India

[Raja Clavata]

Numerous colleagues and friends sadly reporting loss of loved ones back in India, for once the media don't appear to need to sensationalise the facts, tragic really. 

[Mungler]

On 25/04/2021 at 12:43, ditchman said:

if they had spent a bit more money on there infrastructure rather than send rockets to the moon and mars  and the nuclear deterrnt and buying up british manufacting...they would be in a better situation...........also the cast system is not help-ing matters either........

I agree.

We had this discussion in the context of what it would take to pull India over - if I was of the wrong cast and (1) going to die of starvation (from being at the bottom of the proverbial food chain in India) or (2) going to die because I’m at the bottom of the list to receive oxygen / basic medical care - then at what point do I tip the table over, get out on the streets and start rioting?

We can talk about India but we won’t get our heads round it - Mr Thick-as-mince-himself-David-Lammy was on LBC the other day taking a call from an Indian chap.

Lammy couldn’t get his head round why India couldn’t just lockdown and have a circuit break? The answer being they’d just starve - there’s no supermarket infrastructure, not everyone even has a fridge and poverty is so real that 2 weeks locked down means 2 weeks without food and death by starvation. 

He then asked why couldn’t the government just airlift in food to those who needed it? Errrrr because it’s India and you can’t do meals on wheels to 1.3 billion people you total and utter clown. 

 

[ditchman]

4 hours ago, Mungler said:

I agree.

We had this discussion in the context of what it would take to pull India over - if I was of the wrong cast and (1) going to die of starvation (from being at the bottom of the proverbial food chain in India) or (2) going to die because I’m at the bottom of the list to receive oxygen / basic medical care - then at what point do I tip the table over, get out on the streets and start rioting?

We can talk about India but we won’t get our heads round it - Mr Thick-as-mince-himself-David-Lammy was on LBC the other day taking a call from an Indian chap.

Lammy couldn’t get his head round why India couldn’t just lockdown and have a circuit break? The answer being they’d just starve - there’s no supermarket infrastructure, not everyone even has a fridge and poverty is so real that 2 weeks locked down means 2 weeks without food and death by starvation. 

He then asked why couldn’t the government just airlift in food to those who needed it? Errrrr because it’s India and you can’t do meals on wheels to 1.3 billion people you total and utter clown. 

 

thank you for being so erudite..........................like a lot of stories being reported on the media the reporters (who are there) are incaperble of reporting a true and accurate state of events,,......either because they are too thick or it dosnt suit their news style...and as a result the more rubbish the readers/veiwers are fed the more less informed they become....

you know the rest..........

[Walker570]

On 25/04/2021 at 12:43, ditchman said:

if they had spent a bit more money on there infrastructure rather than send rockets to the moon and mars  and the nuclear deterrnt and buying up british manufacting...they would be in a better situation...........also the cast system is not help-ing matters either........

THIS plus the way they live out there, what do you expect.  Had a friend who went on a hunting trip out there and they stopped in a town for supplies. He saw some kids playing in a stream but when he approached realised it was an open sewer.

[243deer]

Looks like India are on track to achieve a greater degree of herd immunisation against the current cv variants quicker than most countries.

As to statistics - I do not believe any country is yet reporting 100% correctly deaths due directly to CV nor is it likely to happen. The almost infinite number of outside influences that could be relevant to any death really do prevent accurate numbers.

Todays society now expects graphs and figures and also accepts them as meaningful if they appear in the media without really questioning as that is uncomfortable.

This being the case and with the effects of the virus on the younger generations being shown to be reasonably negligible, why are we not allowing the younger generations to mix freely, catch cv and get over their mild symptoms as quickly as possible? That should reduce the overall number of infectious folk quite quickly. Those of use that are in the more vulnerable age groups can continue to be sensible, get jabs if they chose to do so etc etc. 

In 10 years time we will probably no longer be discussing the cv death rates, just as we have not discussed the deaths from flu, even though they existed before cv and now appear to have disappeared completely, from the statistics at least.

