Brexit - merged threads

[Rewulf]

The public order issues in France that European media seems reluctant to cover in any detail.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14643/france-sinking-chaos?fbclid=IwAR1MTRMa3CTMvdzkp5qQFCqhpGjjYQbgRia0n-EGgGufnF0Ufz-RUwbn2Eo#.XUYSM78D1BV.facebook

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Macrons Nemesis!

[Rewulf]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Macrons Nemesis!

I dont think ANYONE likes Macron these days.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I dont think ANYONE likes Macron these days.

Fair point!

 A small man vastly out of his depth!

Edited August 5, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Retsdon]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

And please dont start with the 'integrity' of its borders rubbish.

It's remarkable that hardline Brexiters who are so adamant that the UK should control its own borders are utterly dismissive of the members of the EU trade club wanting to control theirs There's a kind of cognitive dissidence at work here. The exact same mindset spills over into the bizarre logical fallacy that a crash-out Brexit should hold no fears for the UK but that the EU will 'blink first' because it fears a catastrophic loss in trade. Given that the trade balance is about equal, and given  that this balance is split between a single country on the one hand and 27 on the other......

But of course for many Brexit is not about reason anymore. It's become a faith-based religion instead and logic has become irrelevant.

[oowee]

No one wants a hard border, that's clear. If the UK wants to trade on WTO terms then both the EU and the UK can decide not to have a border but they must apply the same rule to all other countries. It cannot happen. They can agree not to use WTO trading terms and not have a hard border by way of a trade agreement but it will restrict what type of trading arrangement the UK has with the rest of the world. 

The EU has, in line with most other markets, a protected market place. Only where they have agreements in place can they manage without a border. The same is true of the UK. The UK must set out what type of trading arrangement it wants to put in place with the EU, to avoid a hard border.  If they want uninterrupted trade then they will have to sign up to trade controls.   

[Retsdon]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

Only where they have agreements in place can they manage without a border.

I don't think this is quite correct. Only within the Single Market it trans-border trade seamless. So that means EU or EEA members.. The goods of any other trade entity (country / trade bloc) , even if they have a 'free trade' agreement with the EU will be liable for subject to inspection and controls at the border. 

[Capt Christopher Jones]

20 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

It's remarkable that hardline Brexiters who are so adamant that the UK should control its own borders are utterly dismissive of the members of the EU trade club wanting to control theirs There's a kind of cognitive dissidence at work here. The exact same mindset spills over into the bizarre logical fallacy that a crash-out Brexit should hold no fears for the UK but that the EU will 'blink first' because it fears a catastrophic loss in trade. Given that the trade balance is about equal, and given  that this balance is split between a single country on the one hand and 27 on the other......

But of course for many Brexit is not about reason anymore. It's become a faith-based religion instead and logic has become irrelevant.

[Rewulf]

51 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

It's remarkable that hardline Brexiters who are so adamant that the UK should control its own borders are utterly dismissive of the members of the EU trade club wanting to control theirs There's a kind of cognitive dissidence at work here.

Not in the slightest.
Lets look at border control as regards non EU immigrants .
The EU says it will control its external borders, but it does very little, leaving it up to individual governments to battle against tides of economic refugees, streaming across borders and seas, turning a blind eye as they travel unmolested and undocumented across multiple countries ?
Then it turns round and threatens sanctions if you dont accept your 'quota'
Wheres the protection ?
We have decided we can better protect ours by leaving, and for that we get called racists.

 

58 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Given that the trade balance is about equal, and given  that this balance is split between a single country on the one hand and 27 on the other......

No its not, and that really isnt how it works, try again.

 

59 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

But of course for many Brexit is not about reason anymore. It's become a faith-based religion instead and logic has become irrelevant.

So I keep hearing, getting boring now.

 

56 minutes ago, oowee said:

No one wants a hard border, that's clear. If the UK wants to trade on WTO terms then both the EU and the UK can decide not to have a border but they must apply the same rule to all other countries.

This is clearly not correct.
If the EU can trade with countries on WTO terms , but strike trade 'deals' with Canada ect and other non EU countries, then they can do the same with the UK ,If they choose.
And for the sake of their members economies, would be wise to.

 

58 minutes ago, oowee said:

They can agree not to use WTO trading terms and not have a hard border by way of a trade agreement but it will restrict what type of trading arrangement the UK has with the rest of the world. 

Why is that then, again clearly not so.

 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The EU has, in line with most other markets, a protected market place. Only where they have agreements in place can they manage without a border.

'Protection' in this case simply refers to tariffs and (supposedly) standards, but mostly tariffs, as many a defective or unsafe item has made it through (Chinese toxic sofas anyone ?)
Again, its not protection, its a tax/cash generator.

