Challenges for shooting in animal welfare shake-up

[Conor O'Gorman]

Defra’s Action Plan for Animal Welfare covers a range of topics with potential to impact on shooting/conservation including animal sentience, hares, 'trophy hunting', snares and electronic training collars.

A good overview of the issues is here:

https://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/animalsentience/

 

[PeterHenry]

My feelings are that 'animal sentience' is the thing that is going to be used to damage our sport the most.

The other things are very specific, albeit largely unwanted.

Animal sentience is a sea change by comparison. There will be huge ramifications because of this - perhaps not under this government, but future ones who are less tolerant (if that word can be used about our current administration) towards us.

Edited May 14, 2021 by PeterHenry

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

My feelings are that 'animal sentience' is the thing that is going to be used to damage our sport the most.

The other things are very specific, albeit largely unwanted.

Animal sentience is a sea change by comparison. There will be huge ramifications because of this - perhaps not under this government, but future ones who are less tolerant (if that word can be used about our current administration) towards us.

^^^This^^^

With the exception that "the thing" is actually ourselves. It has been said before, if we don't sort ourselves out then someone will do it for us and that will really hurt.

[grahamch]

This smells heavily of the blond bint Boris lives with, she's an animal rights type and doubtless has overdue influence of the was No 10 works.

God help the Scots with more looney greens in their so called government.

 

[Fellside]

7 hours ago, grahamch said:

This smells heavily of the blond bint Boris lives with, she's an animal rights type and doubtless has overdue influence of the was No 10 works.

God help the Scots with more looney greens in their so called government.

 

A lot has unravelled since Cummings left. I think he was trying his best to prevent ‘Princess Nut Nuts’, as he called her, from influencing policy. 

[12gauge82]

I think rather than fight this view, we as shooters should embrace it and lead the way in advocating animal welfare, which to a large extent I think we already do. To deny animals are sentient and have thought would be counterintuitive, it's obvious that they do. What shooter do you know that doesn't take it personally when we take a shoot and don't get an instant, humane kill? If they come after us on that front, where we as shooters, take humane shots on a small scale either for the table or to control pests that do damage or threaten other wildlife, they're going to have to go through mass farming and eating meat in general first. 

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think rather than fight this view, we as shooters should embrace it and lead the way in advocating animal welfare, which to a large extent I think we already do. To deny animals are sentient and have thought would be counterintuitive, it's obvious that they do. What shooter do you know that doesn't take it personally when we take a shoot and don't get an instant, humane kill? If they come after us on that front, where we as shooters, take humane shots on a small scale either for the table or to control pests that do damage or threaten other wildlife, they're going to have to go through mass farming and eating meat in general first. 

^^^^ This is where I think we are at. Get our own house in order and keep it that way. WE started with the lead, we need to do plastic, mass game bird population impacts and so on. We must try to be ahead of the legislation not following. 

[clangerman]

29 minutes ago, oowee said:

^^^^ This is where I think we are at. Get our own house in order and keep it that way. WE started with the lead, we need to do plastic, mass game bird population impacts and so on. We must try to be ahead of the legislation not following. 

so with birds having feeling and emotion who has a explanation when the antis claim we switched to a less humane tool because i won’t be lying about it 

[oowee]

36 minutes ago, clangerman said:

so with birds having feeling and emotion who has a explanation when the antis claim we switched to a less humane tool because i won’t be lying about it 

Whatever you shoot with you are responsible for a clean kill. 

[12gauge82]

36 minutes ago, clangerman said:

so with birds having feeling and emotion who has a explanation when the antis claim we switched to a less humane tool because i won’t be lying about it 

Their argument would be lead shot causes far more death and suffering due to lead getting into the environment than a single bird getting shot. Our response if that issue comes up os that we simply shorten our range slightly. 

Just now, oowee said:

Whatever you shoot with you are responsible for a clean kill. 

Beat me. 

[clangerman]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Their argument would be lead shot causes far more death and suffering due to lead getting into the environment than a single bird getting shot. Our response if that issue comes up os that we simply shorten our range slightly. 

Beat me. 

can’t see the antis wearing any of the above but plus side when the flack starts we all know who called for a steel ban is that a bus i hear? lol 

[bluesj]

4 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think rather than fight this view, we as shooters should embrace it and lead the way in advocating animal welfare, which to a large extent I think we already do. To deny animals are sentient and have thought would be counterintuitive, it's obvious that they do. What shooter do you know that doesn't take it personally when we take a shoot and don't get an instant, humane kill? If they come after us on that front, where we as shooters, take humane shots on a small scale either for the table or to control pests that do damage or threaten other wildlife, they're going to have to go through mass farming and eating meat in general first. 

The trouble is yes we think of the 1 animal when we are killing it be it a deer pheasant or a rat but the antis always think of the one animal they don't see the killing of a rabbit with mixy as the best thing for the rabbit and all rabbits. 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, bluesj said:

The trouble is yes we think of the 1 animal when we are killing it be it a deer pheasant or a rat but the antis always think of the one animal they don't see the killing of a rabbit with mixy as the best thing for the rabbit and all rabbits. 

True that, which is why I believe we need to argue using logic and fact. So to deny animals are sentient is a loosing battle, they are. That doesn't mean that sensible control isn't required, as an example, we all know if a herd of deer were not controlled, the entire herd would suffer, not to mention the damage to trees and land, therefore sensible shooting and conservation is protecting sentient beings. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by 12gauge82

[armsid]

Just reading article about this and the gov. are going to debate about it. What are the problems going to be for shooting and fishing? comments please 

[Scully]

Thread already running in General Shooting Matters. 

