council tax

[armsid]

Just got next years council tax bill .And on it is council care tax almost 10% of my bill (i have single discount) what is it for my old age care or old age care for all in local comunity?If this is the case those who dont pay council tax will get off scot free. I know old age care is a hot potato at the moment due to funding but if a house has more than one occupant how is that worked out?The poll tax was a way that EVERYONE paid something but this became  a no no. and could now be the answer to council funding if the councils get their houses in order Your comments please

[mossy835]

i have to pay £15  a month more.cant belive it,

[Wilts#Dave]

It never goes down does it, take take take from those that aren’t on the scrounge it seems, 
£220/month mine’s just gone up to, does seem an awful lot of money for what you see for it! 

[scolopax]

The poll tax was by far fairest system.  But those who suddenly found themselves having to pay something whereas previously they paid nothing, did not quite think so.

[Lloyd90]

2 hours ago, armsid said:

Just got next years council tax bill .And on it is council care tax almost 10% of my bill (i have single discount) what is it for my old age care or old age care for all in local comunity?If this is the case those who dont pay council tax will get off scot free. I know old age care is a hot potato at the moment due to funding but if a house has more than one occupant how is that worked out?The poll tax was a way that EVERYONE paid something but this became  a no no. and could now be the answer to council funding if the councils get their houses in order Your comments please

It goes towards the local authority basically funding everything they do. 
 

That ranges from collecting the bins, doing the planning department etc. Schools, and obviously to Social Services, funding both adult and children’s services. 
 

 

Just last week I was having an argument with the manager of a care facility who wanted a young person moved elsewhere because they were challenging. The LA was paying them £280,000 a year for that kind of specialist placement.

 

There are massive numbers of placements like that due to people with disabilities, children who’ve been abused etc. 
 

Then you’ve got the hundreds of old people in nursing homes in every different Local Authority at £1,000+ per week. 
 

 

 

 

Here’s the problem. People are happy to complain that it’s terrible if disabled kids etc don’t get great care, but those same people also complain when their taxes go up! 
 

People complain “I’ve paid my stamp all my life!!” ... where as their NI contributions don’t go anywhere near covering the cost of their care. 
 

People complain that they don’t get to automatically own their parents homes when they go into a care home and expect the tax payer to pick up the tab so they can have a nice fat inheritance, but again will have a moan if their tax contributions are to go up. 
 

 

 

Our friends in Northern Ireland had an Aunt with terminal cancer. After a bit of hospital treatment she was sent home (to die) for the family to look after her. 
 

They had the community nurses call in say once a week which was vastly inadequate against the 24/7 nurses care you would receive over here in the U.K. 

 

 

We’d be better off with a political party who had the balls to say to people, they don’t have to have higher taxes but the cuts are going to impact on all those services. 
 

You can’t have low taxes and amazing services for all and everyone! 

[JohnfromUK]

5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

It goes towards the local authority basically funding everything they do. 

Agreed, and I'm not disagreeing with any of the spending challenges that you set out.

The problem I see is the unfair way in which it is charged;

• 1 Adult household ....... pay 75% tax
• 2 Adult household ........ pay 100% tax 'split between them, 50% per adult
• 3 Adult household ........ pay 100% tax 'split between them, 33% per adult
• 4 Adult household ........ pay 100% tax 'split between them, 25% per adult

So if the council tax on a property is say £2000 a year,

• a single person will pay £1500
• a couple will pay £1000 each
• a family of four adults will pay £500 each

This is not a fair way of charging - the Poll Tax in which every adult paid 'equally' was much fairer.

Edited March 13, 2021 by JohnfromUK

[yates]

5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

It goes towards the local authority basically funding everything they do. 
 

That ranges from collecting the bins, doing the planning department etc. Schools, and obviously to Social Services, funding both adult and children’s services. 
 

 

Just last week I was having an argument with the manager of a care facility who wanted a young person moved elsewhere because they were challenging. The LA was paying them £280,000 a year for that kind of specialist placement.

 

There are massive numbers of placements like that due to people with disabilities, children who’ve been abused etc. 
 

Then you’ve got the hundreds of old people in nursing homes in every different Local Authority at £1,000+ per week. 
 

