Legality of vaccine passports

[butchdickason]

Choice in my opinion, have the 2 jabs and be able to travel or decline and stay home.  The countries make their own rules for visitors regarding medical requirements.

Edited July 5, 2021 by butchdickason
spelling error.

[JTaylor91]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You're seemingly confused by the word passport.  You will need to show proof of vaccination in order to be able to enter countries, not leave the UK.  Other countries' entry requirements is outwith the UK government's control.

Many countries will not accept that piece of card the vaccine centre gives you.  Some will require a letter from the NHS, others will require more hoops to be jumped through.

The EU is of course seeking to punish the UK for going its own way and we now, apparently, have the 'wrong type' of vaccines.  Utter puerile nonsense of the first water, but the usual suspects will lap it up.  Spain, Greece etc might not be so keen.

And here's the rub.  If you start to look at the mental health picture caused by this lockdown, we are a sick, sick nation, and many people will die unnecessarily, or at least significantly before their time due illnesses brought on by poor mental health, not to mention a complete lack of things humans need, like sunlight and contact with other humans.

 

I think you're confused.  You could, were it accepted by the given country you're travelling to.  Guess what, most countries don't.

All the countries that the airline I work for fly to do. Just to add I’m not sure how stating the fact you can share your vaccine passport from the app has me confused? I never mentioned what countries do/don’t accept it.

Edited July 5, 2021 by JTaylor91

[udderlyoffroad]

57 minutes ago, JTaylor91 said:

All the countries that the airline I work for fly to do.

Accept what, the NHS app?  

A quick google of which countries accept the NHS app seems to reveal an at best mixed bag.  And why would they?

57 minutes ago, JTaylor91 said:

I never mentioned what countries do/don’t accept it.

Which makes it even less than useless.

True, the EU were never going to give us an easy ride - although views within member states are distinctly variable - but the fact that our useless FO can't even get it together to sort a reciprocal arrangement with the US is absolutely scandalous.

 

[Vince Green]

Part of the reason a vaccine certificate is never going to work is because there is no international standard. People arriving in this country from India were supposed to have taken a covid test before they could fly, but the evidence now is that a lot of the tests were fraudulent.

"Take the money and run" bogus testing outfits were popping up all over the place. giving out fake certificates in exchange for cash. Result, 5% of all passengers arriving from India tested positive on arrival in the UK 

But they had infected a lot more passengers on the plane coming over. So a week later its more than 30% who are positive

This is never going to work, its a free for all

Its going to have to get a whole lot better . In the case of India, testing must be done by the British Embassy. Turning up with a bit of paper is not going to work.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Vince Green

[Gordon R]

People have been forging bank notes, passports, National Insurance cards for many years and to a decent standard, so forging vaccine certificates is a piece of cake.

[Mungler]

I have mixed views on this.

For me, in my younger days having stood in many a nightclub queue and swallowed who knows what, I’d be a hypocrite to get fussy with a vaccine now. I’m 50 next year, I’ve had my kids and broadly I’ve had a good run at life and there’s more chance of Covid ironing me out than a wonky vaccine. But yes, if I was younger, hadn’t had children yet, was healthier (and at a near to zero risk from Covid) the history of the wonder drug that was thalidomide or the wonder material created by scientists called asbestos would weigh heavily on my mind.

The whole can’t travel without a vaccine thing is part private contractual terms of travel carrier, part destination country sovereign law and part consideration to those who will travel in recycled air with you and so it’s not just about the individual.

But, there is a Columbo point here. Where do we draw a line and where do we say ‘this is the hill I’ll die on’ because it’s not just about this in the here and now it’s what happens when the Government says ‘and just one more thing, in addition to the vaccine which you have to have before entry into a public building / attending an event / going to university / getting on a plane, you now have to x, y and z too’

Anyways, I don’t know the right and wrong of it - I’m a big fan of civil liberties because when they’re gone they don’t ever come back. My overriding view of this pandemic has been ‘I’ll worry about me and I’ll do me, you worry about you and you do you’.

I would add that my eldest (20) has opted for the vaccine on the basis ‘he’d take anything to get let out properly again or get abroad with the lads’. So, no real deep thought other than a young man wanting to get back to living  a real life.

Tricky, all of it.

.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Mungler

[udderlyoffroad]

41 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I have mixed views on this.

For me, in my younger days having stood in many a nightclub queue and swallowed who knows what, I’d be a hypocrite to get fussy with a vaccine now. I’m 50 next year, I’ve had my kids and broadly I’ve had a good run at life and there’s more chance of Covid ironing me out than a wonky vaccine. But yes, if I was younger, hadn’t had children yet, was healthier (and at a near to zero risk from Covid) the history of the wonder drug that was thalidomide or the wonder material created by scientists called asbestos would weigh heavily on my mind.

