Recall

[blade]

Hello all just wondered if anyone has any ideas. Got a 16 month sprocker her recall in garden or house is good. But as soon as I let her off lead she's gone and I mean gone any ideas please 

[Lloyd90]

Have you had her the entire 16 months? 
 

The book - Total Recall is pretty good. 

[blade]

Yes since she was a pup yep read the book tried everything in there. Still no joy 

[Mickeydredd]

Dont let her off the lead.

I think you need to get into her head that you are taking her training when you go out, not for a mad run around.  Get some discipline on the lead first away from home (no pulling etc).  Get some recall on a long line next.

Then take her to a plain grass field and try to go through training exercises with her.  If you achieve a semblance of discipline then extend from there.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Mickeydredd

[scutt]

Try to ignore the dog no fussing no talking if it comes up to you turn away no  eye contact only when you call it to you do you give it any praise and only call it to you one or two times a day try to take control .In a controlled area such as your garden starve the dog of your contact maybe sit on a seat in the garden and ignore the dog and when it no longer wants to be around you and loses interest call it into you. Worth a try.

[Rob85]

Before anything else I think you need to do more on lead discipline in the fields before letting him off. But like you're having now I had the same problems because I pushed training too quick as it was my first dog.

What cured my first dog of this carrying on was doing what Joe Irving suggested in his book which was to run away from the dog while calling it's name. Confuses the hell out if them as the dog is expecting you to chase after them when THEY run off and all pups love to play chase but what you are doing is reversing the game and trying to get the dog to chase you. Then when he gets to you make a big fuss of them or give them a little treat or whatever. Only do it in an area the dog can't literally run away from, like somewhere fenced off so the dog doesnt have a chance to go missing completely. Coupled with this is the two lead approach, I done this to stop the initial running away as soon as the lead was taken off. So have a long lead, I made my own with some wide strapping material, place that AND the dogs standard lead on it, when you let them off the lead make quite a show so the dog thinks it's free, if he bolts give him a few yards then bowl him over with the long lead. But when they get back to your side sitting you can then make a fuss of them I was amazed how quick that put manners into my dog.

 

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, blade said:

Yes since she was a pup yep read the book tried everything in there. Still no joy 

 

Sorry to be blunt, but the reason I asked was to see if you had picked the dog up recently or whether you've had it 16 months.

As you've had it 16 months, you've allowed this to go on and let the dog do it. You've basically trained the dog to **** off (although not intentionally), by letting it become an establish thing that the dog does for the last 16 months or whatever. 

 

Stop putting the dog in situations where it had the option to ****** off and be gone for long periods.

 

It would help if you can give more details or context or when this happens, where this happens and what your doing out at that time? 

Hopefully be able to help then  

[WelshAndy]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said: 
 

The book - Total Recall is pretty good. 

This 👆🏻

Best tenner you’ll ever spend 

[Dave at kelton]

2 minutes ago, WelshAndy said:

This 👆🏻

Best tenner you’ll ever spend 

Seconded. It is all about the proving bit. You have to work around all situations bit by bit.

[Walker570]

Back to basics and this time do it right. Some good ideas above but afraid you have to go back to basics and require very strict results. It's called obedience training.

[B725]

As Walker says go back to the beginning but as you have let the dog bog off for 16 months you will most likely need the use of a long line or you will just end up pulling your hair out.

[macca2017]

As others suggest, a long line and  firm response from you if the dog ignores you,  it wont be a quick fix, but good luck with it.

[ninjaferret]

5 hours ago, Rob85 said:

Before anything else I think you need to do more on lead discipline in the fields before letting him off. But like you're having now I had the same problems because I pushed training too quick as it was my first dog.

