NHS

[steve_b_wales]

74 years ago today, the NHS was founded. Now sadly abused by many 1000's!

[Lloyd90]

Aneurin Bevan, a great statue of him stands still in Caerphilly. 
 

One of his 4 founding principles was that the service was used responsibly! 
 

I wonder what he would make of it today?! 
 

I imagine back in his day they would of had no concerns about telling time wasters and messers to ****** off! 
 

Everyone’s too scared to do that these days whilst someone harps on about “duty of care” … 

 

NHS should introduce a duty of self responsibility. 

 

[steve_b_wales]

23 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Aneurin Bevan, a great statue of him stands still in Caerphilly. 
 

One of his 4 founding principles was that the service was used responsibly! 
 

I wonder what he would make of it today?! 
 

I imagine back in his day they would of had no concerns about telling time wasters and messers to ****** off! 
 

Everyone’s too scared to do that these days whilst someone harps on about “duty of care” … 

 

NHS should introduce a duty of self responsibility. 

 

[bruno22rf]

Having just come out of Hospital (cardiac ward) I have had the honour of watching the nurses (mainly Indian, Asian and Oriental) caring for end of life patients. During my stay 3 people passed away in my section of the ward of 6 patients. The devotion and care that these nurses display is truly humbling to witness and has changed my opinion of the NHS, it can and does get it right more often than not and we should support it in any way that we can so I'm hoping this thread does not become another NHS beating stick. The food is still terrible though so there are areas for considerable improvement 😃. 

[steve_b_wales]

I have 'seen' the NHS from both sides, working briefly for them and having been cared for a few times by them. I have the utmost respect for all who dedicate themselves to care for other's, and despise the people who abuse this system so badly.

[old'un]

the NHS is a shambles, too many chiefs and not enough Indians, we have not had good experiences over the last six months.

[oowee]

The expectation from the service does not match the resources made available. We want too much for too little. Pay is desperate, but for me the biggest problem is trying to provide too much. More limits would provide better overall outcomes. 

Shifting resources towards prevention rather than treatment would be a good start. 

[Walker570]

Too many managers and box tickers and money will not solve the problem. The ward level staff are superb, recently my wife had a small operation and a senior nurse was diverted to fill in a multipage questionaire. We asked about it and she admitted she would be far happier treating and looking after patients.  That multi pag questionaire contained questions like...do you drink?...my wife inisisted and winessed she wrote.... like a fish.. how many uselss idots are then going to go through those pages to no purpose.   Get rid of the non jobs and put THAT money into treatment.  

How do you prevent idiots sucking on those foul smelling dummies or fags for a start. How do you prevent the severe obesity in our population ?  I see young women in particular  late 20s early 30s wobbling down the high street grossly overweight . Explain. how you solve that.  What resources would do that?

 

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

the NHS is a shambles, too many chiefs and not enough Indians, we have not had good experiences over the last six months.

Yes. It has become a sacred cow of too many. I lived and worked in France. Live from 2002 to 2005 and 2015 to 2019 and worked there from 1999 to 2020. The NHS is lethal in fact. It kills people. I seen it as a patient and with friends of the family and with clients who have had to use it in an emergency or as routine over those twenty plus years.

In 2016 had a bowel scare that I saw my UK GP about. Take this stomach medicine for two weeks. That didn't work. So the answer was then take this other stomach medicine for two weeks. That didn't work. So it was then that they'd book me for a colonoscopy. Six weeks later a telephone consultation with a bowel specialist. Six months after than an colonoscopy. It was diverticulosis in fact.

Whilst in France in 2016 (before the telephone consultation even) my wife in the morning went to see her French GP. I told him about my bowel scare. His answer was this. "If you've had nothing to eat I'll book you for an colonosocopy for tomorrow. If you've had something to eat I'll book it for the day after tomorrow. It'll cost you 125 Euro.

In France they test for the possible worst case at first appearance and they detect cancer early so can treat it as soon as possible. In the UK it's try X, Y, Z as it's cheaper and let's hope it isn't cancer because if it is it'll be six months on and usually by then far more difficult to treat. The cancer doesn't "stop" and wait for that six months! So you may die but never mind as "Britain's NHS is the best in the World".

