What size rawl bolts to fix a cabinet to the wall ?

[Vince Green]

Can't get a reply back from Devon and Cornwall police 

I've got a cabinet just need to fix it?

[Stonepark]

Brick is 100mm wide, normally 75mm Rawl bolts that can fit through the holes pre drilled in the cabinet.

[timps]

Home office guidance states the requirement for size is :- at least 4 fixing holes to take not less than 10mm diameter fastening devices.  With a recommendation of expanding bolts, chemical anchors or toggle bolts  

This guidance is also confirmed in BS7558 which is the British standards for gun cabinets .

For guidance I know GMP will not accept slotted screw head type  fixings only bolts, but your force may differ.  

 

[Stephen-H]

 4 Anchor bolts with a 13mm hex head into the wall with 13 mm hex head coach bolts into the floor is what I've done on my last two cabinets no issues. You can buy the cabinet bolts from ebay 

[Newbie to this]

M10 rawl bolts in mine

Edited August 10, 2022 by Newbie to this

[Scully]

Can’t recall what’s in mine, but it’s just plasterboard, so it’s fixed to the floor also, where all cabinets are fixed to each other. 

[pux]

Just moved house an redone mine. Used M10 Rawl bolts into brick.

[Vince Green]

Thanks everybody

 

[telf]

Get some concrete bolts (12mm springs to mind ) , drill the holes and screw them in , easy to unscrew if required

[Bigbob]

Mine is also in a cupboard with a plasterboard  wall so screwed to the floor but i a small washer holding in a bigger washer on the screws then screwed them in . Must of work because he tried to pull it out the cupboard and it didnt move 

[screamingdead]

I used M10 resin anchors to fix all my cabinets. 

[bottletopbill]

Sure they want 12m  now for cabinets and put sealant around the sides so they cant pry it off. As all the above said make sure it does not  move.

[udderlyoffroad]

14 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Can't get a reply back from Devon and Cornwall police 

Ones that fit the holes in your cabinet and are suitable for the material you're fixing to!

Of course forces make it up as they go along, sorry, uh, interpret the HO manual as they see fit, but I've never known any force go into that level of stipulation.  My force (Avon and Somerset) apparently aren't happy with concrete screws, and insist on expanding anchor bolts ('rawl bolts') but how they'd know without removing them....

Anyway, a quick skim-read of the HO Firearms security handbook gives no requirements for fastener size, other than into suspended wooden flooring (2.11)

Quote

This will also assist when fastening into suspended wooden flooring, as it spreads the load more evenly. In this case, coach screws of at least 3/8" (8mm) diameter and not less than 2.5" (63mm) long will provide a suitable anchorage. Such fixings must of course be made into joists and not simply to the floor boarding.

I couldn't find any reference to what @timps quoted, perhaps you could point us to it?

As @Stonepark said, in normal brick 75mm deep is about your limit

[timps]

7 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Quote

 

I couldn't find any reference to what @timps quoted, perhaps you could point us to it?

 It’s in Cabinets clause 11 page 31

“11 provision of at least 4 fixing holes to take not less than 10mm diameter fastening devices.”

so with cabinets you need 4 holes with fixings devices  of not less than 10 mm diameter 

 

edit to add: GMP now inspect bolt heads, I know one person required to change fixings because of it and my last inspection they made me for the first time remove all my papers off the top shelf to inspect my bolt heads in a cabinet that has been installed and inspected for years.

Edited August 10, 2022 by timps

[udderlyoffroad]

14 hours ago, timps said:

It’s in Cabinets clause 11 page 31

A fair enough, thanks!!  That'll learn me to speed-read a spec manual and make posts on that basis.

Interestingly, it still says under cabinets

Quote

7.1 Cabinets which may be considered to be suitable for the security of firearms, shotguns and ammunition should be expected to provide the resistance equal to:

a) a cabinet manufactured and fitted as certified to comply with BS7558:1992; or

b) a cabinet fabricated to the following:

...