What cured my first dog of this carrying on was doing what Joe Irving suggested in his book which was to run away from the dog while calling it's name. Confuses the hell out if them as the dog is expecting you to chase after them when THEY run off and all pups love to play chase but what you are doing is reversing the game and trying to get the dog to chase you. Then when he gets to you make a big fuss of them or give them a little treat or whatever. Only do it in an area the dog can't literally run away from, like somewhere fenced off so the dog doesnt have a chance to go missing completely. Coupled with this is the two lead approach, I done this to stop the initial running away as soon as the lead was taken off. So have a long lead, I made my own with some wide strapping material, place that AND the dogs standard lead on it, when you let them off the lead make quite a show so the dog thinks it's free, if he bolts give him a few yards then bowl him over with the long lead. But when they get back to your side sitting you can then make a fuss of them I was amazed how quick that put manners into my dog.

 

Totally agree with this especially the two leads, I would have the two leads whatever you're doing with it. That way the dog forgets it's on . Sit him down and put the lead on and off so many he times he can't remember , tell him to walk at heel with lead in your hand even if it's not on , he think's it is . Walk him a few yards, Sit him down again do the same again, keep doing it.

[bigbird]

Walk it at heel on a lead or train it. Playtime and hunting for itself needs to stop.

Basically the outside world is far more interesting than you are.

Honestly now I think you’ve got to the point where you need the help of a trainer.

Whether you’re working from a book or with a trainer it’s Jack all good unless you’re going to be consistent. You have to put the work in and so does whoever walks the dog or you’re fighting a losing battle.

Edited to add: best of luck, we can all wax lyrical on here ‘til we’re blue in the face but none of us has seen the dog - I strongly suggest you go to somebody who can and who can help you. I also think berating you is not helping - stop it lads!  😊

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by bigbird

[samboy]

I got my Beddy x Whippet at about 2 yrs old. I asked the chap why he was getting rid of him. He said he's bad on the recall.

So i took him on and walked him round the fields where i live for a couple of weeks on the lead and then let him off.

 GONE. 1 hour later he turns up. next day same thing but this time 2 hours. So the 7 years i've had him he's been off the lead twice.

Cant take the chance of him running into the road and causing an accident. But he is one lovely dog and that's why i've kept him.

[scotslad]

Plenty of good advice above.

If he recalls well in garden he must know the command.

 

With the long line I tend to use a chest harness thing so not dragging under dogs feet and make the line out off washing line.

The plastic stuff tends to slide quite well throu stuff.

 

If ur meaning to working it I would be very very careful about working it this season.

Don't be tempted unless ur 110% certain and recall is perfect in all circumstances even around gamey scent

[Lloyd90]

3 hours ago, scotslad said:

Plenty of good advice above.

If he recalls well in garden he must know the command.

 

With the long line I tend to use a chest harness thing so not dragging under dogs feet and make the line out off washing line.

The plastic stuff tends to slide quite well throu stuff.

 

If ur meaning to working it I would be very very careful about working it this season.

Don't be tempted unless ur 110% certain and recall is perfect in all circumstances even around gamey scent

I’d write off working it this season.
 

If you can’t control it on a walk you’ve no chance on a shoot full of game. 

[ninjaferret]

I let this go a bit, just to see who know's what ,  but,  before you try any of the above advice one thing they have all over looked, asWALKER570, touched on back to basics.

First thing's first........................THE STOP WHISTLE,                    

         Until this is instilled your wasting your time with anything else. When you can sit him down every time first time, only then can you consider going any further.

[scotslad]

1 hour ago, ninjaferret said:

I let this go a bit, just to see who know's what ,  but,  before you try any of the above advice one thing they have all over looked, asWALKER570, touched on back to basics.

First thing's first........................THE STOP WHISTLE,                    

         Until this is instilled your wasting your time with anything else. When you can sit him down every time first time, only then can you consider going any further.

 

The only thing I'd say is many dogs will recall quite well even without a stop whistle, many pet dogs can have an excellent recall but no stop whistle. Don't imagine many pet dogs are ever trained for a stop whistle

 

Very important for a working dog to have a decent stop whistle but I would say  possibly complicating the issue in this case.

