’ll agree with you. You and that other oik have made numerous points that I have no real retort or comeback on and having somewhat overused my standard response of making accusations of being patronising or condescending I now resort to pointless quips of no real substance or meaning. Please forgive my small minded replies but at my age they are the best I can come up with.

Good morning all.  

🤣 you made me spill my tea or wet myself, not quite so sure at this time of the morning. 

Off out stalking. 

[oowee]

5 hours ago, Vince Green said:

The number of EU qualified staff in the NHS has never ever exceeded 5% . India has always massively beaten the EU by being at over 13% . Australia / New Zealand has always exceeded the EU as has the US and Canada (marginally).

The idea that the NHS is in any way reliant on EU  for staff is a complete fabrication.

so true, people do not discuss the fact that the EU is protectionalist

That's interesting Vince. Am i reading that correctly then, that with india at 13% A and NZ Canada and the US each at around 6% and the EU at 5% making a total of 36% (plus a few from elsewhere) of qualified staff coming from outside the UK?

Does the same apply for non qualified staff? I am guessing that 'NHS' umbrella does not include elderly care where, I understand, EU workers make a significant contribution? This is only from what I have picked up in the press. 

[krugerandsmith]

10 hours ago, walshie said:

Do you think May will get beyond December? Her immunity from being booted out of her job is over then. Whoever takes over couldn't be such a megalomaniac.

Whats the old adage .....  Cast not a Clout till May is out.

[walshie]

Brexit has a lot to answer for. We all have our opinions and I respect anyone's right to hold and/or air an opinion, but this has turned into a bitchfest - and we haven't even left yet.

I've enjoy a decent discussion, but reading through this is making me cringe. Decent people are lowering themselves to snipes and digs, rather than just stating their views. Views are all they are as no-one can state "facts" based on something that we haven't done and no-one else has before us.

I'm normally the first to get stuck in if someone wants an argument, but not over something we have no control over.

For that reason I'm out.

 

[Yellow Bear]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

This is only from what I have picked up in the press.

And the press always tell the truthyest truth about everything,  🐂   

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

That's interesting Vince. Am i reading that correctly then, that with india at 13% A and NZ Canada and the US each at around 6% and the EU at 5% making a total of 36% (plus a few from elsewhere) of qualified staff coming from outside the UK?

Does the same apply for non qualified staff? I am guessing that 'NHS' umbrella does not include elderly care where, I understand, EU workers make a significant contribution? This is only from what I have picked up in the press. 

I understand that the movement of doctors to work here in the UK is motivated primarily by the relative earning powers between here and their home country

So we get more from India, Africa and middle east than from EU and Aus/NZ/Can/US

The real problem for this country is that we have not kept pace with training our own doctors and nurses because of the ready supply from abroad.  .

I don't know about non qualified staff, certainly my impression is that a lot of Eastern Europeans work in the care homes but in the home where my great aunt lives a lot of the staff are from Phillipines and I'm not sure how that happens. Do they recruit them directly or is there an agency? 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Vince Green

[Yellow Bear]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

 a lot of the staff are from Phillipines

According to SWMBO who trained and then worked in the NHS for the best part of 40 years this has been the case since she started.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

 

 

29th March 2019, April 12th 2019, May 22nd 2019, 25th December 2019, June 2020 or ?NEVER?

[oowee]

44 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

I understand that the movement of doctors to work here in the UK is motivated primarily by the relative earning powers between here and their home country

So we get more from India, Africa and middle east than from EU and Aus/NZ/Can/US

The real problem for this country is that we have not kept pace with training our own doctors and nurses because of the ready supply from abroad.  .

I don't know about non qualified staff, certainly my impression is that a lot of Eastern Europeans work in the care homes but in the home where my great aunt lives a lot of the staff are from Philipines and I'm not sure how that happens. Do they recruit them directly or is there an agency? 

I funded a program in Wolverhampton to recruit nurses from the Philippine's. back in the 90's. I remember they would come over eat nothing but rice and send home all of their money for the first two years. After that if they stayed they would put on loads of weight and get married.  Gross generalisation I am sure. 

[Jaymo]

25 minutes ago, oowee said:

I funded a program in Wolverhampton to recruit nurses from the Philippine's. back in the 90's. I remember they would come over eat nothing but rice and send home all of their money for the first two years. After that if they stayed they would put on loads of weight and get married.  Gross generalisation I am sure. 

That’s awful- let’s ban the sale of Rice 🙂