Edited July 5, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Scully]

27 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

 

How do you prevent idiots sucking on those foul smelling dummies or fags for a start. How do you prevent the severe obesity in our population ?  I see young women in particular  late 20s early 30s wobbling down the high street grossly overweight . Explain. how you solve that.  What resources would do that?

 

I’m not really following your train of thought here. Are you suggesting it’s down to the NHS to prevent the above? 
All anyone or any organisation or government can do is advise; it’s nothing resources can solve. It’s not up to anyone to tell others how to lead their lives. As long as they’re not doing anything illegal they should be allowed to make their own choices. 
I’ve no doubt it’s only a matter of time,  but currently being obese, smoking or generally unhealthy isn’t illegal. 

[Jaymo]

3 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Yes. It has become a sacred cow of too many. I lived and worked in France. Live from 2002 to 2005 and 2015 to 2019 and worked there from 1999 to 2020. The NHS is lethal in fact. It kills people.

In 2016 had a bowel scare that I saw my UK GP about. Take this stomach medicine for two weeks. That didn't work. So the answer was then take this other stomach medicine for two weeks. That didn't work. So it was then that they'd book me for a colonoscopy. Six weeks later a telephone consultation with a bowel specialist. Six months after than an colonoscopy. It was diverticulosis in fact.

Whilst in France in 2016 (before the telephone consultation even) my wife in the morning went to see her French GP. I told him about my bowel scare. His answer was this. "If you've had nothing to eat I'll book you for an endosocopy for tomorrow. If you've had something to eat I'll book it for the day after tomorrow. It'll cost you 125 Euro.

In France they test for the worst case at first appearance and they detect cancer early. In the UK it's try X, Y, Z as it's cheaper and let's hope it isn't cancer because if it is it'll be six months on and usually by then far more difficult to treat. So you may die but never mind as "Britain's NHS is the best in the World".

That was our experiences too. 
Of course the diff is paying into a ‘Assurance mutuel’ which is the stumbling block over here as most people alive seem to only have known the NHS as free and would not be best pleased to have to buy their own insurance. 
But as you know, it’s not as straight forward as that over there and many things are indeed subsidised too. 
 

My Wife and I had some great experiences there, without waiting months.

 

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Too many managers and box tickers and money will not solve the problem. The ward level staff are superb, recently my wife had a small operation and a senior nurse was diverted to fill in a multipage questionaire. We asked about it and she admitted she would be far happier treating and looking after patients.  That multi pag questionaire contained questions like...do you drink?...my wife inisisted and winessed she wrote.... like a fish.. how many uselss idots are then going to go through those pages to no purpose.   Get rid of the non jobs and put THAT money into treatment.  

How do you prevent idiots sucking on those foul smelling dummies or fags for a start. How do you prevent the severe obesity in our population ?  I see young women in particular  late 20s early 30s wobbling down the high street grossly overweight . Explain. how you solve that.  What resources would do that?

 

SOME ward level staff are superb. 

Some are bang average, and some are well below average, lazy or useless. 

The NHS is no different from any other organisation. 
 

The scale of it is enormous, and the idea you could cut away a load of managers from the structures and expect them to run efficiently is dreaming. 
 

Part of the problem is that the organisation is so massive, the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing. 
 

If you took away all the middle managers that do all the organising, shift rota’s, budgeting, appointments, long term planning etc who’s going to do all that? 
 

The type and complexity of work being undertaken by the NHS is massively advanced from when it was first introduced. 

 

Many years ago nurses would be delivering basic care, cleaning people and giving them food and fluids. 
Lots of this type of work is undertaken by lower paid health care / nursing assistants now. 
 

Nurses these days in specialist roles will do procedures that historically only Doctors would do, or procedures that wouldn’t even exist in the past. 
 

The idea you could cut away loads of managers and staff overseeing wards and they would just run themselves may have worked many years ago when the care was so incredibly basic but those days are long gone. 
 

The NHS is a money pit, even if you doubled the funding it would have issues. 
 

The issues are the same in Social Services and lots of other public sector services, if you increase the funding you just change the thresholds and the same issues carry on. 
 

 

Public services cannot be run like the private sector. When we increase efficiency in the private sector the company increases their profits. When we increase the amount of people we treat or support in public services we increase our expenditure. 

[enfieldspares]

19 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

The NHS is a money pit, even if you doubled the funding it would have issues. 