 

I know in circumstances described I would be training the recall and stop whistle separately. But no doubt stop/heel work and general obedience will also need plenty of work as someone said earlier back to basics.

And do u not need a good recall to train a stop?

I know it's the way I train it when I 1st introduce a stop at distance is during a recall. 

Without a good recall it would be hard to train a stop the way I train it

Edited September 11, 2020 by scotslad

[WalkedUp]

I would say that you are on a hiding to nothing now. Yes, training can be done once a dog is fully grown but it is much harder. I don’t want this to sound overly harsh but as you had the dog as a puppy when it was malleable and didn’t manage to train it then you may not be the best person for the job. Therefore you have three options:

1. Professional 1 on 1 instruction with a good obedience trainer  

2. Give up the dog (cowardly as you are passing a problem you created on)

3. Confine the dog to living life on a lead (unfair on the dog and just hard work) 

As the bottom two options aren’t great I think you will be able to make the right choice. 

[Walker570]

Don't give up on the dog.  I have found the single blast on a whistle the most important thing to train your dog to respond to.  It may be running into danger and if it screeched to a halt sits down and looks at you when it hears that whistle then that is simple good basic training. Long 30-40ft tracking lead essential in this case and be FIRM, being firm doesn't mean beating hell out of the dog but it must understand it is misbehaving.... no different to kids or a young trainee squaddie reacting to the RSMs commands, although they aren't allowed to shout at the poor litle souls these days are they?   When the dog does react favorably , lots of verbal praise and the recall whistle and again praise when it comes back.

Don't give up just yet as it is not impossible to solve the problem at this stage but you need to get on top of it NOW another month or two and you will have a problem and we have all seen them on shoots where they cannot let the dog off the lead.

[Lloyd90]

6 hours ago, scotslad said:

 

The only thing I'd say is many dogs will recall quite well even without a stop whistle, many pet dogs can have an excellent recall but no stop whistle. Don't imagine many pet dogs are ever trained for a stop whistle

 

Very important for a working dog to have a decent stop whistle but I would say  possibly complicating the issue in this case.

 

I know in circumstances described I would be training the recall and stop whistle separately. But no doubt stop/heel work and general obedience will also need plenty of work as someone said earlier back to basics.

And do u not need a good recall to train a stop?

I know it's the way I train it when I 1st introduce a stop at distance is during a recall. 

Without a good recall it would be hard to train a stop the way I train it

Agree with you fully Scotslad. 

On the path of basic training, the stop whistle comes after all the basics, sit, recall and retrieving. Stop at distance followed by handling is almost advanced before moving on to game. 
 

Whilst the stop whistle is an important part of training, it’s no good having a dog that does one of two things: 

1) stops and sits on a whistle; 

2) or ******* off the moment it is released from the sit ...

 

What good is a gundog that you have to stop every 10 yards?! 
 

The OP will I imagine want his dog running about and hunting WITHIN RANGE. So needs to train basic obedience and then progress onto teaching it to hunt a controlled area under his command. 

As we discussed over PM Blade, you’d be in a good position to follow a structured training plan in one of the many books (Joe Irving’s ones are good) ... or going to see a professional trainer. 

 

[ninjaferret]

Ok scotslad and obviously loyd, you disagree. So here's the scenario dog is running to a road and won't recall, what do you do ? Nothing ? Recall ? Oh yes he's not responding to that

Same scenario, dog is running towards the road. BUT as he's got that idea, you've pre empted the dog and blew the stop whistle and because you've instilled this simple lesson, what happens..........................he sits.

The stop whistle is totally different from anything else in training, you take back control. And as for the stop whistle coming after other things, and no good having a dog that stops and sit's to the whistle????????????????? Which book have you been reading. JESUS MAN.

