Demonstrations in london

[Mice!]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Tracked and traced and all sorts of other clever things - like?

I believe what I outlined would have diffused the situation rather than feed it based on the very concerns you have cited.

Your saying you don't know mobile phones can be tracked? So if your mobile was there, you were there, its somewhere to start.

[Raja Clavata]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

Your saying you don't know mobile phones can be tracked? So if your mobile was there, you were there, its somewhere to start.

I’m not saying that at all. I know how the tracking works and I also know the difference between circumstantial and nailed on evidence. 

So, you think cctv and phone tracking is a better deterrent than a statutory five year stretch if caught red handed?

[Gordon R]

Whether it is CCTV, phone tracking or getting stuck in and arresting them in the act - something needs to happen. Listening to the demands of halfwits solves nothing.

[Raja Clavata]

I don’t see it as pandering to half wits or snowflakes or whatever else we choose to dismiss them as.

Its about demonstrating leadership, pulling the rug out from under their feet and showing them if they continue to transgress they’ll get taken to the cleaners.

If they are half wits it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of our exemplary government to out wit the half wits. Except...

[Mice!]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I’m not saying that at all. I know how the tracking works and I also know the difference between circumstantial and nailed on evidence. 

So, you think cctv and phone tracking is a better deterrent than a statutory five year stretch if caught red handed?

Not at all, I'd like to see the rioters stopped completely and not pandered to.

But if there is a fairly clear image and your phone was there while you were "terrorising " the town/police/monuments  then prove it wasn't you.

If these muppets are known to be planning more trouble this weekend then trained or not put the Army out along with the police, tell them if you cause trouble then the forces will detain you and you will be charged. 

No I have to go to sleep,  I have microns to chase tomorrow 👍

[Raja Clavata]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

Not at all, I'd like to see the rioters stopped completely and not pandered to.

But if there is a fairly clear image and your phone was there while you were "terrorising " the town/police/monuments  then prove it wasn't you.

If these muppets are known to be planning more trouble this weekend then trained or not put the Army out along with the police, tell them if you cause trouble then the forces will detain you and you will be charged. 

No I have to go to sleep,  I have microns to chase tomorrow 👍

Thanks but I’ll take nipping it in the bud over deploying the army on the streets. That doesn’t usually end well and I have to say sounds very Trump like.

[johnphilip]

56 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But you’re asking questions that would not arise if you’d read and / or understood what I posted. 

No offence but you’ve been calling people out for not understanding but I kinda feel you need to sort your own house out too.

 

And yet you still dont reply to my two questions  .   you made replies to me so i asked  you on two things you said . 

Edited June 10, 2020 by johnphilip

[Nuke]

5 hours ago, johnphilip said:

And yet you still dont reply to my two questions  .   you made replies to me so i asked  you on two things you said . 

And the winner is?

[JohnfromUK]

It looks like (once again) the legal system will fail and no one be prosecuted for pulling down the Colston statue ......... because apparently you have to 'prove ownership' before a prosecution can be brought.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8408223/Black-Lives-Matter-protesters-tore-Edward-Colston-statue-likely-escape-prosecution.html

[Mice!]

9 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Thanks but I’ll take nipping it in the bud over deploying the army on the streets. That doesn’t usually end well and I have to say sounds very Trump like.

And how do you nip it in the bud? It's not like they are just going to get told stay home and then will? Hope it rains hard all weekend in London,  that should help

[old'un]

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I would have been fine with her backing up what I suggested with a statement that anyone caught defacing the monuments in the meantime would get a statutory five year stretch.

Think through what you suggested, pre COVID CCTV was a deterrent, how many people get nailed based on cctv footage alone. Post COVID with face masks, even fewer. As in none probably.

I like the idea but how do you identify these people and secondly how do you extract them from a crowd of protesters just looking for the slightest reason to kick off.

[Bigbob]

Wont they just have to wait a fortnight  and see if there's a upsurge of the virus there ?. Then you where among the rioters ?.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

And how do you nip it in the bud? It's not like they are just going to get told stay home and then will? Hope it rains hard all weekend in London,  that should help

You engage the leaders / organisers, you tell them you'll sit down and listen to their "demands" but they need to get "their" people off the streets. Anyone out demonstrating afterwards is more or less fair game and it weeds out the people who are not standing for the cause but instead just out for trouble (the rent a mobs).

This is the same approach as I suggested in the handling of the ER mob but apparently the govt were too busy dealing with Brexit. I can guess the excuse this time too...

