Lead ban & BASC

[oowee]

15 hours ago, lancer425 said:

AFAIK We are not quite a fortnight into this voluntary advice thats from first hints rumours  of it coming to right now.  I do not think we have exactly given the industry time to metaphorically scratch their heads on this subject yet. never mind give it a thick coat of looking at. Where we are right now tonight is just not a problem. 

New wads will become available and at more realistic prices. We just need to be patient and stop panicking.

 

9 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

One or more of the cartridge manufacturers will grasp the oportunity to provide suitable cartridges for 12 gauge users and then if the requirement is there the smaller bores will follow on.

All of this ^^^^^^^

[rbrowning2]

Comments observation from John at Folkestone Engineering Supplies who supplies a lot of home loading components.

The use of steel shoot is nothing new, however restricting it to being used only within biodegradable wads adds challenges to implementing it effectively within all guns in use today. As our customers know to date we have not stocked non toxic components.

As has been said on the forum, the only biodegradable wad available to home loaders at this time is the cardboard cup wads available from Clay and Game Reloading.

We did buy samples of the water soluble wads in March 2016 the cost of them was considerably more than the price of fibre wads and non biodegradable plastic wads and hence concluded they were not viable at that time. These wads were and I believe still are only manufactured in 12gauge. We know of no testing that has been completed with them using tungsten based shot.
We still have remaining a few samples if anybody visiting us would like to view them.

Both B&P and Gualandi currently list no biodegradable wads. 

Should it become commercially viable and hopefully with the support of the suppliers we would stock the water soluble wads or alternative manufactures products when or if they become available together with steel shot.

We will also look at alternative shot types like Bismuth and solid Copper shot but they are far more expensive than steel shot and this we believe will considerably limit their appeal.

No need to panic we are on a five year journey and we will continue to offer lead shot whilst it is legal to do so and thank customers for their support.

Best wishes, John.

Mods if this is inappropriate to post please delete

RB.

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Comments observation from John at Folkestone Engineering Supplies who supplies a lot of home loading components.

The use of steel shoot is nothing new, however restricting it to being used only within biodegradable wads adds challenges to implementing it effectively within all guns in use today. As our customers know to date we have not stocked non toxic components.

As has been said on the forum, the only biodegradable wad available to home loaders at this time is the cardboard cup wads available from Clay and Game Reloading.

We did buy samples of the water soluble wads in March 2016 the cost of them was considerably more than the price of fibre wads and non biodegradable plastic wads and hence concluded they were not viable at that time. These wads were and I believe still are only manufactured in 12gauge. We know of no testing that has been completed with them using tungsten based shot.
We still have remaining a few samples if anybody visiting us would like to view them.

Both B&P and Gualandi currently list no biodegradable wads. 

Should it become commercially viable and hopefully with the support of the suppliers we would stock the water soluble wads or alternative manufactures products when or if they become available together with steel shot.

We will also look at alternative shot types like Bismuth and solid Copper shot but they are far more expensive than steel shot and this we believe will considerably limit their appeal.

No need to panic we are on a five year journey and we will continue to offer lead shot whilst it is legal to do so and thank customers for their support.

Best wishes, John.

Mods if this is inappropriate to post please delete

RB.

We have approx 1800 days before we need to get exited, if they sit on their hands until then, we still have card cups for steel and toungsten.  plus non abrasive shot like copper and Bismuth, and probably another shot even two i forgot about. was it nice. or something.

Edited February 27, 2020 by lancer425

[Smokersmith]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Mods if this is inappropriate to post please delete

Looks like your best post on the topic so far.

[andrewluke]

have steel cartridges improved that much and lead got more toxic  in the last 5 yrs or so since the John Swift and LAG saga

[A-Series]

I wonder what the alternative would be for practical shotgun? Can't use steel shot for obvious reasons, and other shot is far too expensive when shooting 150+  in a competition!

[Scully]

10 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

Steel shot doesn't have enough mass to be effected by the pull of an MRI magnet. It's ridiculous to suggest it will come shooting out of you. and all that other ****. 