The whole can’t travel without a vaccine thing is part private contractual terms of travel carrier, part destination country sovereign law and part consideration to those who will travel in recycled air with you and so it’s not just about the individual.

But, there is a Columbo point here. Where do we draw a line and where do we say ‘this is the hill I’ll die on’ because it’s not just about this in the here and now it’s what happens when the Government says ‘and just one more thing, in addition to the vaccine which you have to have before entry into a public building / attending an event / going to university / getting on a plane, you now have to x, y and z too’

Anyways, I don’t know the right and wrong of it - I’m a big fan of civil liberties because when they’re gone they don’t ever come back. My overriding view of this pandemic has been ‘I’ll worry about me and I’ll do me, you worry about you and you do you’.

I would add that my eldest (20) has opted for the vaccine on the basis ‘he’d take anything to get let out properly again or get abroad with the lads’. So, no real deep thought other than a young man wanting to get back to living  a real life.

Tricky, all of it.

.

Post of the week right there. 👏

I've been chided for it on the other thread, but the hill on which I will die is the vax passports for everyday life domestically, i.e. going to the shops or a pub.

Early indications are it will be the NHS COVID Pass app (not track and trace), so you likely will be showing your QR code on your phone to gain entry to places.

It's the start of August next week, and they want this in universities before term starts mid September.  I predict a riot, or at the very least, a somewhat chaotic fresher's week.

[oowee]

Out in Skopolos now and some places are asking for double jab proof to go in. For the country I had to get the NHS printed letter which is accepted rather than the card or nhs app. 

[Newbie to this]

6 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I predict a riot

I predict a lot of TAX Payer's money changing hands, for something that doesn't work, and will be rebelled against.

[Vince Green]

I have now heard of three people (all double jabbed) who have tested positive this week. All parents of kids in my step grandson's year at school. They had a very low key leavers party on the last day but it was all done very cautiously. Or so everyone thought 

so how much use is a vaccination passport actually going to be in real terms?

It is, after all, not about stopping people travelling its about stopping the virus travelling

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

I have now heard of three people (all double jabbed) who have tested positive this week. All parents of kids in my step grandson's year at school. They had a very low key leavers party on the last day but it was all done very cautiously. Or so everyone thought 

so how much use is a vaccination passport actually going to be in real terms?

It is, after all, not about stopping people travelling its about stopping the virus travelling

It’s about stopping the virus from hospitalising numbers in quantities big enough to overwhelm the NHS. 
It’s not about stopping us getting the virus, it’s not about stopping us travelling, it’s not even about saving lives, it’s all about the NHS. 
All your ‘passport’ does is prove  you’ve been double jabbed, and that’s it; it doesn’t, and was never designed to, prove you haven’t got Covid. 

[oowee]

22 minutes ago, Scully said:

It’s about stopping the virus from hospitalising numbers in quantities big enough to overwhelm the NHS. 
It’s not about stopping us getting the virus, it’s not about stopping us travelling, it’s not even about saving lives, it’s all about the NHS. 
All your ‘passport’ does is prove  you’ve been double jabbed, and that’s it; it doesn’t, and was never designed to, prove you haven’t got Covid. 

^^^^^ This. More vaccinated adults will get covid than unvacinated ones in the UK as most adults are vaccinated. 

[serrac]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

It’s about stopping the virus from hospitalising numbers in quantities big enough to overwhelm the NHS. 
It’s not about stopping us getting the virus, it’s not about stopping us travelling, it’s not even about saving lives, it’s all about the NHS. 
All your ‘passport’ does is prove  you’ve been double jabbed, and that’s it; it doesn’t, and was never designed to, prove you haven’t got Covid. 

If this is the case, why should it ever be necessary to prove that one has had the vaccine to access any public area or service?
Why would RyanAir or the operator of your local pub, restaurant or hip nightclub care whether you are nominally less likely to be a burden to the NHS?

[Vince Green]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

It’s about stopping the virus from hospitalising numbers in quantities big enough to overwhelm the NHS. 
It’s not about stopping us getting the virus, it’s not about stopping us travelling, it’s not even about saving lives, it’s all about the NHS. 
All your ‘passport’ does is prove  you’ve been double jabbed, and that’s it; it doesn’t, and was never designed to, prove you haven’t got Covid. 

