HSE lead ammo proposals - FAQs and updates

[Poor Shot]

On 13/05/2022 at 19:54, Fellside said:

I think sadly we are all fiddling while Rome burns. And it is not changes in metal types for shot manufacturing, legal or financial threats…..or indeed any of the common woes we all discuss endlessly, which will see the demise of shooting. 

I’m afraid the biggest single threat to all forms of field sports is its ageing participants and lack of youth interest. While there are of course exceptions, this powerful trend can not be denied. I do a lot of fishing too - and if you look at the average trout fishing comp’ on a local lake I sometimes fish, the team photos look like an outing from an old folks home, and there aren’t many teams left either. It’s the same in a lot of shooting syndicates too of course. 

I know that some PW contributors have made great efforts in helping youngsters to get started. Full marks! However, we need a seriously well coordinated effort from the org’s, country estates, RFDs, clay grounds and all, to really turn this situation around!!! What I generally find, is that there are plenty of willing youngsters if you offer them a chance, but they (or more often their parents) don’t have any knowledge or confidence in gaining access …so they don’t….and that’s a great shame.

Young-ish shot, literally could not find a place on a local game shooting syndicate here.

My saving grace was a last minute space opening up on a small syndicate I did some beating on last year. Average age on that syndicate is probably mid 30's. Probably because they aren't charging £2k+ for 10 35 bird days and shoot Saturdays. 

If shoots want to attract a young membership then they have to realise that the young guns won't have £2k+ to pay the shoot owners wife to make bacon butties for lunch and will likely be working 40+ hours a week to keep a roof over the families heads.

Game shooting is a rich man's sport and if us 'poor' people want to remain in the sport then we'll (syndicate committees and guns alike) need to adapt.

[Vince Green]

7 hours ago, Ian willetts said:

Well up here in County Durham there’s a disused lead mine up at kilop it’s now and has been for many years a visitor centre and museum where you can go down to the face where lead was mined work that one out talking my mate who is a farmer about the lead ban and he said you can test land where ever you go and there are traces of lead he was going mad about it being a bow down to Europe yet again 

In Hertfordshire at a place called Cupid Green a dairy farmer built a clay layout on his farm. 

It was all shot over the fields where his cattle grazed and it was let out to different groups and clubs. We rented it one Sunday a month but it got a lot of use over many many years from all the clubs that booked it.

The milk marketing board was always aware of the shooting and used to do extra monitoring of the farm's milk for lead

They never found an elevated trace of lead in the milk.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Vince Green

[London Best]

5 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

 

If shoots want to attract a young membership then they have to realise that the young guns won't have £2k+ to pay the shoot owners wife to make bacon butties for lunch and will likely be working 40+ hours a week to keep a roof over the families heads.

It was always like that. Nothing has changed.

[Poor Shot]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

It was always like that. Nothing has changed.

I follow the 'syndicate places available' group on Facebook to get a heads up on any local openings on DIY syndicates. There was a good ratio of posted ads that had shooting every other Thursday or some such. A lot of comments on those adds saying they were unsuitable but otherwise perfect only due to the weekday shooting. No doubt the places were filled but it's unlikely that they would have been filled by anyone that wasn't of retirement age.

Also got in touch with the owner of a prospective syndicate shoot that was charging £4000+ (plus whatever the cost of birds and feed would settle to as costings hadn't yet been finalised) for 10 days shooting based on 50-60 bird days (very poor retention rate based on 1500 pheasant and 400 partridge released) but the owner assured me it was a good shoot because his wife personally made butties for the guns at midday. Though was no work parties required but then again, no pest control permitted. Again, I'm sure the places available were filled but it probably wasn't anyone who had a family to provide for.  Perhaps that's the going rate but it was a bit rich for my tastes.

[Jim Neal]

1 hour ago, Poor Shot said:

10 days shooting based on 50-60 bird days (very poor retention rate based on 1500 pheasant and 400 partridge released)

That's a return in the region of 30% which would be a roaring success for a DIY syndicate releasing ex-layers.  If they're full or part-time keepered releasing poults I'd be seriously investigating where the problem lies if I ran that shoot!

Not sure it justifies £70 plus per bird (presuming 10 guns in syndicate) if you average it out!

Some people are just on the make, and that's the problem with game shooting.  The temptation of greed overpowers many people.

We are somewhat lucky/privileged in our syndicate to have what we've got for the price it costs us, which I fully recognise..... and bearing in mind, without being big-headed, I'm amongst some of the better shots in the syndicate..... my shooting worked out at less than £10 a bird last year.

Keep looking until you find what fits you.

[London Best]

9 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

I follow the 'syndicate places available' group on Facebook to get a heads up on any local openings on DIY syndicates. There was a good ratio of posted ads that had shooting every other Thursday or some such. A lot of comments on those adds saying they were unsuitable but otherwise perfect only due to the weekday shooting. No doubt the places were filled but it's unlikely that they would have been filled by anyone that wasn't of retirement age

When I was working full time I used to take a day’s holiday for a day’s shooting. Or, if I was on afternoon shift, half a day’s holiday and go in to work for a half shift. Tiring, but needs must.