11. Provision of at least 4 fixing holes to take not less than 10mm diameter fastening devices. The holes to be spaced to provide maximum binding of cabinet to structure.

So, it needs to meet the BS spec or do all of the following, presumably lifted straight from the spec, for those of us unable/unwilling to pay BSonline for the spec.

TLDR:  Your force is free to interpret the manual absolutely in any way they wish, and make up provisions.  I personally wouldn't be asking them for what size fastener you need.  Fix the cabinet to your wall with fasteners suitable for the application.  If they object, ask on what basis, and comply if practicable, on the pick-your-battles principle....

[timps]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

So, it needs to meet the BS spec or do all of the following, presumably lifted straight from the spec, for those of us unable/unwilling to pay BSonline for the spec.

BS 7558 doesn’t specify much about the construction of the cabinet but it does mention how many differs a lock should have and the type of fixings needed to be used. So in respect for the fixings yes its lifted off the standard, there is however the added instruction in the standard that  the force required to pull the appropriate fixing bolt through any attachment point provided shall be not less than 2 kN. 

Therefore, to make a cabinet that conforms to BS 7558 means you have to send two identical cabinets off to an independent test laboratory for testing to see if it can withstand a 5 minute attack from common hand-tools.

The tools listed are Club hammer 1.8 kg, Flat cold chisel overall length 200 mm and blade width 25 mm, Jemmy.

The Lab has 5 minutes to inspect then a further 5 minutes to attack, if they can remove it from its mount (if the mount fails rather than the cabinet then this does not count) or gain entry within 5 mins it fails. A second test is then performed by a 2nd person from the lab on a second cabinet for a further 5 min, at any vulnerable point(s) identified in the first test with no prompting during the test.

The reasoning behind an attack test rather than specification on design was because it was demonstrated that a specification which centred only on the design and construction features of a gun cabinet was insufficient to provide adequate resistance to sustained forcible attack. Cabinets made to the most stringent existing design and construction requirements still provided points of weakness which could be breached in less than 1 min by the methods of physical attack described in the standard.

Therefore, for BS 7558 you can build your cabinet to whatever spec you want as long as you take into account the notes listed in section 4 construction (locks, fixings and fixing holes etc.) Send two identical cabinets off to an independent test laboratories for testing. If it then passes the attack test then this design of cabinet conforms to BS 7558 no matter how it is made.

The only issue I foresee with BS 7558 is that laboratory staff are not to a set standard.

Send it to two different labs

lab 1 : both technicians are retirement age and never done a days exercise in their lives.

Lab 2: both technicians are male 25 and play prop forwards at high level.

In those instances the cabinets are not subjected to the same test.

Edited August 11, 2022 by timps

[TIGHTCHOKE]

That is rather out of date with the advent of good cordless grinders.

[timps]

21 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

That is rather out of date with the advent of good cordless grinders.

To be fair to BS 7558 they have always known the limitations of the standard from day one.

It starts off in the introduction of BS 7558 by saying they assume the average potential thief is an opportunist and not a determined criminal specifically seeking to obtain firearms, who in their own words would be difficult to counter effectively by inexpensive means. So, they are not interested in that type of thief as they accept you are never going to stop them without a bank safe/vault and great expense which is why the “reasonably practicable” bit of the legislation to store firearms is there.

If the thief comes with a grinder in hand they accept your guns are gone, but if they just have a basic pry bar or screw driver to get in the house then they hope a BS 7558 cabinet this will deter / stop them.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by timps

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Fair enough, just as long as none of the Chief Constables see it any differently.  

[Kojak_79]

if its a new build and going into breeze blocks use chemical anchors or when you tighten the bolts up the block will give in and crumble. Also my cabinet from machine mart only has 2 wall fixings and passed inspection

[udderlyoffroad]

18 hours ago, timps said:

If the thief comes with a grinder in hand they accept your guns are gone, but if they just have a basic pry bar or screw driver to get in the house then they hope a BS 7558 cabinet this will deter / stop them.