How nice of all those countries all over the world being worried about our NHS by insisting on covid passports. Very thoughtful of them

Edited July 29, 2021 by Vince Green

[Scully]

50 minutes ago, serrac said:

If this is the case, why should it ever be necessary to prove that one has had the vaccine to access any public area or service?
Why would RyanAir or the operator of your local pub, restaurant or hip nightclub care whether you are nominally less likely to be a burden to the NHS?

Ah, with you, my apologies, I’m obviously getting my threads mixed up! 
To answer your question however, Ryan Air or your average club owner probably couldn’t care less about the NHS. Saying that, spreading the virus is obviously bad for business, and whether it’s our own government or foreign governments insisting you have a Covid passport, businesses like Ryan Air or your average nightclubs ( which have just reopened and were among the last hospitality businesses to do so ) will toe the line if they want to remain in business. 

49 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

How nice of all those countries all over the world being worried about our NHS. Very thoughtful of them

🙂I refer you to the reply above. 
Edited to add: Anyone who thinks either the vaccine or a passport is a guarantee of a clean bill of health, is clearly bonkers! 🙂

Edited July 29, 2021 by Scully

[Vince Green]

45 minutes ago, serrac said:

If this is the case, why should it ever be necessary to prove that one has had the vaccine to access any public area or service?
Why would RyanAir or the operator of your local pub, restaurant or hip nightclub care whether you are nominally less likely to be a burden to the NHS?

All Ryan Air or the owner of your local pub wants is a way to get back to something approaching pre covid levels of business. Thats not unreasonable, in fact in the long term its absolutely essencial.

Thats why instead of being some sort of half hearted joke, not really being taken seriously A covid pass should be receiving a huge amount of development cash

It wont be perfect, nothing is perfect but this virus is not going away and we are going to have to live with it for the rest of our lives. We need a swipe card or a tap card that we use everywhere we go

Most businesses will just go bust if we don't

[Vince Green]

22 minutes ago, Scully said:

: Anyone who thinks either the vaccine or a passport is a guarantee of a clean bill of health, is clearly bonkers! 🙂

Nobody said that it would be, but it does prove that you have, at least, been vaccinated which is about as good as we can get at the moment. Not perfect but its a start and hopefully can be refined in time.

Lets build on what we can achieve rather than just dismissing it as bonkers and doing nothing.

Because we are not going to get out of this without a recovery plan. We are not going to just wake up one morning and find its gone. This is going to be with us for the rest of our lives certainly and the lives of our kids for many years to come

[udderlyoffroad]

9 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

We are not going to just wake up one morning and find its gone. This is going to be with us for the rest of our lives certainly and the lives of our kids for many years to come

Agreed, buuuut....

32 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

We need a swipe card or a tap card that we use everywhere we go

No thanks, nu-uh, not ever.

Even if we ignore for civil liberties aspect for a minute; the virus is airborne.  All we will do is generate a data mountain with the virus circulating freely between hosts, some of whom are less viable (vaccinated or antigens) and some more.  Your proposal will leave the virus freer than its hosts.

As some wag on Twitter has oversimplified it: If the vaccine works*, what's the point of vax passports, if the vaccine doesn't work, what's the point of vax passports?

The vaccine was always going to be, not as some would wish to believe, a silver bullet, one-and-done type affair.  But rather, the first salvo in a biological arms race.  Much like the flu jab, there'd be a new variation on it every year, and the vulnerable would be vaccinated.  Not some kind of 'Faucian'** dystopia where you're either in the cult or not.

*Works in this case means: prevents hospitalisation.

**Whittyian in the UK?

[vmaxphil]

Downloaded the passport on the phone last night to see what's it all about, apparently you have to renew it every 30 days, so expect queues outside supermarkets as people renew their passport they forgot 

[udderlyoffroad]

6 hours ago, vmaxphil said:

so expect queues outside supermarkets as people renew their passport they forgot 

Indeed, it's going to be even less pleasant working in retail than last year.

One question I do have though, and I mean this sincerely, to all those in favour of vax passports: Just what problem will these solve?

Leave aside the moral issues about civil liberties.  Or the technical issues surrounding implementation, or the legal/data protection issues.

What problem are we trying to tackle here? 

Because I haven't heard an explanation from government on this, perhaps someone in favour can point me in the right direction?

[timps]

46 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Indeed, it's going to be even less pleasant working in retail than last year.

One question I do have though, and I mean this sincerely, to all those in favour of vax passports: Just what problem will these solve?

Leave aside the moral issues about civil liberties.  Or the technical issues surrounding implementation, or the legal/data protection issues.