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/mri-scan/who-can-have-it/

The danger with metal implants etc is not that it is going to come shooting out, it can heat up and cause damage to soft tissue which is why in most cases it is fine to have an MRI if you have had screws in bones etc but you must inform the doctor so they can risk assess it. 

They may X-Ray you first to see if there is genuine concern. 

As with most things you ingest though, what goes in, must come out. Ironically through the same oriface some people on this thread are talking out of. 

😂

[Scully]

9 hours ago, wymberley said:

None of this is going to affect me, but has anyone wondered where we're going to go with it?. At the moment there is no obligation for anybody to do anything. So, as of now there is probably  a minimum five year life for lead. Let's assume that the government is far too busy with other aspects of our daily lives and has no input in this matter - understandably so just at the moment. So, when the five years is up, what happens then? Do the organisations extend their scheme? Or does the government step in having sorted out (fat chance!) all of the brexit challenges and decides to replace the voluntary moritorium with an outright ban. Because what we have is voluntary, then there is going to have to be a reasonable timescale for the loaders who quite legally have just taken delivery of 100 tons of lead to turn that into shot, for it to be loaded, the cartridges made, sold and used. You get my point which is nothing more really than just pointing out that contrary to some opinions can not and will not happen overnight. I would guess that this would add another 5 years on to the existing 5 voluntary ones. Unless, of course, the government is prepared to pay out compensation at a level which matches the cost of 50 miles of HS2 track.

The worst and most disruptive aspect of this whole situation is doubt. Consequently, my view would be that the organisations move as quickly as the goverment will permit  and arrange between them to produce a sensible - but adjustable where it becomes necessary - timescale to pass the necessary legislation. The organisations have put us in this potentially intolerable situation so it's up to them to remove all damaging doubt and get us out of it.

I would think that game dealers will dictate what we use to shoot live quarry. If shoots which want to sell their shot birds to dealers, are told by those dealers that they will not buy them if they're shot with lead, then those shoots will either cut back on the amount of birds they shoot ( unlikely ) or they will emphasise a 'steel shot only' criteria to those guns wanting to shoot.

What effect this will have on those willing to pay to shoot driven birds, time will tell, but personally if I was told the only way I could shoot driven was if I shot with steel, then steel it would be. 

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

We have approx 1800 days before we need to get exited, if they sit on their hands until then, we still have card cups for steel and toungsten.  plus non abrasive shot like copper and Bismuth, and probably another shot even two i forgot about. was it nice. or something.

167 days to go If the object is to get game shot with non toxic into the marketplace 

If the dealers won’t take it if it’s shot with lead and join the voluntary ban 

[lancer425]

43 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

167 days to go If the object is to get game shot with non toxic into the marketplace 

If the dealers won’t take it if it’s shot with lead and join the voluntary ban 

That is achievable now with what is currently available. In five years we could well have more options.

2 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

Looks like your best post on the topic so far.

That is mean.

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, andrewluke said:

have steel cartridges improved that much and lead got more toxic  in the last 5 yrs or so since the John Swift and LAG saga

Steel has improved in that the factory ammo we get in from abroad and some of our own produced stuff, seems to be closer to the USA SAMI proofed loads than in the early days. But compared to USA factory ammo our loads though capable enough are no match for the USA market stuff.

We are signed up to CIP why we can not be like australia NZ and south africa and pick and chose between the two specs now we are out of europe i am not sure.  It is a guidance, and when eley launched the Lightening steel loads, much fuss was made of them straying from cip limits, but in fact they did just about fit bang on the limits, even then they got scared and withdrew some early lightening steel AFAIR.

Reload and you get its full potential if you actually need that full potential to get the job done is another point altogether.

[8 shot]

Any Game Dealer on here to pass comment, reading some comments in the shooting media it's the eureka moment for every commercial shoots problem. Game Dealer won't be able to fill there order books. The supermarkets, resturants and good ole Joe Public will be kicking down the doors to get there fix of game meat, or perhaps not.

[Penelope]

15 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Any Game Dealer on here to pass comment, reading some comments in the shooting media it's the eureka moment for every commercial shoots problem. Game Dealer won't be able to fill there order books. The supermarkets, resturants and good ole Joe Public will be kicking down the doors to get there fix of game meat, or perhaps not.