The "gammons" of course have the answer. They would have us "bring back Matron" and "starched uniforms" and all then will be well. The French have neither Matron nor starched uniforms but they do a far far better job at less than 1% extra GDP cost.

This from the World Bank:

France 11.06 %

UK        10.15%

In 2020 UK figures hand increased according to the UK ONS

Total current healthcare expenditure in the UK in 2020 was £257.6 billion, equating to £3,840 per person.

Total current healthcare expenditure in the UK accounted for 12.0% of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2020, compared with 9.9% in 2019.

2 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Of course the diff is paying into a ‘Assurance mutuel’ which is the stumbling block over here as most people alive seem to only have known the NHS as free and would not be best pleased to have to buy their own insurance. 

 

Yes. 20 Euro to see a GP. Which your Mutuel or Carte Vital than reimburses But there's never any missed appointments! As you say some care...rheumatoid arthritis for example is free. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Walker570]

Yep, BUT niether of you have told me how the system could be improved.      More sitting round tables with glasses of mineral water ?

[oowee]

Start with saying no. Switch to prevention focus rather than treatment. Limit life time benefits. 

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Yep, BUT niether of you have told me how the system could be improved.      More sitting round tables with glasses of mineral water ?

Make people pay a nominal charge to see their GP would be a start and give them in return for National Insurance of Income Tax being paid in the previous tax year or the current tax year a simple plastic card valid for that tax year. If no NI or income tax paid then the care is restricted to emergency care or needed surgery or illness care.

And no boob jobs, fertility treatment, tattoo removal and etc., etc. on the NHS.

[mel b3]

3 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Make people pay a nominal charge to see their GP would be a start and give them in return for National Insurance of Income Tax being paid in the previous tax year or the current tax year a simple plastic card valid for that tax year. If no NI or income tax paid then the care is restricted to emergency care or needed surgery or illness care.

And no boob jobs, fertility treatment, tattoo removal and etc., etc. on the NHS.

No boob jobs .  You need to rethink your list sir .😁

Edited July 6, 2022 by mel b3

[enfieldspares]

The NHS was set up so that people need no longer fear the "price" of having an accident, being injured at work, falling ill, getting cancer, pneumonia, TB and all the other diseases that kill or inflict incapacity or harm a person's quality of life or ability to earn a living through that medical episode. It was sold in 1948 that it'd actually eventually cost next to nothing and year on year cost LESS as people would no longer get ill, die, stop being able to work. And yet year on year it actually has always cost more.

It was a noble idea. But so was climbing Everest, single handedly sailing around the world or landing on the moon. Noble ideas are fine. But they are not an efficient, effective and affordable healthcare system. And neither is the NHS. People think it's "free". It isn't. We pay for it and pay for it in tax to such an extent that everything else the country requires such as adequate defence, good policing, affordable petrol and diesel is sacrificed.

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Cosmicblue]

23 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

Having just come out of Hospital (cardiac ward) I have had the honour of watching the nurses (mainly Indian, Asian and Oriental) caring for end of life patients. During my stay 3 people passed away in my section of the ward of 6 patients. The devotion and care that these nurses display is truly humbling to witness and has changed my opinion of the NHS, it can and does get it right more often than not and we should support it in any way that we can so I'm hoping this thread does not become another NHS beating stick. The food is still terrible though so there are areas for considerable improvement 😃. 

A very close friend of mine is an cardio-thoracic ITU nurse, qualified in 2018 and is a Band 5, native Chinese lady holding UK citizenship and I'll pass on your observations, thanks. She and her colleagues go above and beyond every single day, working straight 12 hour shifts, at the end of each shift she'll unwind and recount the events as a de-stress (without names), mostly the patients are unconscious, clinging to life by a thread kept alive by technology and minute-by-minute care.   ITU nurses are authorised to administer 1st line drugs without waiting for a doctor to sign off, sometimes every second counts and they lose very few patients as a result.  Recently she was looking after a chap who was at end-of-life but conscious and knew it was just a matter of time - she asked the patient if he wanted anything. "a cold coke" was the reply.  She went off the unit and bought the drink  with her own money, returned and provided something special, a few sips to happiness - the nurses call it compassionate care.  The gentleman passed away later that day. It is, as you say, truly humbling.