 

 

 

Here’s the problem. People are happy to complain that it’s terrible if disabled kids etc don’t get great care, but those same people also complain when their taxes go up! 
 

People complain “I’ve paid my stamp all my life!!” ... where as their NI contributions don’t go anywhere near covering the cost of their care. 
 

People complain that they don’t get to automatically own their parents homes when they go into a care home and expect the tax payer to pick up the tab so they can have a nice fat inheritance, but again will have a moan if their tax contributions are to go up. 
 

 

 

Our friends in Northern Ireland had an Aunt with terminal cancer. After a bit of hospital treatment she was sent home (to die) for the family to look after her. 
 

They had the community nurses call in say once a week which was vastly inadequate against the 24/7 nurses care you would receive over here in the U.K. 

 

 

We’d be better off with a political party who had the balls to say to people, they don’t have to have higher taxes but the cuts are going to impact on all those services. 
 

You can’t have low taxes and amazing services for all and everyone! 

Some good points made. In the care facility that I manage the LA only pay a little over £500 per week per person for elderly care. Elderly care is a very unfair system as if you have worked hard, saved and have a house you have to pay the full cost of care yourself. If you no assets or savings the state meets the cost of care. I have been in a similar that to you Lloyd but on the other side of the fence. I wanted to provide a care  package for a challenging resident but could not do so as with the number of extra staff hours required the fees offered by the LA would have meant we would be making a loss. 

[Walker570]

7 hours ago, scolopax said:

The poll tax was by far fairest system.  But those who suddenly found themselves having to pay something whereas previously they paid nothing, did not quite think so.

Definitely a missed opportunity.  Ok we live in a nice old house but we only really see a couple of bins emptied and the street brushed clean maybe once a month but my bill this year is over £3000 for two old age pensioners.   Evrybody should pay their share equally.

[bostonmick]

Opposite my three bed is a eight bed three garage set in three acres detached but pays exactly the same council tax as me .So the current system is not a fair division .

[Walker570]

11 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

Opposite my three bed is a eight bed three garage set in three acres detached but pays exactly the same council tax as me .So the current system is not a fair division .

How many people in each property ?  The charge should not be on the size of the property or it's value but what the occupants are drawing personally from the system.

Like a house in Leicester where you have maybe seven or eight people and a house here in my very small village where one old lady lives on her own in a nice four bedroomed  home she and her husband bought and cherished all their lives.   That was where the poll tax was fair , we all paid our fair contribution.  Are you saying that old lady should leave her much loved home and go into a one bedroom flat somewhere?

While we are on the subject then why should I pay more than someone up the road with five kids.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Walker570

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Cross the Council Tax with the Poll Tax and make people pay a fair amount!

[TRINITY]

23 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Cross the Council Tax with the Poll Tax and make people pay a fair amount!

Yes fair point. Give each property an occupational tax rate. Then for everyone who lives there pays the same. With the present system you can have huge housing developments with identical properties. But all the people living there all pay different amounts depending on the size of their household. Yet they all get the same local authority benefits and make the same demand on services

[JohnfromUK]

45 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

my bill this year is over £3000 for two old age pensioners.

My bill this year (after single occupancy discount) is £2280 - which is twice as much as I pay on gas and electricity combined.  For the last few years we don't even get the grass verges cut (which they always used to do), and waste collection has halved in frequency ....... but the bill has gone up by more than inflation every year (up 2.8% this year).

[jeffgg]

Why should a single person house get a discount when using the same  facility's as a family. Same bin collection same street lights and so on. Two OAPs in a care home one worked all there life save money own house  has to pay for care. OAP 2 **** head never worked a day in there life, same care home same size room same food same care. We have got to pay it and that is it 

   

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, jeffgg said:

Why should a single person house get a discount when using the same  facility's as a family.

Less waste to collect, less risk of needing care (which is a risk on a 'per person' basis), ......... in many things - one person costs a lot less (maybe not half, but a lot less) than 2 persons.  Where I live has no street lighting, no public transport, no street cleaning ......... 

