BREXIT

[Vince Green]

9 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

That's not actually true. Britain had lots of leverage. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2019/631739/EPRS_BRI(2019)631739_EN.pdf 

It was Cockfield, a British EU commissioner, who tabled the white paper that led to the birth of the EU's Single Market. The Single Market that's the now the stumbling block for Brexit was introduced by a Brit and enthusiastically endorsed by Thatcher as a counterpoint to what she saw as Delors' centralized 'socialist' endorsement of common European workers rights. Mrs T won that battle. Cameron got an opt out clause from any kind of 'ever closer union'. And so on and so on. When the British were in the game they had lots of influence.  

 

That was then, this is now. The EU definitely started out with very noble aspirations and I was a very enthusiastic believer. However, it never came good, too many people and too many countries were only interested in self interest and lining their own pockets.

Others wanted to build a European Superstate without a real understanding of how to do it. Instead they have created a bureaucratic madhouse that cannot now restructure itself even if there was a will to do so. I for one simply don't believe there is the will to do so.

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

That was then, this is now. The EU definitely started out with very noble aspirations and I was a very enthusiastic believer. However, it never came good, too many people and too many countries were only interested in self interest and lining their own pockets.

Others wanted to build a European Superstate without a real understanding of how to do it. Instead they have created a bureaucratic madhouse that cannot now restructure itself even if there was a will to do so. I for one simply don't believe there is the will to do so.

It will take the leaders under pressure maybe to agree a review of the structure and operation of the EU. Run externaly under the management of an external executive an action plan for reform could be enacted. 

Its the way that many large organisations do it. It starts with one champion talking to another. No reason why net contributors could not agree it as a course of action. Hard for any organisation to resist. 

[Retsdon]

Just now, Vince Green said:

I for one simply don't believe there is the will to do so.

You're correct. But it's not wholly a malevolent thing.

I think one of the things we forget is that people don't spring from a vacuum, and that we're all - to a large extent - prisoners of our history. One Dutch commentator on another thread I sometimes frequent remarked that the problem with Britain is that it's never seen proper suffering. Her thesis was that on mainland Europe during and following WWs 1& 2,  people's parents and grandparents were reduced to 'eating grass'. And when you look back at history and think that nearly every mainland European country (other than the Scandinavian ones) has for millennia been a regular battlefield, fought over and carved up again and again by competing Empires, you can understand why the average European has far more affection for the stabilizing and basically benign club of nations that's the EU. Sure, they have to forgo a little bit of national sovereignty, but compared to what's been for the large majority, the historical alternatives, that's most certainly a price they consider worth paying.

Of course, Britain, which has never seen foreign troops marching on her soil since 1066 and whose most recent historical memory is of owning half the globe, has a totally different take on the value of trading sovereignty for safety and stability. It would be better if somehow everyone could meet in the middle.

[Vince Green]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

It will take the leaders under pressure maybe to agree a review of the structure and operation of the EU. Run externaly under the management of an external executive an action plan for reform could be enacted. 

Its the way that many large organisations do it. It starts with one champion talking to another. No reason why net contributors could not agree it as a course of action. Hard for any organisation to resist. 

Do you really believe that is even a remote possibility? is there any will to change while the money (our money!) keeps flowing? Maybe Brexit will force them to reform, who knows? but I can only repeat my belief that the EU has failed to deliver the strong positive leadership and has degenerated into self interest   

[Scully]

35 minutes ago, oowee said:

I would not argue with much of what you say but its a needless pain to go through. The short time is likely to be for several life times whilst we continue to trade many points below where we would otherwise have been. 

At a time when the competition for resources and managing the decline of the planet is getting ever critical we choose to opt to abandon the strength that is the EU. It does not make sense that a great nation like ours cannot bend the will of the EU but thinks it can cut a dash in the big pond.

We will get through it because soon we will realise that the regulatory framework arrangements that are the EU are where we have to be. 

I'm afraid if there is any pain then it's necessary in order to get away from the increasingly undemocratic rule of the EU. If we could change it from within then I'd be ok with staying, but we can't, so we have to leave. 

I't sonly my opinion but I doubt the short time will last for anyones lifetime, but the consequences of staying may. 

As an aside, we can no more manage the so called decline of the planet ( whatever that means ) than we can fly to the sun. 