I work in IT and make zero difference to anyone's life and get paid a ridiculous amount of money for doing it - I pay more tax each month than she takes home, even with some bank shifts on top - its not right and the balance in the NHS needs to shift towards those actually delivering the care.   A Band 5 nurse (the foot soldiers in the mid blue uniforms with white edges) sit on a salary scale of somewhere between £25 and £31k, a hospital Chief exec will be on around £300k and won't deliver any bed-side care from one year to the next.    

Edited July 6, 2022 by Cosmicblue

[bruno22rf]

4 hours ago, Cosmicblue said:

A very close friend of mine is an cardio-thoracic ITU nurse, qualified in 2018 and is a Band 5, native Chinese lady holding UK citizenship and I'll pass on your observations, thanks. She and her colleagues go above and beyond every single day, working straight 12 hour shifts, at the end of each shift she'll unwind and recount the events as a de-stress (without names), mostly the patients are unconscious, clinging to life by a thread kept alive by technology and minute-by-minute care.   ITU nurses are authorised to administer 1st line drugs without waiting for a doctor to sign off, sometimes every second counts and they lose very few patients as a result.  Recently she was looking after a chap who was at end-of-life but conscious and knew it was just a matter of time - she asked the patient if he wanted anything. "a cold coke" was the reply.  She went off the unit and bought the drink  with her own money, returned and provided something special, a few sips to happiness - the nurses call it compassionate care.  The gentleman passed away later that day. It is, as you say, truly humbling.

I work in IT and make zero difference to anyone's life and get paid a ridiculous amount of money for doing it - I pay more tax each month than she takes home, even with some bank shifts on top - its not right and the balance in the NHS needs to shift towards those actually delivering the care.   A Band 5 nurse (the foot soldiers in the mid blue uniforms with white edges) sit on a salary scale of somewhere between £25 and £31k, a hospital Chief exec will be on around £300k and won't deliver any bed-side care from one year to the next.    

As a fully grown man I feel embarressed to admit that I was often in tears watching them work, 5 days on the ward has cured me of a lifetime of ignorance. 

[discobob]

17 hours ago, Cosmicblue said:

I work in IT and make zero difference to anyone's life and get paid a ridiculous amount of money for doing it - I pay more tax each month than she takes home, even with some bank shifts on top - its not right and the balance in the NHS needs to shift towards those actually delivering the care.   A Band 5 nurse (the foot soldiers in the mid blue uniforms with white edges) sit on a salary scale of somewhere between £25 and £31k, a hospital Chief exec will be on around £300k and won't deliver any bed-side care from one year to the next.    

I to work in IT - Not overly paid (and no pay rise for the past 3 years) - but I am paid a lot more than my Wife who does Care Work alongside her cleaning - I look at it that I am subsidising her work but as you say it isn't right

[Aled]

My parents were before retirement, front line health care workers. Both have stated that investing in education regarding lifestyle choices would save the NHS and indeed the country a lot of money. 

Cheers. Aled 

[Scully]

44 minutes ago, Aled said:

My parents were before retirement, front line health care workers. Both have stated that investing in education regarding lifestyle choices would save the NHS and indeed the country a lot of money. 

Cheers. Aled 

Yes, I quite agree, education is the way to go. After that it has to be down to the individual to make their own lifestyle choices rather than state interference. 
 

[Vince Green]

On 05/07/2022 at 17:31, oowee said:

The expectation from the service does not match the resources made available. We want too much for too little. Pay is desperate, but for me the biggest problem is trying to provide too much. More limits would provide better overall outcomes. 

Shifting resources towards prevention rather than treatment would be a good start. 

Exactly the problem, when do they say enough 

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, discobob said:

I to work in IT - Not overly paid (and no pay rise for the past 3 years) - but I am paid a lot more than my Wife who does Care Work alongside her cleaning - I look at it that I am subsidising her work but as you say it isn't right

Yes but nurses and doctors can earn a lot of money if they know how to work the system. The hospitals are constantly so short of staff that the are forced to offer big bribes to get shifts covered. Now nobody volunteers for overtime until there is a bonus payment being offered.

Its a tough job though, staff shortages also means corners have to be cut and nurses are having to routinely make decisions that should be made by a doctor, but a doctor is not available