[Rob85]

So of this is enacted exactly as it stands the only shooting that may remain affordable for most will be rough shooting, wildfowling, decoyed pigeons.

The eye watering price of non toxic ammo and its poor performance will reduce airguns and rimfires to being completely useless.

It will be basically shotguns only unless you use a deer calibre centrefire even for shooting foxes with copper monolith bullets.

Why can they not go for a common sense approach where they could enforce use of non toxic IF the animal is to enter the commercial food chain. Why can they not leave target shooting, pest shooting and shooting for personal consumption alone. I mean we are still allowed to drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes.... both arguably more harmful for the human body than the odd piece of lead shot. The last metre or so of rising main into my taps....the very water I drink runs through lead but I don't see anyone in a big rush to tell me I shouldn't drink the water.

But in reality common sense would say that lead shot/bullets should be left well alone

[old man]

23 hours ago, Vince Green said:

It's extremely interesting that these proposals are coming from the Health and Safety executive.

Their remit covers health and safety in the workplace. 

It doesn't cover the Environment or Food Standards. Both of which are separate Agencies.

Very strange, what's it to them?

Agreed,

I did have another thought or two.

Firstly, did they get tipped off in advance about the  planned reduction in staff numbers?

Secondly, had they realised that th need for their role had diminished along with the loss of our industry?

 

[old man]

1 hour ago, Rob85 said:

So of this is enacted exactly as it stands the only shooting that may remain affordable for most will be rough shooting, wildfowling, decoyed pigeons.

The eye watering price of non toxic ammo and its poor performance will reduce airguns and rimfires to being completely useless.

It will be basically shotguns only unless you use a deer calibre centrefire even for shooting foxes with copper monolith bullets.

Why can they not go for a common sense approach where they could enforce use of non toxic IF the animal is to enter the commercial food chain. Why can they not leave target shooting, pest shooting and shooting for personal consumption alone. I mean we are still allowed to drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes.... both arguably more harmful for the human body than the odd piece of lead shot. The last metre or so of rising main into my taps....the very water I drink runs through lead but I don't see anyone in a big rush to tell me I shouldn't drink the water.

But in reality common sense would say that lead shot/bullets should be left well alone

More direct money into the pot from booze and fags so best left alone to keep coming in?

[8 shot]

11 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Not sure it justifies £70 plus per bird (presuming 10 guns in syndicate) if you average it out!

Might be cheap, looking at the price of wheat today, futures price for next year looks better or worse depending on which side of the fence your sitting 

[Fellside]

Wheat is only one part of the equation. Depending on who’s crystal ball you’re looking in to, it could be £275/tonne or £350/tonne at UK harvest this year. That’s not a deal breaker for pheasant shooting, as it only increases overall shoot running costs by about 20% - 25%. The real problem will be the lack of poults. The UK is only 30% self sufficient in poults and the bird flu knee-jerk from DEFRA has cut off 70% of our European eggs and chicks overnight. This when bird flu is already widespread in the UK….?!

Stable door closed, horse bolted etc. DEFRA should have had an army of vets random sampling a percentage of livestock - checking / screening for disease. Instead we have catastrophic damage to UK rural livelihoods. Where is the ministry of common sense in this…..??!! Rant ends. 

[Old farrier]

Just for a bit of information for some with fixed choke guns as it seems common to say open out your chokes for steel shot 

to have both barrels multi choked £370 plus the chokes approx £50 to £100 each 

chokes opening £90 a barrel 

re proof for steel £30 a barrel 

these are approximate and as best I can remember from a conversation yesterday 

Now a question for those better informed than myself when they proof a gun for steel do they use a cartridge loaded with steel shot? 
Or is it just a lot of powder and wading to get a set pressure? 

 

[Old farrier]

On 14/05/2022 at 13:22, PeterHenry said:

 

Sorry, I should added - the pad is thin enough so that I haven't noticed any need to have my guns refitted. Also, the Lylvale 30g '5' earthwads are very light on recoil as it is - no need for a recoil pad with them, and certainly no concern of a broken stock.

That’s good to hear thank you for your reply 👍

 

 

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Just for a bit of information for some with fixed choke guns as it seems common to say open out your chokes for steel shot 

to have both barrels multi choked £370 plus the chokes approx £50 to £100 each 

chokes opening £90 a barrel 

re proof for steel £30 a barrel 

these are approximate and as best I can remember from a conversation yesterday 

Now a question for those better informed than myself when they proof a gun for steel do they use a cartridge loaded with steel shot? 
Or is it just a lot of powder and wading to get a set pressure? 