 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The UK must set out what type of trading arrangement it wants to put in place with the EU, to avoid a hard border.  If they want uninterrupted trade then they will have to sign up to trade controls.   

Errr... We want a free trade agreement, its always been the goal, the EU doesnt want to give it without wads of cash being thrown at them, and seeing as most Irish trade goes North to US ,  why have WE got to bend over ?!

 

51 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Only within the Single Market it trans-border trade seamless. So that means EU or EEA members.. The goods of any other trade entity (country / trade bloc) , even if they have a 'free trade' agreement with the EU will be liable for subject to inspection and controls at the border.

Thats simply not true.
There are still checks on inter EU goods, you dont just roll a lorry off the ferry and continue on your merry way, there are LESS checks , but to say its seemless is completely false.

 

53 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

even if they have a 'free trade' agreement with the EU will be liable for subject to inspection and controls at the border. 

Exactly.

[ditchman]

Whats this verbal garbage the EU have come out with now............

they are going to hit the UK with a Trillion Pound VAT unpaid tax bill..................christ carp like this could start a war.........

[martyn2233]

😂 found this funny https://www.indy100.com/article/leave-eu-remain-vermin-tweet-brexit-response-9039501

even after all they call us who voted leave 

[Stonepark]

17 minutes ago, ditchman said:

Whats this verbal garbage the EU have come out with now............

they are going to hit the UK with a Trillion Pound VAT unpaid tax bill..................christ carp like this could start a war.........

You missed this one.......

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1161521/brexit-news-boris-johnson-irish-border-no-deal-latest-sinn-fein-european-union

[Yellow Bear]

28 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

You missed this one.......

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1161521/brexit-news-boris-johnson-irish-border-no-deal-latest-sinn-fein-european-union

and JC and his cohorts will back them if they try

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

No one wants a hard border, that's clear. If the UK wants to trade on WTO terms then both the EU and the UK can decide not to have a border but they must apply the same rule to all other countries. It cannot happen. They can agree not to use WTO trading terms and not have a hard border by way of a trade agreement but it will restrict what type of trading arrangement the UK has with the rest of the world. 

The EU has, in line with most other markets, a protected market place. Only where they have agreements in place can they manage without a border. The same is true of the UK. The UK must set out what type of trading arrangement it wants to put in place with the EU, to avoid a hard border.  If they want uninterrupted trade then they will have to sign up to trade controls.   

TBH, nobody cares, there never was a customs border with Ireland. There was a military presence but that was to stop the terrorists (unsuccessfully), nobody ever checked the trucks for smuggled goods. The majority of smugglers and terrorists used the many back roads anyway. The majority of the goods going north was only farm produce anyway.

[SpringDon]

4 hours ago, Retsdon said:

<snip>

Given that the trade balance is about equal, and given  that this balance is split between a single country on the one hand and 27 on the other......

But of course for many Brexit is not about reason anymore. It's become a faith-based religion instead and logic has become irrelevant.

Totally untrue.

The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£64 billion with the EU in 2018. A surplus of £29 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£93 billion on trade in goods. The UK had a trade surplus of £44 billion with non-EU countries.

The problem is that for many, stopping brexit is not about reason anymore.

 

[Dave-G]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The public order issues in France that European media seems reluctant to cover in any detail.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14643/france-sinking-chaos?fbclid=IwAR1MTRMa3CTMvdzkp5qQFCqhpGjjYQbgRia0n-EGgGufnF0Ufz-RUwbn2Eo#.XUYSM78D1BV.facebook

Possibly some of that coming this way if we stay in the EU.

[McSpredder]

7 hours ago, Retsdon said:

It's become a faith-based religion instead and logic has become irrelevant.

How might an unbiased person decide whether that sentence describes the Leave or the Remain point of view?

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, SpringDon said:

Totally untrue.

The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£64 billion with the EU in 2018. A surplus of £29 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£93 billion on trade in goods. The UK had a trade surplus of £44 billion with non-EU countries.

The problem is that for many, stopping brexit is not about reason anymore.

 

Main points: The EU, taken as a whole is theUK's largest trading partner. In 2018, UKexports to the EU were £289 billion (46% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £345 billion (54% of all UK imports).Jul 24, 2019

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851

In my book a 46-54 percent split is pretty much 'about equal'. l mean, it's not like a 20-80 split. But we're arguing about semantics.

I can't be bothered to look up stats for the other EU members, but to put the figures above into context Germany alone exported a total 1, 317 billion euros of goods last year. So I'm sorry, but anyone thinking that we somehow have the whip hand on account of a few 10s of billions across the whole of the EU is  in Corporal Jones country.....