Like I've said, I have no problem with trading with the EU, just being ruled by it. 

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

Nah! Not yet! Explain where and why you claim my fish analogy is wrong.........Either put up or shut up! Lol!

You started unravelling it yourself in a previous post but kept digging, I presume you were extending the volume of your pond sufficiently in order to allow the introduction of a second fish in order to establish whether or not you are indeed a big fish or little fish. In which case I hope you made adequate provision for the additional demand on the food supply.🤪

[Vince Green]

28 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

You're correct. But it's not wholly a malevolent thing.

I think one of the things we forget is that people don't spring from a vacuum, and that we're all - to a large extent - prisoners of our history. One Dutch commentator on another thread I sometimes frequent remarked that the problem with Britain is that it's never seen proper suffering. Her thesis was that on mainland Europe during and following WWs 1& 2,  people's parents and grandparents were reduced to 'eating grass'. And when you look back at history and think that nearly every mainland European country (other than the Scandinavian ones) has for millennia been a regular battlefield, fought over and carved up again and again by competing Empires, you can understand why the average European has far more affection for the stabilizing and basically benign club of nations that's the EU. Sure, they have to forgo a little bit of national sovereignty, but compared to what's been for the large majority, the historical alternatives, that's most certainly a price they consider worth paying.

Of course, Britain, which has never seen foreign troops marching on her soil since 1066 and whose most recent historical memory is of owning half the globe, has a totally different take on the value of trading sovereignty for safety and stability. It would be better if somehow everyone could meet in the middle.

I can see that point of view but let me put another slant on the Holland eating grass story. Its that during the war the Dutch were starved nearly to death ( and in many cases literally to death because Germany deliberately and in full understanding of what it was doing cut off all food supplies and they did it intentionally to bring them to submission. And it worked

Not quite the same picture is it? In many ways Germany has been employing similar tactics against Greece, Italy and Spain more recently. Do leopards ever change their spots?

Germany has never reacted with anything but aggression towards failing member states when they get into difficulties . That to me is a big red flag

The difference between you and me is that I don't see the EU as a benign club

Edited September 22, 2019 by Vince Green

[Mice!]

22 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

One Dutch commentator on another thread I sometimes frequent remarked that the problem with Britain is that it's never seen proper suffering. Her thesis was that on mainland Europe during and following WWs 1& 2,  people's parents and grandparents were reduced to 'eating grass'. And when you look back at history and think that nearly every mainland European country (other than the Scandinavian ones) has for millennia been a regular battlefield, fought over and carved up again and again by competing Empires, you can understand

I can understand that thinking, and it's another reason why I feel we need to get out now. We are an island who rules herself, from Napoleon to WW2 others have tried to rule all of Europe. Then they have been brought to heel by us and our allies.

We haven't been defeated since 1066 so now they the EU are trying to absorb us rather than defeat us, imagine if we had lost the pound and were using the Euro.

[Retsdon]

6 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Germany has never reacted with anything but aggression towards failing member states when they get into difficulties . That to me is a big red flag

I wouldn't argue with you at all on that point. And the worst part is that those difficulties were brought about by Germany's deliberate running of a destabilizing economic surplus - as explained in this excellent article from 2015 by the economist Michael Pettis. https://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/58983 

[panoma1]

31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You started unravelling it yourself in a previous post but kept digging, I presume you were extending the volume of your pond sufficiently in order to allow the introduction of a second fish in order to establish whether or not you are indeed a big fish or little fish. In which case I hope you made adequate provision for the additional demand on the food supply.🤪

Is that your explanation/ answer? I fail to see its relevance?.......My analogy was solely to do with where the UK will be in relation to the EU when we leave.

Edited September 22, 2019 by panoma1

[Vince Green]

34 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I wouldn't argue with you at all on that point. And the worst part is that those difficulties were brought about by Germany's deliberate running of a destabilizing economic surplus - as explained in this excellent article from 2015 by the economist Michael Pettis. https://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/58983 

Its not just Germany that runs a destabilising economic surplus as far as we are concerned. Spain manages to flood us with agricultural produce like lettuce, tomatoes and cucumber in huge amounts . OK its not earth shattering but they are dumping it on us because they can't sell it on their home market and they grow it purely for the EU subsidy. Its completely killed off the little producers in Cornwall who used to provide our salad stuff. 

