Brexit - merged threads

[Raja Clavata]

36 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Very wishful thinking !

Trump talking about access to the NHS (For drug sales that they already have) is just a blip on the landscape seized upon by remainers to keep the dream of remain alive.
Every UK politician has said its a no go, so sorry but its a GO GO 

Oh so we can believe what the politicians say when we like what it is they are saying? There, I changed it for you :-/

Fear not, I reckon Nige could well have a job for you in his Brexit Cabinet as his equivalent of Baghdad Bob :-P

[Aled]

22 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

No 'possibly' about it.  That was the cause.  Yes - Tory Leavers and Brexit MUST get together and field one LEAVE candidate at the next election and pick up ALL Tory, Brexit and Labour votes from those who want to leave.  Otherwise we will NEVER leave.

Now that would be interesting. What would happen to Tory candidates who backed remain?

[Raja Clavata]

43 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Very wishful thinking !

Trump talking about access to the NHS (For drug sales that they already have) is just a blip on the landscape seized upon by remainers to keep the dream of remain alive.
Every UK politician has said its a no go, so sorry but its a GO GO 

Oh so we can believe what the politicians say when we like what it is they are saying? There, I changed it for you 😕

Fear not, I reckon Nige could well have a job for you in his Brexit Cabinet as his equivalent of Baghdad Bob 😛

26 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

No 'possibly' about it.  That was the cause.  Yes - Tory Leavers and Brexit MUST get together and field one LEAVE candidate at the next election and pick up ALL Tory, Brexit and Labour votes from those who want to leave.  Otherwise we will NEVER leave.

This is getting to the crux of the matter. The flip side of course is that if Labour declare themselves as REMAIN and do the same thing with the other REMAIN parties then Brexit is most likely dead.

Not forgetting that REMAIN is a unified position whereas LEAVE is split between no deal and some kind of deal.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Raja Clavata

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, Aled said:

What would happen to Tory candidates who backed remain?

Deselected.  Happening possibly today to Dominic Grieve

 

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The flip side of course is that if Labour declare themselves as REMAIN and do the same thing with the other REMAIN parties then Brexit is most likely dead.

I don't think so.  Too many people are frightened of the Marxist policies Corbyn offers

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Deselected.  Happening possibly today to Dominic Grieve 

Looking scared!

 

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Edited June 7, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Newbie to this]

Seems Boris won't have anything to answer for. No surprise really, every politician would end up in court if this case went ahead!

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/boris-johnson-wins-high-court-challenge-brexit/

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I wonder what the failed hero will get crowdfunding for next, he's failed on Brexit and Boris so far.

[Aled]

If pro leave parties/candidates do combine to secure seats, as Raja says, it would be interesting to see if pro remain parties/candidates do the same, it would change the political landscape of the UK forever, and personally I would quite like to see some form of change within the UK political system!!

Cheers

Aled

[Rewulf]

49 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Oh so we can believe what the politicians say when we like what it is they are saying? There, I changed it for you 😕

Fear not, I reckon Nige could well have a job for you in his Brexit Cabinet as his equivalent of Baghdad Bob 😛

Where did I say I believed them ?
I personally believe 99 % of them speak with forked tongue, but if everyone thought like that, then no one would bother voting would they ?

 

52 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

This is getting to the crux of the matter. The flip side of course is that if Labour declare themselves as REMAIN and do the same thing with the other REMAIN parties then Brexit is most likely dead.

Again , wishful thinking , just pretend that 2016 never happened, and all the labour leave supporters will just get replaced by lib dems or greens ?
Now whos votes split ?

 

53 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not forgetting that REMAIN is a unified position whereas LEAVE is split between no deal and some kind of deal.

