BREXIT

[JohnfromUK]

The BBC is reporting this now.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics&link_location=live-reporting-story

It is sure to provoke a huge 'row'.

(Mods, Please remove if the topic of  'Brexit' is now 'banned', but I hope that this can be a civilised non personal thread on an important topic)

[Mice!]

there talking about to on Jeremy Vine.

[Teal]

Thanks both, regardless of your views it is a very interesting time (substitute exciting or dangerous depending on your angle!)

We've had a chat and are going to allow this new topic, with the clear guidance from John on it.

We are going to leave the old Brexit topic closed to wipe the slate clean and give a fresh start. However if it goes the same way as the previous topic and people can't refrain from insults then this new topic will be closed and their posting rights would be restricted.

Clearly we don't want this to happen... so please don't let it!

[Mice!]

Certainly an interesting way of stopping parliament from interfering. Send them home.

 

[Eyefor]

That's the worst news I've had for weeks........******* Kronenburg is back.

[Rewulf]

Ooh look a petition to stop it all 😂

PetitionDo not prorogue Parliament

"Parliament must not be prorogued or dissolved unless and until the Article 50 period has been sufficiently extended or the UK's intention to withdraw from the EU has been cancelled"

So its not really about the stopping of prorogation, its actually about stopping Brexit. 

Then they wonder why this course was necessary? 

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, Teal said:

Thanks both, regardless of your views it is a very interesting time (substitute exciting or dangerous depending on your angle!)

We've had a chat and are going to allow this new topic, with the clear guidance from John on it.

We are going to leave the old Brexit topic closed to wipe the slate clean and give a fresh start. However if it goes the same way as the previous topic and people can't refrain from insults then this new topic will be closed and their posting rights would be restricted.

Clearly we don't want this to happen... so please don't let it!

Then why didn,t you suspend the person who caused it this time? I,m puzzled,  I was suspended for far less !

The news of Boris’s planned prorogation has naturally sent Remainers into hysterics, calling the move “undemocratic“, “outrageous” and comparing the PM to a “tin pot dictator” – all for using a bog-standard procedural technique. It’s set to be an entertaining day…

As Guido has reported before, prorogation has historically been used by Attlee, Major and Canadian PM Stephen Harper for political purposes. The move is even less surprising when taking into account the UK is currently enjoying the longest Parliamentary session ever since 1653, so a Queen’s Speech is long overdue.

Whilst everyone else is losing their heads, Guido thought it would be helpful to remind everyone that John Major’s prorogation – which he used to cover up the cash for questions scandal – lasted from the March 21 until the 1997 General Election: a period of 6 weeks, compare this to today’s announced prorogation that will result in Parliament losing only 4 sitting days. One rule for remainers, another for Boris. 

[KB1]

1 hour ago, Teal said:

Thanks both, regardless of your views it is a very interesting time (substitute exciting or dangerous depending on your angle!)

We've had a chat and are going to allow this new topic, with the clear guidance from John on it.

We are going to leave the old Brexit topic closed to wipe the slate clean and give a fresh start. However if it goes the same way as the previous topic and people can't refrain from insults then this new topic will be closed and their posting rights would be restricted.

Clearly we don't want this to happen... so please don't let it!

It's a shame you've closed the BREXIT thread, as it did make for some interesting reading on a daily basis😢  If 'Gammon face' and 'Trollboy' were considered borderline insults, are we not in danger of becoming too PC?  Just my opinion, but the regular polemicists usually make up a day or so later………..  

In all seriousness, the content in that thread has been incredibly illuminating 👍

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

until the Article 50 period has been sufficiently extended

Sufficiently extended for what?