However, you can call me a Little Englander but I still don't entirely trust Germany's motives. To me they still have the arrogance of self belief in their own infallablity. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by Vince Green

[Dave-G]

10 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

OK its not earth shattering but they are dumping it on us because they can't sell it on their home market and they grow it purely for the EU subsidy. Its completely killed off the little producers in Cornwall who used to provide our salad stuff. 

That's probably why Brussels thinks its worth the subsidy.... that we contribute to of course.

[Vince Green]

Just now, Dave-G said:

That's probably why Brussels thinks its worth the subsidy.... that we contribute to of course.

The agricultural subsidy was originally introduced because the French farmers feared unfair competion from German farmers. Since then it has become a huge source of fraud across many countries. Claiming subsidies on barren hillsides that couldn't even grow weeds. Planting crops they never harvest etc. 

[Raja Clavata]

39 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Is that your explanation/ answer? I fail to see its relevance?.......My analogy was solely to do with where the UK will be in relation to the EU when we leave.

No, I explained earlier. 

[Cosmicblue]

BREXIT has been Cancelled. 

Due to confusion, boredom and apathy - looking at the BBC web site today there is nary a mention.  I wonder what the next 'big thing' will be? 

[panoma1]

16 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

No, I explained earlier. 

I’ve lost patience with your evasive riddles and prevarications.......you know full well what my analogy was describing you obviously can’t give a straight answer, 

Edited September 22, 2019 by panoma1

[SpringDon]

4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

You lost me with “imports are only 25% of gdp” - I give up and conclude we are indeed discussing alternative realities.

GDP is a lot more like revenue than turnover, but never mind.

Not sure what’s “alternative” about suggesting that £500bln was a quarter of £2trln, but it’s a long time since I went to school.

There are a number of arguments against brexit; you don’t need to just invent things.

But as you say, never mind. 

3 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Not really. We'll be out of any kind of pond at all and into the wide, wide, ocean. 

By “wide, wide ocean”,  I take it you mean world.

And by “pond”, I take it you mean isolationist bloc.

[Raja Clavata]

30 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I’ve lost patience with your evasive riddles and prevarications.......you know full well what my analogy was describing you obviously can’t give a straight answer, 

Your original analogy was completely butt about face. At one point I thought you were actually trying to extract urine, so all very well and good if you lost patience with me. I was not being evasive at all; let your accusing me of lying be the last insult you direct at me today. You really excelled yourself here.

16 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

Not sure what’s “alternative” about suggesting that £500bln was a quarter of £2trln, but it’s a long time since I went to school.

There are a number of arguments against brexit; you don’t need to just invent things.

But as you say, never mind. 

Okay so I now take it you meant the value of imports is 25% of the value of our GDP but where do you get the £500Bn from? Also, how is it relevant?

[Gordon R]

Some like to dish it out, but cry foul the moment there is any incoming.  No change - no change.🤣

[oowee]

Good morning Gordon. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 hours ago, Cosmicblue said:

BREXIT has been Cancelled. 

Due to confusion, boredom and apathy - looking at the BBC web site today there is nary a mention.  I wonder what the next 'big thing' will be? 

Thomas BLOODY Cook, the BBC are falling over themselves to publicise the collapse.

Edited September 23, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Yellow Bear]

16 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

the BBC are falling over themselves to publicise the collapse.

And blame it on Brexit  -  now that is a surprise from the good old impartial BBC (NOT)

[panoma1]

10 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Your original analogy was completely butt about face. At one point I thought you were actually trying to extract urine, so all very well and good if you lost patience with me. I was not being evasive at all; let your accusing me of lying be the last insult you direct at me today. You really excelled yourself here.

 

Look up the dictionary definition of the word prevarication, as well as lying it means skirting around or being vague about the truth! I believe you have deliberately misinterpreted my posting In order to score points and shore up you own remainer position....that is prevarication!

 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Thomas BLOODY Cook, the BBC are falling over themselves to publicise the collapse.

Yep just because it effects thousands of people going on holiday or already there, no need to make a song and a dance about it. 🙄

[TIGHTCHOKE]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yep just because it effects thousands of people going on holiday or already there, no need to make a song and a dance about it. 🙄

At least they have gone quiet about the "B" subject!