7 minutes ago, old'un said:

I like the idea but how do you identify these people and secondly how do you extract them from a crowd of protesters just looking for the slightest reason to kick off.

Does what I've outlined above clarify?

[oowee]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

It looks like (once again) the legal system will fail and no one be prosecuted for pulling down the Colston statue ......... because apparently you have to 'prove ownership' before a prosecution can be brought.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8408223/Black-Lives-Matter-protesters-tore-Edward-Colston-statue-likely-escape-prosecution.html

Interesting stuff. I was involved in several pieces of large scale public art in Milton Keynes. Some of the pices are worth several hundreds thousands and ownership was a huge problem when assets were transferred to the Local Authority from the Development Corporation.  There were also a number of demo (model bronze pre purchase) pieces floating about in the office. I often wonder where these ended up. 

 

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You engage the leaders / organisers, you tell them you'll sit down and listen to their "demands" but they need to get "their" people off the streets. Anyone out demonstrating afterwards is more or less fair game and it weeds out the people who are not standing for the cause but instead just out for trouble (the rent a mobs).

This is the same approach as I suggested in the handling of the ER mob but apparently the govt were too busy dealing with Brexit. I can guess the excuse this time too...

 

Surely you don't mean demonstrate leadeership, get a grip and manage the situation? Pretty Patel would needs to step forward 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You engage the leaders / organisers, you tell them you'll sit down and listen to their "demands" but they need to get "their" people off the streets. Anyone out demonstrating afterwards is more or less fair game and it weeds out the people who are not standing for the cause but instead just out for trouble (the rent a mobs).

And what do you 'give' them in return for getting their supporters off the streets (even if they can)?  This is the problem.  I think we are all agreed that the violent 'rent a mob' are there for making trouble, not the BLM cause (or whatever it is this time).  I actually think even many of the non violent lot are out for 'a good day out protesting'.  I admit I enjoyed a good (and peaceful) day out on the anti hunt ban protests - good camaraderie at that sort of event.

The problem - is that they will still be getting their way by the presence of violence (even if it isn't their own members/supporters who are being violent).  The real message that needs to get across is that violence will not get you anywhere other than police cell/court/jail as appropriate.

Make a credible threat of violence - and we will have a chat and give you what you want is not the way forward.

[TRINITY]

12 hours ago, Retsdon said:

The thing is, it's not really about the statues. If statues of people with different morality were all to be taken down, Rome for a start would lose half its tourist attractions. And does anyone really believe for a moment that any normal person is offended by a 2 or 3 hundred year old piece of stone?

No, it's about the exercise of power. What these people are saying is that we know that YOU have cultural attachments to these statues, and so we're going to have a laugh and force you to grovel and to add spice, we'll use your own morality against you as our weapon.

I will had to that. What they are saying is, we have moved into your country and we dont like many things about it. We intend to change things that suit us and not you. We are still the minority but our numbers are growing. We will quickly be the majority and then this country will be ours and not yours and run totally for our benefit.

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

I often wonder where these ended up.

From a personal point of view, I hate seeing things wantonly destroyed.  The idea someone in the museum curator career path is telling people how to destroy bronzes permanently is abhorent to me.

[mudpatten]

Allegedly these demos were spontaneous and there are none who would own up to being leaders or organisers with whom to "negotiate".

The actual organisation "Black Lives Matter" has, amongst other things a policy which seeks to "de-fund" police departments. They wish to create a climate of revolution and anarchy. You cannot negotiate with such people.

We could, I suppose, take a leaf out of their book and hasten the end of civilised democracy by laying seige to Downing Street until they remove the need for medical certification before the grant of a gun licence. The underlying lesson that must not be allowed to go unchallenged is that violence towards the state gets you what you want.

Previously, we tried to negotiate with Adolph Hitler. That didn`t end well.

After a recent post I channelled my irritation into an email to my MP.

We should all do the same, at least its a start.

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by mudpatten

[Mice!]

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You engage the leaders / organisers, you tell them you'll sit down and listen to their "demands" but they need to get "their" people off the streets. Anyone out demonstrating afterwards is more or less fair game and it weeds out the people who are not standing for the cause but instead just out for trouble (the rent a mobs).

Couldn't think of anything worse, ignore the Covid rules or laws, go on a jolly with some rioting and looting then you get what you want, I'm just going to say it, get the message out it will not be tolerated,  the vast majority of the country has stayed home now for umpteen weeks waiting to be allowed out.