But its not really is it, youre a remainer , but you want to see reform, or are you ok with the EU in its present and future forms ?
What if we end up with the euro, another raft of Albanian/Serbian low skills migrants, with a healthy smattering of criminals mixed in?
Fiscal union and the EU army ?
Remain is what it is now , in 10 years time the EU may be a completely different animal, do you think it will get better ?
Why would it, we would be the example of what happens when you try to leave and get smacked back into line.

7 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I wonder what the failed hero will get crowdfunding for next, he's failed on Brexit and Boris so far.

More importantly , is he going to give everyone their money back now the case isnt happening ?

[Raja Clavata]

9 minutes ago, Aled said:

If pro leave parties/candidates do combine to secure seats, as Raja says, it would be interesting to see if pro remain parties/candidates do the same, it would change the political landscape of the UK forever, and personally I would quite like to see some form of change within the UK political system!!

Cheers

Aled

I think the desire for change is one thing we all agree on Aled, just not Change as in the joke of a political party...

[Raja Clavata]

15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Where did I say I believed them ?

I didn't say you did believe them.
I personally believe 99 % of them speak with forked tongue, but if everyone thought like that, then no one would bother voting would they ?

They'd still vote but would increase instances of strategic / protest voting?

Again , wishful thinking , just pretend that 2016 never happened, and all the labour leave supporters will just get replaced by lib dems or greens ?

Lost me there a bit...
Now whos votes split ?

see above.

But its not really is it, youre a remainer , but you want to see reform, or are you ok with the EU in its present and future forms ?

I'm a reformer, I'd take the EU today over Brexit tomorrow but if the doomsayers predictions unravel then we get more chances to tip them fish, and potentially by a larger majority.
What if we end up with the euro, another raft of Albanian/Serbian low skills migrants, with a healthy smattering of criminals mixed in?

On the Euro, like I said before remove option as part of A50 revocation negotiation. Harden our position on the attractiveness of the UK to low skill immigrants.
Fiscal union and the EU army ?

Devil in detail on fiscal union, kinda the same with EU army but if NATO / UN evaporates then we need a different mechanism to maintain our defence / arms industry.
Remain is what it is now , in 10 years time the EU may be a completely different animal, do you think it will get better ?

Not suggesting that, but again I refer to my previous comments on the option of reform or deciding to leave later on (this time with a joined up plan).
Why would it, we would be the example of what happens when you try to leave and get smacked back into line.

But consider what it would do to the EU in the process.

 

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't think so.  Too many people are frightened of the Marxist policies Corbyn offers

I wasn't suggesting Corbyn as PM, dread the thought, but a higher risk of happening under that scenario.

[WestonSalop]

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

I see Peterborough was won by Labour with a small majority, possibly because voting was split between brexit and tories, could be bad news at the next GE

I warned about this in another thread a couple of weeks back. Unless the Tories get their act together quickly and persuade us they can be relied upon, the split Brexit Party/Tory Party vote will automatically let Corbyn in at the next election Lord help us if that happens.

I know I keep spouting on about hating professional politicians but we are in the territory of having to pick the best of the worst. Ignore our departure from the EU for a second and think "would Brexit or Labour parties be capable of governing this country, if elected". Labour would be capable - but would ruin us. Brexit Party would not be capable because it has no prospective MPs (with one notable exception) with the necessary knowledge to govern. But that's just my personal view.

[old man]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Now that the general public have been directly exposed to some of the potential economic and, more importantly, provision of free for all healthcare issues around Brexit and see why the US, Russia and China might be in favour of us leaving the bloc, we could well observe the wheels falling off the Brexit bus. 

There's a certain irony about the NHS, and its bus, being one of the instruments that swings public opinion against Brexit. 

Please clarify the difference between a proposed new American free for all with the NHS and the current situation where lots has been outsourced already to Virgin etc? It's nearly all gone by stealth anyway probably lots via shell companies to their cronies? 

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, WestonSalop said:

But that's just my personal view.

And I think you are pretty much right ......... except that if you had a new 'clean' intake, the Sir Humphreys would continue to run the country 'steady as she goes' - but little would be achieved.