I spoke to Ben Rigby Gamedealers in Essex the day after the voluntary ban notice and they were still taking lead shot pigeons. How long that will continue, who knows. I guess it depends on their customers. 

[lancer425]

29 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Any Game Dealer on here to pass comment, reading some comments in the shooting media it's the eureka moment for every commercial shoots problem. Game Dealer won't be able to fill there order books. The supermarkets, resturants and good ole Joe Public will be kicking down the doors to get there fix of game meat, or perhaps not.

Did they say why game dealers wont be able to fill order books. ?

[southeastpete]

I don’t understand why just on live quarry. I’d have thought more shells are shot at clay grounds than at live quarry these days. And as it’s constantly in one area, would lead to more concentrated toxicity surely?

Also, yea plastic is bad to be littering about the countryside. And if lead is really that much of an issue (I don’t see it personally) the  phasing it out would be what should happen. But if I ran the biggest national shooting organisation, I’d try and encourage and find research into suitable alternatives, and when they are as good release them and then propose the phase out. No point volunteering a ‘ban’. It just gets people’s backs up (as can be seen on this thread). 

Its like positive reinforcement vs negative reinforcement (let’s not get into a smacking children discussion)

instead of being authoritarian and negative with a ban, they could be positive and forward looking by saying we are campaigning for and funding research into future replacements, we hope to have an equivalent performance alternative within 5 years. And hopefully by then we’ll be firing super compressed cow poo invented by Greta and saving the world:

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, southeastpete said:

I don’t understand why just on live quarry. I’d have thought more shells are shot at clay grounds than at live quarry these days. And as it’s constantly in one area, would lead to more concentrated toxicity surely?

Also, yea plastic is bad to be littering about the countryside. And if lead is really that much of an issue (I don’t see it personally) the  phasing it out would be what should happen. But if I ran the biggest national shooting organisation, I’d try and encourage and find research into suitable alternatives, and when they are as good release them and then propose the phase out. No point volunteering a ‘ban’. It just gets people’s backs up (as can be seen on this thread). 

Its like positive reinforcement vs negative reinforcement (let’s not get into a smacking children discussion)

instead of being authoritarian and negative with a ban, they could be positive and forward looking by saying we are campaigning for and funding research into future replacements, we hope to have an equivalent performance alternative within 5 years. And hopefully by then we’ll be firing super compressed cow poo invented by Greta and saving the world:

The idea being that the clay grounds are a controled environment where lead shot can be reclaimed and re used, i have reloaded lead shot reclaimed from clay grounds its ok. Lead in live quarry means any destined for food will not contain lead erc.

[southeastpete]

10 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

The idea being that the clay grounds are a controled environment where lead shot can be reclaimed and re used, i have reloaded lead shot reclaimed from clay grounds its ok. Lead in live quarry means any destined for food will not contain lead erc.

Are there any cases whatsoever of people having lead related medical issues due to eating game?

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, southeastpete said:

Are there any cases whatsoever of people having lead related medical issues due to eating game?

I simply do not know , Sorry.

[figgy]

I can see some feathered pate in future when folk start using large steel shot, tight pattern and wasted birds.

About time they alloyed steel with tungsten powder to get the cc weight up and keep prices sensible.

[Smokersmith]

Both good points.

[timps]

Well the cartridge manufacturers have responded 

https://gamebore.com/uk/news/news/joint-statement-uk-cartridge-manufacturers

[Smokersmith]

Fairly clear message … shafted!

The point they raise related to CIP is really important, as the performance of steel in smaller shot sizes is boosted by a bit more speed.

As we've said earlier … carry on using lead, and let's support the development as they come out in the future (not expecting anything to use next season other than my own prototypes!!).

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, timps said:

Well the cartridge manufacturers have responded 

https://gamebore.com/uk/news/news/joint-statement-uk-cartridge-manufacturers

An interesting response.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well what a surprise, the manufacturers were not aware of the announcement either!

 

This really could have been handled far better by BASC and the co signatories.

[rbrowning2]

Wow!

Just seen previous post looks like the orgs are well out of step with the cartridge manufactures 

Edited February 28, 2020 by rbrowning2
Removed as duplicated