3 minutes ago, jeffgg said:

We have got to pay it and that is it

We have got to pay it - but the payments needed should be fairly portioned to those who receive the services.  For example households with several adults paying more than single householders.

[Stuarta]

What is not disclosed is the fact that nearly 40% of council tax is used to pay pensions of retired council workers, then take off the wages of people employed by the council and very little is left for services.

[old man]

59 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Cross the Council Tax with the Poll Tax and make people pay a fair amount!

The one thing that the Poll Tax illustrated well, was the inability of the system to track and trace the vast numbers who had no intention of paying?

The only ones caught out as usual were the ones with a traceable permanent abode?

A huge industry created to administer it finally gave up and wrote off the outstanding debt which was quickly swept under the carpet?

 

[JohnfromUK]

19 minutes ago, Stuarta said:

What is not disclosed is the fact that nearly 40% of council tax is used to pay pensions of retired council workers

Yes - I believe that is true - and yet most (private) industry had to put away money for pensions (either in company pension plans such as large companies, or with pension providers, such as the insurance industry for small companies).

 

8 minutes ago, old man said:

The one thing that the Poll Tax illustrated well, was the inability of the system to track and trace the vast numbers who had no intention of paying?

In many parts/aspects of British life, obeying the law is somewhat voluntary.  Just lookm atb the number of untaxed vehicles, uninsured vehilcles, unpaid fines, taxes owed ......

There are large parts of the community who contribute virtually nothing other than a bit of VAT on their cigarettes/drinks (if they buy them legally) - and yet are the first to expect benefits etc.

[Vince Green]

The poll tax was much fairer for a number of reasons. One of the key points, often missed,  was it also prevented postal ballot fraud in elections. This was because you could no longer register extra ficticious postal voters at your address without having to pay extra poll tax for them.

Labour, who had come to rely on fake postal votes went ballistic and the Poll tax Riots resulted

[old man]

27 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Yes - I believe that is true - and yet most (private) industry had to put away money for pensions (either in company pension plans such as large companies, or with pension providers, such as the insurance industry for small companies).

 

In many parts/aspects of British life, obeying the law is somewhat voluntary.  Just lookm atb the number of untaxed vehicles, uninsured vehilcles, unpaid fines, taxes owed ......

There are large parts of the community who contribute virtually nothing other than a bit of VAT on their cigarettes/drinks (if they buy them legally) - and yet are the first to expect benefits etc.

Certainly true they contribute but pension revenues also recovered by investments from the market place via a separate entity?

No disputing your correct comment about the avoiders? Nothing is ever done about levelling the field?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, jeffgg said:

Why should a single person house get a discount when using the same  facility's as a family. Same bin collection same street lights and so on. Two OAPs in a care home one worked all there life save money own house  has to pay for care. OAP 2 **** head never worked a day in there life, same care home same size room same food same care. We have got to pay it and that is it 

Simply because one person does not use the same amount of facilities as a family!

[Vince Green]

49 minutes ago, old man said:

The one thing that the Poll Tax illustrated well, was the inability of the system to track and trace the vast numbers who had no intention of paying?

The only ones caught out as usual were the ones with a traceable permanent abode?

A huge industry created to administer it finally gave up and wrote off the outstanding debt which was quickly swept under the carpet?

 

Part of that was because a lot of the people didn't exist. 

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, old man said:

Certainly true they contribute but pension revenues also recovered by investments from the market place via a separate entity?

I don't know the full breakdown of how councils fund their pensions, but the suggestion in the link is about 20% of revenue goes on pensions.

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/council_spending_uncovered_ii_no_3_pensions_ljfyl_rqs9kanp9hwr5igfxm7oi

[henry d]

2 hours ago, Stuarta said:

What is not disclosed is the fact that nearly 40% of council tax is used to pay pensions of retired council workers, then take off the wages of people employed by the council and very little is left for services.

That's because councils didn't put money away for the pensions. I was "paying" around 13% towards mine, but it just didn't see light of day. I now consider myself reasonably well off, not minted, just enough to not worry too much about bills or other surprise expenditure.

[old man]

3 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Part of that was because a lot of the people didn't exist. 

Maybe that explains why Birmingham was left with circa £800 million unpaid Vince?