 

Sounds like Teague Choke prices, had my Miroku High Pheasant multi choked last year, from memory the £30 extra was for HP Steel Proof which I had done. I may be wrong but they discharge an overloaded cartridge in each barrel then it’s stamped with the appropriate markings , Fleur de Leys etc. Or you get a box of scrap back if it failed. I have to say they did a first class job on my gun took about 3 to 4 weeks though 

[Old farrier]

13 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Sounds like Teague Choke prices, had my Miroku High Pheasant multi choked last year, from memory the £30 extra was for HP Steel Proof which I had done. I may be wrong but they discharge an overloaded cartridge in each barrel then it’s stamped with the appropriate markings , Fleur de Leys etc. Or you get a box of scrap back if it failed. I have to say they did a first class job on my gun took about 3 to 4 weeks though 

Wasn’t sure if I was allowed to mention firm’s names glad you’re pleased with the job 

is the overloaded cartridge loaded with lead or steel 

im asking as I see it + 10% powder and shot would increase the cartridges length beyond chamber length or do they use a extra strong powder or is it a special shape cartridge 

sorry to ask but I’m unsure how it works 

[Smudger687]

32 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Wasn’t sure if I was allowed to mention firm’s names glad you’re pleased with the job 

is the overloaded cartridge loaded with lead or steel 

im asking as I see it + 10% powder and shot would increase the cartridges length beyond chamber length or do they use a extra strong powder or is it a special shape cartridge 

sorry to ask but I’m unsure how it works 

Doesn't matter whether loaded with lead or steel - HP proofing just means that the gun has survived a firing of a cartridge that achieves (on average) a maximum pressure of 1320 bar. 

Pressure can be increased dramatically just by removing the amount of compressible filler. Powder could be changed to one that's faster burning etc. Most of the average 2.75 inch lead shell is made up of compressible material (think the fibre wad or the crush section of a plaswad), so there's plenty of scope to increase powder/shot whilst staying within the case length requirements. 

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Smudger687 said:

Doesn't matter whether loaded with lead or steel - HP proofing just means that the gun has survived a firing of a cartridge that achieves (on average) a maximum pressure of 1320 bar. 

Pressure can be increased dramatically just by removing the amount of compressible filler. Powder could be changed to one that's faster burning etc. Most of the average 2.75 inch lead shell is made up of compressible material (think the fibre wad or the crush section of a plaswad), so there's plenty of scope to increase powder/shot whilst staying within the case length requirements. 

Thank you for the information 👍

 

[Vince Green]

9 hours ago, Rob85 said:

So of this is enacted exactly as it stands the only shooting that may remain affordable for most will be rough shooting, wildfowling, decoyed pigeons.

The eye watering price of non toxic ammo and its poor performance will reduce airguns and rimfires to being completely useless.

It will be basically shotguns only unless you use a deer calibre centrefire even for shooting foxes with copper monolith bullets.

Why can they not go for a common sense approach where they could enforce use of non toxic IF the animal is to enter the commercial food chain. Why can they not leave target shooting, pest shooting and shooting for personal consumption alone. I mean we are still allowed to drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes.... both arguably more harmful for the human body than the odd piece of lead shot. The last metre or so of rising main into my taps....the very water I drink runs through lead but I don't see anyone in a big rush to tell me I shouldn't drink the water.

But in reality common sense would say that leaadsd shot/bullets should be left well alone

They would do more for environment by banning plastic wads and cartridges.

But as I keep saying to anybody who will listen

The environment is NOT the job of the HSE

Why are they sticking their noses in when it's none of their business?

[wymberley]

This doesn't affect me and consequently I wasn't paying full attention, but I think that a HP steel proof test includes an additional pressure reading further down the barrel. No doubt someone can tidy this up as it were.

[Newbie to this]

14 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

But as I keep saying to anybody who will listen

The environment is NOT the job of the HSE

Why are they sticking their noses in when it's none of their business?

Maybe @Conor O'Gorman has heard you!

[222mark]

If lead is as bad as they make out why is the scrap value so high. It must be getting used for something. Or am i over thinking it.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, 222mark said:

If lead is as bad as they make out why is the scrap value so high. It must be getting used for something. Or am i over thinking it.

Probably being fired all over the Ukrainian countryside 

or for building secret fall out shelters 🤔

[clangerman]

36 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Why are they sticking their noses in when it's none of their business?

part of the plan think idea was fed to basc (fall guy) as way to make game shooting look more acceptable green slash putting house in order hse steps in once basc is committed end result costs finish of so many ending private ownership is a doodle and no gov blame or you could believe our OWN side shooting is safe in gumps hands cue hilarious laughter! 

[Scully]

On 13/05/2022 at 21:32, Weihrauch17 said:

 

I am, shoot fees have nearly doubled this year and if it stays the same it will be my last season as I can't justify the cost.

Ours haven’t doubled, but they rise every year, unlike my wages, and I’m just an average working bloke. 
The people who shoot serious amounts of game…..and there are plenty of them…..aren’t the sort to be effected by its cost.

Like I said, there are many things which may end driven game shooting, but its cost isn’t up there with them. 

[Scully]

On 13/05/2022 at 18:44, clangerman said:

as I made no claim of a monetary cost to game shooting they can definitely afford it mate 

Game shootings biggest support doesn’t come from ‘grass roots boys’, it comes from those with enough money to support it.
Commercial game shooting is big business, which attracts huge amounts of money. If it didn’t no one would bother to rear the birds. They aren’t reared with a couple of ‘grass roots boys’ pootling around the hedgerows in mind.