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm a reformer, I'd take the EU today over Brexit tomorrow but if the doomsayers predictions unravel then we get more chances to tip them fish, and potentially by a larger majority.

Then Im afraid, and no disrespect here, but you clearly dont understand how the EU works (with certain UK elements assistance)

Firstly the EU DOES NOT DO REFORM, its path is set, course laid in, it will not be swerved. This is very clear. Federal superstate or bust. And dont think they wont bust Europe trying to achieve it. 

You say we get more chances ? We only got this chance because of a miscalculation from a bumbling PM, both main parties campaigned to remain and have fought against the result from the very next day.
Is that fair representation ?

We end up staying after all this, 1- the EU will punish us. 2- We wont get another vote for 5 maybe 10 years if ever, because by then it will be too late.

If you have any doubts about choice in the matter of the EU , cast your mind back to when you got to vote on Maastrict or Lisbon treaties, the very things that made us intertwine ourselves with the economy and politics of other European countries, and the resultant mess we are in right now.
Do you remember going to the polls to vote on that ?

You talk about reform ?
There is NO MECHANISM within the EU for reform, the only way to make them change anything is to threaten them with something, and that rarely works.
Thats why your ideas of change are nothing more than a pipe dream.

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Very wishful thinking !

Trump talking about access to the NHS (For drug sales that they already have) is just a blip on the landscape seized upon by remainers to keep the dream of remain alive.
Every UK politician has said its a no go, so sorry but its a NO NO 

Correct! American firms, AND some from other countries, have been providing drugs etc to the NHs for a long time.  Just more socialist bovine scat,....remember their "24 hours to save the NHS"?  Utter garbage!

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

Seems Boris won't have anything to answer for. No surprise really, every politician would end up in court if this case went ahead!

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/boris-johnson-wins-high-court-challenge-brexit/

This has no doubt saddened one or two Boris haters on here?

[pinfireman]

48 minutes ago, WestonSalop said:

I warned about this in another thread a couple of weeks back. Unless the Tories get their act together quickly and persuade us they can be relied upon, the split Brexit Party/Tory Party vote will automatically let Corbyn in at the next election Lord help us if that happens.

I know I keep spouting on about hating professional politicians but we are in the territory of having to pick the best of the worst. Ignore our departure from the EU for a second and think "would Brexit or Labour parties be capable of governing this country, if elected". Labour would be capable - but would ruin us. Brexit Party would not be capable because it has no prospective MPs (with one notable exception) with the necessary knowledge to govern. But that's just my personal view.

But the Brexit Party is growing, and gaining a lot of very capable people along the way! Unlike the current crop of lawyers, trade union officials and general nobodies, The Brexit Party is gaining recruits from Business etc.....people who have actually done a proper days work! People who can run things.....plus, as you are probably aware, the incompetent Civil Service run most things on behalf of the government of the day!

Correct!

36 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Then Im afraid, and no disrespect here, but you clearly dont understand how the EU works (with certain UK elements assistance)

Firstly the EU DOES NOT DO REFORM, its path is set, course laid in, it will not be swerved. This is very clear. Federal superstate or bust. And dont think they wont bust Europe trying to achieve it. 

You say we get more chances ? We only got this chance because of a miscalculation from a bumbling PM, both main parties campaigned to remain and have fought against the result from the very next day.
Is that fair representation ?

We end up staying after all this, 1- the EU will punish us. 2- We wont get another vote for 5 maybe 10 years if ever, because by then it will be too late.

If you have any doubts about choice in the matter of the EU , cast your mind back to when you got to vote on Maastrict or Lisbon treaties, the very things that made us intertwine ourselves with the economy and politics of other European countries, and the resultant mess we are in right now.
Do you remember going to the polls to vote on that ?