If you demo peacefully keeping the 2mtrs crack on, if there is a repeat of what happened last weekend then I say crush them!! Stop the trouble makers in their tracks and the rest will go home, we don't negotiate with terrorists. 

 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

And what do you 'give' them in return for getting their supporters off the streets (even if they can)?  This is the problem.  I think we are all agreed that the violent 'rent a mob' are there for making trouble, not the BLM cause (or whatever it is this time).  I actually think even many of the non violent lot are out for 'a good day out protesting'.  I admit I enjoyed a good (and peaceful) day out on the anti hunt ban protests - good camaraderie at that sort of event.

The problem - is that they will still be getting their way by the presence of violence (even if it isn't their own members/supporters who are being violent).  The real message that needs to get across is that violence will not get you anywhere other than police cell/court/jail as appropriate.

Make a credible threat of violence - and we will have a chat and give you what you want is not the way forward.

Where and when did I suggest giving them what they want, it would be a discussion and if they are not clowns / half wits you can get into a negotiation with them. One that is likely to involve a thing called compromise.

Just now, mudpatten said:

Allegedly these demos were spontaneous and there are none who would own up to being leaders or organisers with whom to "negotiate".

The actual organisation "Black Lives Matter" has, amongst other things a policy which seeks to "de-fund" police departments. They wish to create a climate of revolution and anarchy. You cannot negotiate with such people.

We could, I suppose, take a leaf out of their book and hasten the end of civilised democracy by laying seige to Downing Street until they remove the need for medical certification before the grant of a gun licence. The underlying lesson that must not be allowed to go unchallenged is that violence towards the state gets you what you want.

After a recent post I channelled my irritation into an email to my MP.

We should all do the same, at least its a start.

 

Except for the ones (coordinators) who were interviewed on the TV the other night...

[mudpatten]

"I have in my hand a piece of paper signed by Herr Hitler that garuantees peace in our time."

 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Mice! said:

Couldn't think of anything worse, ignore the Covid rules or laws, go on a jolly with some rioting and looting then you get what you want, I'm just going to say it, get the message out it will not be tolerated,  the vast majority of the country has stayed home now for umpteen weeks waiting to be allowed out.

If you demo peacefully keeping the 2mtrs crack on, if there is a repeat of what happened last weekend then I say crush them!! Stop the trouble makers in their tracks and the rest will go home, we don't negotiate with terrorists. 

Except we do!

 

You're not listening, let's just to agree to disagree.

Just now, TRINITY said:

I will had to that. What they are saying is, we have moved into your country and we dont like many things about it. We intend to change things that suit us and not you. We are still the minority but our numbers are growing. We will quickly be the majority and then this country will be ours and not yours and run totally for our benefit.

From my perspective, this is just wrong on so many levels. Doesn't make me right or you wrong but highlights the enormity of the societal challenge we are facing over this.

[clangerman]

2 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Couldn't think of anything worse, ignore the Covid rules or laws, go on a jolly with some rioting and looting then you get what you want, I'm just going to say it, get the message out it will not be tolerated,  the vast majority of the country has stayed home now for umpteen weeks waiting to be allowed out.

If you demo peacefully keeping the 2mtrs crack on, if there is a repeat of what happened last weekend then I say crush them!! Stop the trouble makers in their tracks and the rest will go home, we don't negotiate with terrorists. 

 

rioting and looting? 12 arrests out of thousands protesting i seen NO reports of looting in london WHAT terrorists? if your think constantly running these misguided fools down is going to achieve anything but make the situation worse your mistaken 

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

One that is likely to involve a thing called compromise.

One persons compromise is anothers "we won" and a thirds (you gave it away).  This is not sometime to be giving ground.

The message that "Protesting and disruption gets you what you want" MUST not come out of this.  I am reminded of the (I suspect quite false) Churchillian saying "You cannot reason with a tiger when your head is in it's mouth".

[TRINITY]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You're not listening, let's just to agree to disagree.

From my perspective, this is just wrong on so many levels. Doesn't make me right or you wrong but highlights the enormity of the societal challenge we are facing over this.

No way, there is a wider agenda at play here. Anyone who knows anything about military tactics can see what's happening. This is just a small skirmish at the moment to test the strength of the opposition. How easy the government cave in will give them an indication to their strength and resolve. I think they will win this skirmish, I think the government will reluctantly accept their demands in the hope it will be the end and we will all then live happily ever after. 

However this will not be enough, they will then push for more with new found confidence. I fear what will happen next.