[JohnfromUK]

34 minutes ago, 243deer said:

the effects of the virus on the younger generations being shown to be reasonably negligible

I'm not sure that is the case; it seems that quite a significant minority of those getting seriously ill/dying in India are not elderly.  There seems to be some suggestion that the variants in Brazil and India are more likely to serious for the less elderly compared to the original variant.

It was certainly true that in the UK it (in both original and Kent variants) was far more likely to cause serious illness/fatality in the older patients.  The picture for overseas variants seems less clear on that.

[243deer]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I'm not sure that is the case;

I agree, I am not sure either, so much of what has been decided we should/must do has been based on incomplete or inaccurate evidence.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, 243deer said:

so much of what has been decided we should/must do has been based on incomplete or inaccurate evidence.

It is very difficult to see the evidence - both UK where there is no doubt that wrong causes of death have been recorded - and asymptomatic cases are a big grey area despite quite widespread testing.

However in the less developed countries (India, South America, Africa) both the testing and medical care are less available - and all one can say with any certainty on both India and Brazil particularly is that they do have a very high level of serious illness and deaths.  I don't think any 'numerical value' reported has any real accuracy at all.

What is fairly clear to me is that what the UK has done since say Christmas has worked reasonably well - and we have dramatically reduced both cases and even reduced more deaths and hospital admissions.  How much of this is vaccines and how much 'isolation type rules' is less clear, but clearly vaccines play a big part now.  Only today I have had a text from my Dr's surgery to the effect that they are resuming regular blood tests and reviews and I have been summoned after a years absence.

 

[243deer]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

How much of this is vaccines and how much 'isolation type rules' is less clear

there is also the third criteria of more folk having had cv (albeit knowingly, unknowingly and even with an incorrect test result) and the number of infectious folk dropping naturally.

I think some isolation type rules are being hugely flouted, by most parts of society, much to the annoyance of the cv police, yet, as you rightly say deaths and admissions are down. 

Could there also be a further correlation that despite folk meeting up when they were not supposed to they did at least use common sense and restrict themselves largely to outdoors due to the good weather we have had in the last few weeks? There was certainly a big drop off in admissions last summer as well.

As always there is no right answer, all we can do is try things and see what works and what does not.

[JohnfromUK]

30 minutes ago, 243deer said:

Could there also be a further correlation that despite folk meeting up when they were not supposed to they did at least use common sense and restrict themselves largely to outdoors due to the good weather we have had in the last few weeks?

I think that is certainly true.  In the small village I live in - as far as I can see, people have been flouting the 'letter of the rules' all the time - in that friends walk dogs together etc., but it is outside and they keep their distances.  We have had cases in the village - but they have all been infected elsewhere (as per track and trace) and as far as is known nothing passed locally - and the 'time frames' also did not fit for local transmission.

I don't know enough about how these things work in India - but I do know that (for example) crowding on public transport is commonplace, there have been a lot of religious festivals recently and their vaccination percentage is low so far.

[ditchman]

this afternoon i have my 2nd covid-19 jab.....................................why is it when i see the reports from India i feel guilty ?

[243deer]

5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't know enough about how these things work in India - but I do know that (for example) crowding on public transport is commonplace, there have been a lot of religious festivals recently and their vaccination percentage is low so far.

I think India is going to be the benchmark for letting the virus run its natural course. Millions of deaths may occur or an alternative way to die with underlying problems or unlucky genes - time and approximate overall deaths year on year in India will tell.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, ditchman said:

why is it when i see the reports from India i feel guilty ?

Because you are human, with compassion

[ditchman]

it is being reported that govt information from the crematoriums indicate that on average they are dealing with 150 bodies/day..............that is from govt sources.........

from the crematoriums directly ...they have logged they are dealing with 5-600 bodies / day and there is a backlog........

[Walker570]

I have had both of my jabs and do not feel the least bit guilty. The Government got something right for a change along with a supperb response from Doctors Practises, certainly in my area.     My worry is that this 'compassion' will allow people to continue to pour into the country illegally bringing further disease with them.

[ditchman]

just watching the news come in...............those cremation pyres are bloody diabolicle..............they are now using wet fresh cut wood and not getting a good burn temperature...so the bodies are slowly cooking not burning...lots of smoke and fumes...........

and here we are anno 2021.........living and dying like wild animals....but sending rockets to mars and holidays around the moon and spending billions on different ways of killing each other..........

totally unbelievable............