Parliament has been involved in this all along;

• Parliament agreed to have a referendum
• Parliament agreed the question to be asked
• Parliament passed the Article 50 bill which included the original deadline (March 2019) and leaving with no deal if no deal was in place by that date
• There was a general election - in which BOTH main parties (Labour and Tory) agreed to carry out the referendum result (in their manifestos) - Labour and Tory won a large majority of the seats between them on manifestos promising to leave.  ALL (except I think Onasanya's replacement actually) Labour and Tory MPs in Parliament now stood on that manifesto - PROMISING to carry out the referendum result.
• We failed to leave on 31st March with an extension to 31st October
• There were European Elections - in which the clear feelings of discontent with not having already left were made very clear (to both main parties)

There is NOTHING to be gained by a further extension.  Parliament has had over 3 years to get this through ......... and achieved nothing other than confusion and delay.  Brexit hasn't happened yet - mainly because Parliament have been completely incompetent, our negotiators have been weak, and their position has been continuously undermined by Parliament taking swipes like removing no deal - which is a vital part of the negotiation position.

On this basis - I believe the Prime Minister has done the right thing in taking the best measures he can to fulfil the referendum result and the manifesto promise - and carry through Article 50 AS PASSED BY PARLIAMENT already.

[hedge]

What Parliament don't seem to want to do is actually deliver the result of the Referendum.

The petition mentioned above gives 2 options - extend A50 or withdraw from Brexit. WHY? 

I totally agree with John's comments above. Time to get this over the line.

 

[RockySpears]

Pretty much JFUK's comment.

Still looking for any Brexit 3 years later.   If prorogation is needed, so be it.

I think Remainers are going to get a rough ride if they actually achieve their aim,

 

RS

Edited August 28, 2019 by RockySpears

[henry d]

Is it possible to get a suspension of direct copy and pastes and get back to plain old links and a reasoned argument to support it, its just lazy regurgitation?

[Teal]

29 minutes ago, KB1 said:

If 'Gammon face' and 'Trollboy' were considered borderline insults, are we not in danger of becoming too PC?  Just my opinion, but the regular polemicists usually make up a day or so later………..  

In all seriousness, the content in that thread has been incredibly illuminating 👍

The point is that there has been far worse on the topic. It has been removed from view. Speaking from a lot of experience on the Brexit topic, it always follows a familiar pattern, when insults start to be thrown, and it escalates. If we turn a blind eye, then others see it as being acceptable, and the insults get worse. It no longer becomes an interesting place of commentary, but slides into unpleasantness.

It is pretty simple, we have a no insults policy. Then we don't have to decide on where exactly the line is crossed. I'd like to think people can respect that, at the umpteenth time of asking!

Anyway clean slate, back to Brexit. Let's see what happens.

[islandgun]

As Skully correctly pointed out a while ago, to be democratic we MUST leave and then if the people wish to re-join at a later date,  campaign for another vote..at least that is my understanding of his comment, and also my view

Edited August 28, 2019 by islandgun

[JohnfromUK]

Bercow is expressing "outrage". 

Well - in my view, it has been Bercow's clear bias and his stated aims of preventing 'no deal' that has probably lead to the timing of this action, which whilst not an everyday occurrence, is usually done annually to close a Parliamentary session - followed by a new 'State Opening" in which the Governments business programme is set out.  The present Parliament has been in session for longer than usual, and so it is not an untypical measure.  A new Parliament should really have a new speaker - since the present incumbent has shown himself to have his own (biassed) agenda - and NOT be the unbiased chairman needed.

Those currently expressing 'outrage' include those who were planning to replace the Leader of the largest party by "another" as Prime Minister (possibly Ken Clarke, or Harriet Harman) - a tactic in my view much less 'democratic' and far more 'outrageous' than closing the old Parliamentary session and starting a new one.

I read that owing to the practice of shutting over the party conference season anyway, the Prime Ministers move will only loose 4 or 5 days of 'sitting time' anyway.

Edited August 28, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[Dave at kelton]

Yes interesting that all those who claim a lack of democracy are those same MPs who are denying the democratic process that requires we leave the EU. I would add that I voted to remain but if given another vote, heaven forbid, I would vote out without a deal!

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Dave at kelton said:

I would add that I voted to remain but if given another vote, heaven forbid, I would vote out without a deal!

I am also in exactly that position (though I would prefer a 'decent deal').