[Lloyd90]

5 minutes ago, ninjaferret said:

Ok scotslad and obviously loyd, you disagree. So here's the scenario dog is running to a road and won't recall, what do you do ? Nothing ? Recall ? Oh yes he's not responding to that

Same scenario, dog is running towards the road. BUT as he's got that idea, you've pre empted the dog and blew the stop whistle and because you've instilled this simple lesson, what happens..........................he sits.

The stop whistle is totally different from anything else in training, you take back control. And as for the stop whistle coming after other things, and no good having a dog that stops and sit's to the whistle????????????????? Which book have you been reading. JESUS MAN.

 

That's not what I said though is it, please don't try and start more arguments ... Fact is, I agree with you that stop whistle training needs to be done ... HOWEVER... 

1) I said it's no good having a HUNTING DOG that you have to stop every 10 yards ... you need to train the dog to flow not become sticky and expect to stop every time it goes more than 5 steps. 

2) You obviously do train the dog to have a very solid stop... but you shouldn't (or would be stupid to) put the dog in a position to go wrong and even hasvethe opportunity to run across a busy road, before you have covered that part of training thoroughly. You should train the stop very thoroughly, but there are other parts of training that come first. 

3) What I said is, there are other parts of training that can be done to improve the situation beforehand.

 

We can all make up very specific single situation examples to try and make ourselves look good 🙄 ... if you read ANY of the training books, how many of them are teaching stop whistle AT A DISTANCE before teaching basic obedience, such as sit, stay, RECALL, and hunting in a small confined area? As I said, the OP doesn't want a dog that either runs off or he has sat at a distance away from him, he wants a dog that will hunt and work within range. It's going to take a combination of training different things to get there. 

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, ninjaferret said:

Ok scotslad and obviously loyd, you disagree. So here's the scenario dog is running to a road and won't recall, what do you do ? Nothing ? Recall ? Oh yes he's not responding to that

Same scenario, dog is running towards the road. BUT as he's got that idea, you've pre empted the dog and blew the stop whistle and because you've instilled this simple lesson, what happens..........................he sits.

The stop whistle is totally different from anything else in training, you take back control. And as for the stop whistle coming after other things, and no good having a dog that stops and sit's to the whistle????????????????? Which book have you been reading. JESUS MAN.

 

Also in your convenient example ... 

What if you blow the recall... and the dog stops running, turns around and comes back? 

What if you blow the sit ... and the dog doesn't sit, and instead carries on towards the road? 

PS you do know your only supposed to put three full stops ... 

[scotslad]

Each to there own, many ways to train dogs.

 

Not seen many dogs that will sit/stop on a whistle when running full pelt at a road that have not enough obedience training to recall.

I know at the end of a long season older more experienced picking up dogs the stop whistle is the 1st to disappear yet while still recall well

 

In my opinion recall tends to be easier to train  than a stop, esp so if a dog is running full pelt at a distance. Seen a lot of decent working dogs that won't do that 100% of the time. Seen quite a few beating line dogs that work semi ok ish and have never known wot a stop whistle is, fair enough on a lead most of the drive on a biggish shoot

 

For the OP I would not give up on dog just intensive basics and NO free running for a while. Plenty of lead walking with dog in the 'heel' position not pulling like a train and as Ninja says sitting on command on lead both whistle/hand/voice and when u stop he stops.

It must be instant and on 1st command

If a dog isn't obedient instantly while at ur side on a lead it's never going to be at distance with loads of other distractions about.

Be well worth a lesson with a decent pro trainer esp if u never used a long line, be easier ways and tricks to train when shown, can make a big difference.

Think of the cost as an investment in ur shooting and life in general as at moment ur dog will be useless as a shooting dog and a real pain in neck every day as a pet, no fun having a disobedient dog for ur day to day life.

I definately would use treats ( chicken or smoked sausage)  and high value 1s to help with recall if dog is for recall.

 

Just to add I don't see it as a choice between a stop or recall u should be teaching both at same time, just the op asked for help for recall 1st. But both are very important

Edited September 11, 2020 by scotslad