What problem are we trying to tackle here? 

Because I haven't heard an explanation from government on this, perhaps someone in favour can point me in the right direction?

I’m not in favour of vaccine passports but if the choice is something remaining closed / disrupted because of social distancing regulations or open with no disruption but you just have to show a vaccine passport then I’ll take the lesser of the two evils.

The reason it is even an issue is because vaccines are only effective if enough people in a given area have them, so it is trying to encourage people to have them rather than out and out forcing them.

I know a person who isn’t an anti vaxxer and believes they work, but for some reason he won’t have it, however he is a mad football fan and when asked if push came to shove and he is force which is it, giving up his premiership season ticket or having the vaccine.

Without hesitation it’s having the vaccine.

That answers in my mind what some in the government are trying to achieve by suggesting it, but they will never admit to that.  

[Rewulf]

55 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

One question I do have though, and I mean this sincerely, to all those in favour of vax passports: Just what problem will these solve?

The answer below is err , the answer to that very valid question...

 

5 minutes ago, timps said:

I’m not in favour of vaccine passports but if the choice is something remaining closed / disrupted because of social distancing regulations or open with no disruption but you just have to show a vaccine passport then I’ll take the lesser of the two evils.

The reason it is even an issue is because vaccines are only effective if enough people in a given area have them, so it is trying to encourage people to have them rather than out and out forcing them.

I know a person who isn’t an anti vaxxer and believes they work, but for some reason he won’t have it, however he is a mad football fan and when asked if push came to shove and he is force which is it, giving up his premiership season ticket or having the vaccine.

Without hesitation it’s having the vaccine.

That answers in my mind what some in the government are trying to achieve by suggesting it, but they will never admit to that.  

FORCING someone to have a vaccine was always going to be a non starter.
Questions like 'What level of force?' Are we to hold them down and jab them ?

A better word for it , is coercion , we shall 'make' them have it , by making (normal) life as you know it impossible... 'Sorry Sir , no access to this area without your vax pass'
This is perfectly acceptable to some, it certainly isnt to me, as its the slippery downward slope to a society you wont like if you enjoy freedom.

Ill say this as I don my tin foil helmet, covid is a very convenient means to an end, if that end means a totalitarian (one world) government.
It may not be the endgame yet, but I rather see it as the test phase of a bigger pandemic, and a means of softening us up for what is to come ?

As udderly points out , the vax, and its associated consequences are an ID pass in disguise , dressed up as a necessity that never was, a convenient  answer to a disease that came from 'nowhere'
Im genuinely quite worried for how this may affect my childrens futures.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Very interesting.

[Scully]

18 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Nobody said that it would be, but it does prove that you have, at least, been vaccinated which is about as good as we can get at the moment. Not perfect but its a start and hopefully can be refined in time.

Lets build on what we can achieve rather than just dismissing it as bonkers and doing nothing.

Because we are not going to get out of this without a recovery plan. We are not going to just wake up one morning and find its gone. This is going to be with us for the rest of our lives certainly and the lives of our kids for many years to come

I haven’t suggested doing nothing, nor dismissed ‘building on achievements’ as bonkers. The only thing I dismiss as bonkers is the use of the app, which isn’t achieving much apart from chaos, and those who believe the vaccine will prevent them from being infected. 

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Ill say this as I don my tin foil helmet, covid is a very convenient means to an end, if that end means a totalitarian (one world) government.
It may not be the endgame yet, but I rather see it as the test phase of a bigger pandemic, and a means of softening us up for what is to come ?

As udderly points out , the vax, and its associated consequences are an ID pass in disguise , dressed up as a necessity that never was, a convenient  answer to a disease that came from 'nowhere'
Im genuinely quite worried for how this may affect my childrens futures.

If those now in power wanted a one world government then why did they try so hard for Brexit?  I don’t see those that are in power over here now working so hard to hand power back away from themselves to a central  bureaucracy again.

The problem we have is 24hour news programs, they want to sell a story hence the narrative which seems to sell and seems to be written by Private James Frazer no matter what side of the political fence they sit on.

As for the children they will fair just the same as all the other children that have survived all the other various pandemics that appeared from nowhere throughout history.

While rare, pandemics have happened before and governments will always try and subjugate its population so it’s nothing new.

I’m off to the pub tonight and I don’t have to check in, show a passport or socially distance so that’s probably  why I’m not overly worried about the illuminati, lizard overlords or world domination theory’s.

It’s just a pandemic that has been handled…. well / best that could be expected  / dreadful … delete as appropriate to your experience.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by timps