 

[Nuke]

20 hours ago, Rewulf said:

There are many train crossings between Norway and Sweden, and are supposedly subject to random checks ?

What Im saying is , the movement of people between the 2 borders, is an agreement that doesnt require a hard border, with checks ect.

Random checks possibly, there is not really any large immigration flow between Norway and Sweden. The only regular checks I'm aware of is between Sweden and Denmark. 

Will there not be a hard border between UK and France?

/M

[JohnfromUK]

25 minutes ago, Nuke said:

Will there not be a hard border between UK and France?

What we need are 'smart' borders.  These are;

• soft to tourist, holiday and business travel, but hard to illegal immigration etc.
• soft to normal goods, foods, (legal) medicines, manufacturing parts and materials, hard to illegal items, drugs, arms, excise duty dodging (alcohol, tobacco etc.)
• soft to normal financial transactions (business and tourist), but hard to money laundering etc

Actually ......... not much different to what should be happening now.

[Nuke]

30 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

What we need are 'smart' borders.  These are;

• soft to tourist, holiday and business travel, but hard to illegal immigration etc.
• soft to normal goods, foods, (legal) medicines, manufacturing parts and materials, hard to illegal items, drugs, arms, excise duty dodging (alcohol, tobacco etc.)
• soft to normal financial transactions (business and tourist), but hard to money laundering etc

Actually ......... not much different to what should be happening now.

I think it will be very expensive (if it's possible at all) to develop the necessary technology to have everything ready for the 31st of October and prevent the immigration camp in Calais from relocating to Dover.  

/M

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, Nuke said:

I think it will be very expensive (if it's possible at all) to develop the necessary technology to have everything ready for the 31st of October and prevent the immigration camp in Calais from relocating to Dover.  

/M

You may be right ......... but it shouldn't be so much different to what happens now.  We have always had (needed anyway) hard borders to protect from illegal activity (EU and non EU) and we should not need much change to legal trade etc, though a bit more preparation will be needed by exporters (as they do now for exports to non EU destinations).

IF people on both sides actually WANT it to work - it can work.

Does the EU want it to work?  Well I think the car and goods makers, food producers, financial traders ALL do.  I doubt the EU Commission does, and suspect some member governments don't.  The UK (well most of us) obviously do.  Car makers, food producers must pressurise the EU commission to dam well MAKE it work.

[SpringDon]

9 hours ago, Retsdon said:

<snip>

I can't be bothered to look up stats for the other EU members, but to put the figures above into context Germany alone exported a total 1, 317 billion euros of goods last year. So I'm sorry, but anyone thinking that we somehow have the whip hand on account of a few 10s of billions across the whole of the EU is  in Corporal Jones country.....

 

You seem impressively sanguine about a few 10s of billions. I suppose what I don’t really understand about the trade argument is that the eu only accounts for 46% of our trade but the overhead of membership is <insert your chosen figure here>. This overhead is on top of trade that is already running a deficit. How can that be a good thing?

[Penelope]

18 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The public order issues in France that European media seems reluctant to cover in any detail.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14643/france-sinking-chaos?fbclid=IwAR1MTRMa3CTMvdzkp5qQFCqhpGjjYQbgRia0n-EGgGufnF0Ufz-RUwbn2Eo#.XUYSM78D1BV.facebook

Blimey, or as seems the going phrase on here, 'Gordon Bennett!!!'.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

I think it will be very expensive (if it's possible at all) to develop the necessary technology to have everything ready for the 31st of October

A lot of the technology already exists, but think about it like this..
Whatever problems we experience, ports like Calais, Rotterdam ect will have exactly the same problem in reverse, do they really want their products sat in containers, waiting for clearance ?
Have the authorities in Calais not already said there wont be a problem 'nothing will change' ?
Are Brussels really going to hold the whole of Europe to ransom if they dont get what THEY want, this is the part where you need to differentiate between Europe and the EU.

 

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

and prevent the immigration camp in Calais from relocating to Dover. 

Not sure what youre getting at here, why would there be a camp in Dover ?
The ILLEGAL immigrants are free to wander around the various jungle style camps and French towns near the Channel ferry crossings, committing crimes on a daily basis, all under the noses of French authorities, which I might add, they charge us for.
They are only in the Pas de Calais region because the French police and immigration services WILL NOT DO THEIR JOBS.
Preferring to pass them onto the UK ASAP.

Once arriving at there CHOSEN destination they disappear into the ether, or claim asylum/benefits ect.
So please explain to me why they would want a camp in Dover?