You talk about reform ?
There is NO MECHANISM within the EU for reform, the only way to make them change anything is to threaten them with something, and that rarely works.
Thats why your ideas of change are nothing more than a pipe dream.

A wildly fantastic pipe-dream!

[Newbie to this]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Thats why your ideas of change are nothing more than a pipe dream.

Or as some might say

 "Unicorns"

[Gordon R]

I would love to see accounts for the Crowd Funded private prosecution, now that it has failed. It was a non starter from the outset, but Ball seems to have done quite nicely from it. I too wonder if any surplus funds will be returned. I won't hold my breath.

[Vince Green]

9 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Seems Boris won't have anything to answer for. No surprise really, every politician would end up in court if this case went ahead!

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/boris-johnson-wins-high-court-challenge-brexit/

Like Gordon said.

So does that mean that Marcus Ball who crowdfunded approx. half a million quid to fund the prosecution is now going to give the money back? Dream on!

Edited June 7, 2019 by Vince Green

[Jaymo]

Could be worse, you could be named “Cokey Gove”, that will be one less in the running. 

Forex reacted negatively to that snippet of news as he was touting an organised Brexit 

[ditchman]

quite honestly...it looks if he has never stopped..............it would explain a lot of things tho'...........as his septum is still intact he is proberly administering the powder "the french way"...up the old bounville boulevarde....

[Vince Green]

Natalie McGarry, former SNP MP and active remain supporter was jailed this week for 18 months for embezzling money that was in her care during her time as an MP, they managed to keep that very quiet didn't they?

[Rewulf]

43 minutes ago, ditchman said:

quite honestly...it looks if he has never stopped..............it would explain a lot of things tho'...........as his septum is still intact he is proberly administering the powder "the french way"...up the old bounville boulevarde....

He is a bit 'nasal: when he speaks 😂

However the word on the street is Chukkas not unknown for certain excesses... 

[Raja Clavata]

21 hours ago, old man said:

Please clarify the difference between a proposed new American free for all with the NHS and the current situation where lots has been outsourced already to Virgin etc? It's nearly all gone by stealth anyway probably lots via shell companies to their cronies? 

The published figures on outsourcing show about 15%, I'm assuming by saying it's nearly all gone you contest that figure (by definition quite a bit more than 50%)?

The issue with the yanks getting involved is that it's likely to evaporate at an alarming rate and we don't have a great track record of maintaining service levels in industries that have been privatised in this country. The NHS is far bigger and much more complicated than the others, therefore numerous ways it can go tits up and it will have a direct impact on the public.

21 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Then Im afraid, and no disrespect here, but you clearly dont understand how the EU works (with certain UK elements assistance)

Firstly the EU DOES NOT DO REFORM, its path is set, course laid in, it will not be swerved. This is very clear. Federal superstate or bust. And dont think they wont bust Europe trying to achieve it. 

You say we get more chances ? We only got this chance because of a miscalculation from a bumbling PM, both main parties campaigned to remain and have fought against the result from the very next day.
Is that fair representation ?

We end up staying after all this, 1- the EU will punish us. 2- We wont get another vote for 5 maybe 10 years if ever, because by then it will be too late.

If you have any doubts about choice in the matter of the EU , cast your mind back to when you got to vote on Maastrict or Lisbon treaties, the very things that made us intertwine ourselves with the economy and politics of other European countries, and the resultant mess we are in right now.
Do you remember going to the polls to vote on that ?

You talk about reform ?
There is NO MECHANISM within the EU for reform, the only way to make them change anything is to threaten them with something, and that rarely works.
Thats why your ideas of change are nothing more than a pipe dream.

I don't necessarily agree with you on this, I think the current political landscape in Europe is and will continue to see reforms - I might be wrong but you have no way of credibly claiming your position is the correct one. One thing I agree on is that the EU needs to reform or it will burn. I believe we are better placed than most other member states when that happens and this is part of my reasoning for my favouring remaining part of the bloc, for now.