And there's the thing, in 1992 when BS 7558 was issued, cordless grinders weren't really a thing.  Now you can pick a serviceable one up in Lidl when doing your shopping for £30.  Long since in most thieves tool kits.  And they're much quieter than old school corded grinders too.

Fortunately, it appears chief constables are too preoccupied with nicking people for posting memes to Facebook, rather than worrying about burglaries, whether for firearms or not.

[Scully]

In all the countless times I’ve added or moved cabinets, when the FEO has visited, I can’t ever recall a single one even trying to move one let alone hang off one. 
The usual conversation is, ‘ Are they fixed to the wall?’ followed by me saying yes.  Even the last one who gave me a gentle reminder that I’m supposed to inform licensing when adding a cabinet, didn’t bother to check. 
I suppose some just see cabinets for what they are, a deterrent and that’s it. 

[steve_b_wales]

51 minutes ago, Scully said:

In all the countless times I’ve added or moved cabinets, when the FEO has visited, I can’t ever recall a single one even trying to move one let alone hang off one. 
The usual conversation is, ‘ Are they fixed to the wall?’ followed by me saying yes.  Even the last one who gave me a gentle reminder that I’m supposed to inform licensing when adding a cabinet, didn’t bother to check. 
I suppose some just see cabinets for what they are, a deterrent and that’s it. 

Likewise, and I've moved/added many cabinets during the past 38 years. Also, I have never been questioned on why I never informed them about moving/adding another cabinet.

[timps]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

And there's the thing, in 1992 when BS 7558 was issued, cordless grinders weren't really a thing.  Now you can pick a serviceable one up in Lidl when doing your shopping for £30.  Long since in most thieves tool kits.  And they're much quieter than old school corded grinders too.

Fortunately, it appears chief constables are too preoccupied with nicking people for posting memes to Facebook, rather than worrying about burglaries, whether for firearms or not.

Most opportunist thieves don’t have grinders to hand, if they ever got hold of a grinder it would be pawned in cash generator so they could buy drugs. If you are going with grinders and an assortment of tools you are classed as a professional thief and as the British standard says the chances of stopping them is going to be too expensive to be practical. Fortunately most thieves are of the opportunistic type.

A thread on PW summed it up, they were burgled by opportunist thieves who ransacked the house but they couldn’t gain entry to the cabinet. The police told them to give his gun to a friend who had a SGC and all his ammo for at least 6 months. Because if they came back with the sole intent of breaking into the cabinet the cabinet would be breached as they would be prepared this time but it did it's job to prevent opportunists. 

3 hours ago, Scully said:

n all the countless times I’ve added or moved cabinets, when the FEO has visited, I can’t ever recall a single one even trying to move one let alone hang off one. 
The usual conversation is, ‘ Are they fixed to the wall?’ followed by me saying yes.  Even the last one who gave me a gentle reminder that I’m supposed to inform licensing when adding a cabinet, didn’t bother to check. 
I suppose some just see cabinets for what they are, a deterrent and that’s it. 

Likewise, for me too, for years my cabinet could have been stuck to the wall with double sided sticky tape no FEO was bothered. However, GMP went through a very damming audit and every current certificate holder was reassessed based on the recommendations of this audit so my bolts were checked, I had to remove all papers from the top shelf and expose all 4 bolt heads for inspection. My mate has his cabinet knocked back as he had used screw heads. If you follow the guidance at least it doesn’t give a jobs worth any ammo to knock your cabinet back should your area go through the same audit process as GMP in the future.

Edited August 12, 2022 by timps

[Savhmr]

I now use chemical anchors after having issues with rawlbolts (or other expanding bolts) bursting brick or block.  M10 studs, 120 long using Rawl R-Kem 2 resin.  Drill 14mm holes in wall after marking out centres using cab holes as the guide, inject resign and place bolts into place after positioning cab in place.  5 to 10 minutes later the bolts can be pinched up.  I then tighten 1/4 turn after leaving for a day.  Works a treat and no need to fret over cracking brickwork.  Absolutely rock-solid way of fixing a cabinet and quick too.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Savhmr