[matone]

16 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

True that, which is why I believe we need to argue using logic and fact. So to deny animals are sentient is a loosing battle, they are. That doesn't mean that sensible control isn't required, as an example, we all know if a herd of deer were not controlled, the entire herd would suffer, not to mention the damage to trees and land, therefore sensible shooting and conservation is protecting sentient beings. 

Far too much logic there for any malicious anti to swallow.....they`re not interested in animal welfare, just getting rid of us.....

Edited May 16, 2021 by matone
comma.

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, matone said:

Far too much logic there for any malicious anti to swallow.....they`re not interested in animal welfare, just getting rid of us.....

Again agreed, but it's not the antis who will make the law. 

[matone]

That`s true but I and many I know ,think they are far better at lobbying decision makers than our team are sadly.

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, matone said:

That`s true but I and many I know ,think they are far better at lobbying decision makers than our team are sadly.

👍 Time will tell I guess. 

[matone]

To quote Lord Ripon;

I cannot,dismiss the subject of shooting altogether without alluding to that side of it which appeals so strongly to every true sportsman,and that is the close contact into which it brings him with nature.To be really interested in shooting means a knowledge and study of woodcraft,of the habits and ways of bird and beast.The legislationwhich is levelled against the owners of land is doing its best to destroy the pld type of country gentleman in whom the love of sport and nature has always been indissolubly united.To him the crow of the grouse as it speeds along the purple heather,or the gutteral note of the pheasant as he flies across the crimson sky on a winters afternoon,brings with them a sense of joyous exultation; and the moors,fields,hedgerows and woods sheltering myriads of winged and four footed creatures,are for him full of potent and indefinable charm.

`Maybe a generation will spring upto whom all these things are a closed book;but when that day comes England will lose one of her most cherished traditions.For the England of whom the poets have sung for many centuries will have ceased to exist.`

 

Fine words from a man long gone but perhaps more pertinent than ever.

[London Best]

18 minutes ago, matone said:

To quote Lord Ripon;

I cannot,dismiss the subject of shooting altogether without alluding to that side of it which appeals so strongly to every true sportsman,and that is the close contact into which it brings him with nature.To be really interested in shooting means a knowledge and study of woodcraft,of the habits and ways of bird and beast.The legislationwhich is levelled against the owners of land is doing its best to destroy the pld type of country gentleman in whom the love of sport and nature has always been indissolubly united.To him the crow of the grouse as it speeds along the purple heather,or the gutteral note of the pheasant as he flies across the crimson sky on a winters afternoon,brings with them a sense of joyous exultation; and the moors,fields,hedgerows and woods sheltering myriads of winged and four footed creatures,are for him full of potent and indefinable charm.

`Maybe a generation will spring upto whom all these things are a closed book;but when that day comes England will lose one of her most cherished traditions.For the England of whom the poets have sung for many centuries will have ceased to exist.`

 

Fine words from a man long gone but perhaps more pertinent than ever.

Well posted. 
Lord Ripon’s words have come SO true.

[adzyvilla]

Personally, I don't think it matters what we as a group say or do, it won't make the slightest bit of difference. The time to stand our ground went by a long time ago and we have been fighting unsuccessful rearguard actions ever since just delaying the inevitable. The rights and wrongs of this potential legislation and how they apply to shooting are immaterial, as our detractors will find a way to use it as another stick to beat us with no matter what we say otherwise, they always do. As alluded to above, facts should be used to win the argument, but we now exist in an age where feelings and emotions are far more important and you may as well scream into the void as try and win an argument using logic and reason. We could try yet more appeasement, but its not getting us anywhere, just more self inflicted wounds in the death by 1000 cuts we are subjecting ourselves to on a daily basis. If we had been more vociferous in defending what we do when we had some sway, we probably wouldn't be where we are now, but who knows? With our lobbying groups looking after their own interests and being infiltrated by the very people looking to destroy us rather than coming together and fighting a united front, we don't have a chance now. Sorry to be so downbeat, but make the most of it while we are still allowed to do what we do, cos it won't be here much longer.

[matone]

Not downbeat ,a realistic view of where we are! Well said.

[lampro]

I don't think this should effect shooting and hunting, I would aim it more at animal testing research allot of primates are involved and to be fair I don't agree with using our closest relatives for any type of research. Regards the fishing you all know every tree hugger is going to jump on this just like they did with  fox hunting ect, everyone will always have a difference of opion for there reasons in hunting fishing shooting so there will always be a debate on it and it will always end up with who ever in the government is looking for a vote at the time 

[Lloyd90]

On 14/05/2021 at 11:21, PeterHenry said:

My feelings are that 'animal sentience' is the thing that is going to be used to damage our sport the most.

The other things are very specific, albeit largely unwanted.

Animal sentience is a sea change by comparison. There will be huge ramifications because of this - perhaps not under this government, but future ones who are less tolerant (if that word can be used about our current administration) towards us.

 

As quoted from the Field Sports channel 

Like many EU and EC rules, the rules are more to be admired for their intention than their real legal teeth. And when it comes to sentience, they only apply to livestock. Neither the EU/EC nor the government in England want to change the rules for wildlife.

 

So won't apply to game then?