[Raja Clavata]

A part of me hopes that Liz tells BoJo to do one but the reality appears to be that the only way out of this mess is through one undemocratic means or the other - if the means serves your agenda then it might still be prudent to acknowledge what an absolute shambles and mockery it makes of our once great union. It's going to be very difficult to ever regain our international standing after this debacle.

[panoma1]

40 minutes ago, Teal said:

The point is that there has been far worse on the topic. It has been removed from view. Speaking from a lot of experience on the Brexit topic, it always follows a familiar pattern, when insults start to be thrown, and it escalates. If we turn a blind eye, then others see it as being acceptable, and the insults get worse. It no longer becomes an interesting place of commentary, but slides into unpleasantness.

It is pretty simple, we have a no insults policy. Then we don't have to decide on where exactly the line is crossed. I'd like to think people can respect that, at the umpteenth time of asking!

Anyway clean slate, back to Brexit. Let's see what happens.

But Teal, should it not be the individuals who are sanctioned rather than closing the whole topic for everyone? I messaged Zapp who closed the thread commenting to this effect! I understand that personal insults are, quite rightly not allowed, but this topic has has given the chance for PW members to air their views on a very important issue.........nearly a quarter of a million views showing people's interest......

It disturbs me that any member wishing to stifle any debate, can potentially get any topic closed, by just insulting another member! Rather than face the consequences of their own actions!

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It's going to be very difficult to ever regain our international standing after this debacle.

I don't agree at all.  If we had a referendum ........ and our leaders totally fail to carry out it's result - that would be true, but if we now get on and clearly leave we will be seen to be standing up for ourselves and siezing back the control that was promised.

[Raja Clavata]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't agree at all.  If we had a referendum ........ and our leaders totally fail to carry out it's result - that would be true, but if we now get on and clearly leave we will be seen to be standing up for ourselves and siezing back the control that was promised.

That's not the message from senior business leaders I have interacted with in Europe and North America - but I guess it's all about perspective.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That's not the message from senior business leaders I have interacted with in Europe and North America - but I guess it's all about perspective.

Of course there are views on both sides, and there are a number of senior business people who would see failure to enact the referendum result in a very poor light.  The key here is that whether you wish to remain or leave (and I originally voted for remain), once the result is in - you cannot pretend it didn't happen the moment things don't go well - you have to get down and follow through; it's about trust.

A major lesson that should be learned is that ANY government making promises needs to be prepared to deliver on those promises - even if the going is tough.

You don't (or at least shouldn't) gain respect by simply following the path of lowest resistance.  That is where I believe Teresa May fell down badly in her negotiations - and managed to satisfy no one.

[Mice!]

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

totally fail to carry out it's result - that would be true, but if we now get on and clearly leave we will be seen to be standing up for ourselves and siezing back the control that was promised

That's my thoughts, we are leaving on our terms, that to me says we are in a strong position.

A deal may have been better, but not when it's basically the same as before.

I hope this gets us out and then we can start fresh and move on from the brexit shambles.

[Zapp]

4 hours ago, panoma1 said:

It disturbs me that any member wishing to stifle any debate, can potentially get any topic closed, by just insulting another member! Rather than face the consequences of their own actions!

As Teal has already stated, jndividuals will be held to account from this point forward.  We tried very hard to get posters to interact  respectfully but the antics on the closed thread drove away all but a handful of commenters.

That thread is now closed to draw a line under it and to once again emphasise that insulting other members will not be tolerated, and that from here on this will mean direct sanction.  We have done this in the hope that others who may have been put off joining the debate will now be more inclined to do so on this important matter.

[SpringDon]

1 hour ago, KB1 said:

It's a shame you've closed the BREXIT thread, as it did make for some interesting reading on a daily basis😢  If 'Gammon face' and 'Trollboy' were considered borderline insults, are we not in danger of becoming too PC?  Just my opinion, but the regular polemicists usually make up a day or so later………..  

In all seriousness, the content in that thread has been incredibly illuminating 👍

Oooo, he said jehovah (nearly).