[Jim Neal]

13 hours ago, ditchman said:

spending billions on different ways of killing each other..........

Mind boggling isn't it.  I wonder what all the world's countries' combined defence budgets could pay for in terms of hospitals, doctors, nurses and medicines?  But then we'd have to feed and house everyone that was living longer.... hmmmmm you don't suppose.....?

Still, something baffles me.  India's official death toll per million people is 147 and the UK currently stands at 1870 which is over 12 times as high.  Even allowing for inaccurate reporting of deaths in India there must still be a massive difference.  Even Brazil haven't quite overtaken us yet, and the USA is still quite behind.  All three of those other countries have been portrayed in the news as having been undergoing an apocalyptic disaster at the hands of covid..... but we racked up most of our tally last Autumn/Winter and there wasn't a media frenzy, was there?

Edited April 28, 2021 by Jim Neal

[henry d]

6 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Even allowing for inaccurate reporting of deaths in India there must still be a massive difference. 

If you look at the graphic showing infections you will see it is still going up, yes the positive cases are also underreported, but the main thing is the number of deaths are lagging the infection figure by 2-4 weeks over the past week there are around 360 000 new infections per day and if only 1% die that equates to 3 600 per day! 

[Mungler]

20 hours ago, ditchman said:

just watching the news come in...............those cremation pyres are bloody diabolicle..............they are now using wet fresh cut wood and not getting a good burn temperature...so the bodies are slowly cooking not burning...lots of smoke and fumes...........

and here we are anno 2021.........living and dying like wild animals....but sending rockets to mars and holidays around the moon and spending billions on different ways of killing each other..........

totally unbelievable............

Very well put.

I may borrow that too.

[Mice!]

21 hours ago, ditchman said:

just watching the news come in...............those cremation pyres are bloody diabolicle..............they are now using wet fresh cut wood and not getting a good burn temperature...so the bodies are slowly cooking not burning...lots of smoke and fumes...........

and here we are anno 2021.........living and dying like wild animals....but sending rockets to mars and holidays around the moon and spending billions on different ways of killing each other..........

totally unbelievable............

You could ask why some countries like India have barely changed in a 100 years, there are probably rural areas in India,  Africa and many other countries where things are still done the same way, but imagine how much our country has changed in the last 100 years. 

As for defence budgets,  look what happens to countries that don't have any particular defense,  someone comes along and says I'll have that.

[henry d]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

As for defence budgets,  look what happens to countries that don't have any particular defense,  someone comes along and says I'll have that.

Perhaps you should point this out to Nicola Sturgeon?

[udderlyoffroad]

8 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Even allowing for inaccurate reporting of deaths in India massive over-reporting of deaths 'with' COVID in the UK

Seriously, you don't surely still believe the official figures?  SAGE is minuted as wanting to scare people, so it was in their interest to inflate the death toll. As for India under-reporting numbers...have you watched any programme about India, ever?

Also, it must be said, how many people per day in India die from Starvation or diseases associated with a lack of basic sanitation?  And now we suddenly care because they have a disease?

4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

You could ask why some countries like India have barely changed in a 100 years

India has changed massively within just the last 20....but the trickle down effect is particularly slow to reach the lower strata of society. 

[ditchman]

still cant get my head around the death toll for india..........it just seems to be so little for such a populas poor infrustructure country..........the govt' are reporting 150 bodies being processed everyday on average at the crem' sites.....yet the media are reporting 5-600/day/site.....with a back log (as i posted earlier)

i really do think.....that many countries are VASTLY  under reporting their death toll....european countries as well..........im sure it will all come out in the wash eventually..and the indian tally will bear no resemblence to the published govt' figures

[Stuarta]

Statistics are like bikinis, they show a lot but hide the most important.

[dead eye alan]

9 minutes ago, Stuarta said:

Statistics are like bikinis, they show a lot but hide the most important.

There are lies dammed lies and statistics, Benjamin Disraeli. Never a truer word!