NHS meeting at No 10, will the experts come up with any solution ??

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, as above while pondering with my afternoon 🍵 and biscuit , we all know the problems 🤔, it's a list as long as my arm but will they have a magic wand 🤔Any thoughts PW ?

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, as above while pondering with my afternoon 🍵 and biscuit , we all know the problems 🤔, it's a list as long as my arm but will they have a magic wand 🤔Any thoughts PW ?

The present system is broken , we keep patching it up , but this structure isnt far from falling down.

Tear it down , start again with an American style insurance system.
Use the existing hospitals and infrastructure as a starting point with private investment from the insurance companies.
Keep the existing £200 billion a year budget till its off the ground and the creases ironed out, using some of that to provide a medicare style back up for those that cant afford it , ie pensioners and those on benefits.

Buuut , it isnt going to happen , and they will just chuck some more money down the pit, nothing will change.

[harrycatcat1]

32 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, as above while pondering with my afternoon 🍵 and biscuit , we all know the problems 🤔, it's a list as long as my arm but will they have a magic wand 🤔Any thoughts PW ?

It's to be hoped they resolve their differences in the short term at least, fingers crossed 🤞 

[Westward]

The NHS model hasn't been sustainable in the long term for at least 40 years. The idea of cradle to grave care, free at the point of entry, is unique to this country AFAIK. Originally it included free dentistry and free eye care along with illness and injury. Since then many hugely expensive new services such as IVF have been added and the ever increasing expectations from the public and the government as to what the NHS should be providing is dragging it further and further into meltdown.

Labour and their supporters of course cry "Tory cuts" as if it's lack of money that's the problem, but it's much more than that and simply throwing money in does nothing more than delay the inevitable.

The NHS is the last survivor of the era of the great nationalised monoliths like British Rail and the GPO and like them it's a socialist white elephant that has no place in the 21st century.

I agree with Rewulf, restructure into a sustainable, partly self funding service or face the inevitable collapse. 

[ditchman]

it will be same old same old..........if there is any change it will just be pathetic tinkering at the edges............the NHS is going to get alot worse and will be looking at a total colapse  before anyone has the guts to do what needs to be done..........

so really once again............no change

like everything it is down to politics....if the govt gets tough and does what needs to be done now...........they will lose votes and then lose power...........if the NHS or any other big problem finally cant get any worse ...the govt will jump in and do what needs to be done and then they will be hero's.........

[bottletopbill]

Front line staff yes pay rise  they deserve it and ambulance crews.

Managers and office staff No   my wifes mate works sending out appointments works from home and gets the blue light discount same as all the emergency workers do.

Add that total up at the end of year  nice bonus evan on eating out just flash the card.

[Wymondley]

It's a massive gravy train and there's too many vested interests, from the staff to the serial users/abusers, for it to be reformed.

Political suicide for any party that tries.

 

[Rem260]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The present system is broken , we keep patching it up , but this structure isnt far from falling down.

Tear it down , start again with an American style insurance system.
Use the existing hospitals and infrastructure as a starting point with private investment from the insurance companies.
Keep the existing £200 billion a year budget till its off the ground and the creases ironed out, using some of that to provide a medicare style back up for those that cant afford it , ie pensioners and those on benefits.

Buuut , it isnt going to happen , and they will just chuck some more money down the pit, nothing will change.

What do you do with people who have existing health problems. How will they get insurance or should they use their life savings.

[Westward]

4 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

What do you do with people who have existing health problems. How will they get insurance or should they use their life savings.

The NHS wasn't a fully functioning system from day1. It all started the year I was born but when I was 3 my mother spent 18 months in a TB sanitorium in South Mimms. My dad had to work 5 and a half days a week at his main job and 2 evenings at White City dog track in order to pay the bills. Of course no one would do that now, present day people simply assume that it's the government's job to pick up the bills. And that's what would happen for people who couldn't get insurance, much as it is in other civilised countries with working healthcare systems.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

's a massive gravy train and there's too many vested interests, from the staff to the serial users/abusers, for it to be reformed.

Political suicide for any party that tries.

You're not wrong , but sooner rather than later that trains going to derail and get smashed to bits down a bank with mass casualties. 

It could barely cope with covid, and it can barely cope now, stark choices are being made as we speak, and the budget is being eaten away with compo claims due to negligence. 

If it was a business it would be in liquidation. 

6 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

What do you do with people who have existing health problems. How will they get insurance or should they use their life savings.

Their premiums would reflect their conditions ,with government assistance by means test, ONCE some kind of transition period was decided, this would need to be several years ?

The well off are already using private medical care, it's a growth industry, run as a proper business, and is highly efficient. 

Like westward says , the NHS is a dinosaur , past its extinction date, is it any wonder we are the last country to keep flogging it.

[Rem260]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You're not wrong , but sooner rather than later that trains going to derail and get smashed to bits down a bank with mass casualties. 

It could barely cope with covid, and it can barely cope now, stark choices are being made as we speak, and the budget is being eaten away with compo claims due to negligence. 

If it was a business it would be in liquidation. 

Their premiums would reflect their conditions ,with government assistance by means test, ONCE some kind of transition period was decided, this would need to be several years ?

The well off are already using private medical care, it's a growth industry, run as a proper business, and is highly efficient. 

Like westward says , the NHS is a dinosaur , past its extinction date, is it any wonder we are the last country to keep flogging it.

Can you clarify well off. What is your criteria for means testing. No insurance company is going to insure a person who it thinks its likely to pay out a considerable amount for on going care. Do formula 1 teams insure their cars for accidents.

[henry d]

You can't u turn a system overnight,  don't/won't work overnight along with it being a political hot potato that will destroy a party and parties don't like that. Not going to change overnight. 

[stumfelter]

Give them the rise that they desire but do away with full sick pay and replace it with statutory sick pay, also scrap the existing pension scheme and replace it with the people's pension...

[billytheghillie]

And the chavs that dont work, and contribute zero N.I. should not get seen to, hospitals are full of them.

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, billytheghillie said:

And the chavs that dont work, and contribute zero N.I. should not get seen to, hospitals are full of them....and anyone that eats gravy.....

there you are ..i have added summat

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, did I see to stop bed blocking some hospital patients will be transferred to care homes, and hotels with the appropriate care , the latter might be difficult if full of illegal immigrants

[Newbie to this]

11 hours ago, stumfelter said:

Give them the rise that they desire but do away with full sick pay and replace it with statutory sick pay, also scrap the existing pension scheme and replace it with the people's pension...

[scutt]

No fees to train nurses or doctors but they must be contracted to work for the N.H.S for lets say 8 years no bank nursing or  private work etc during that payback time.

I recently had to ring 111 and was advised to go to local A&E now I pass my doctors surgery most days and notice that  very few if any vehicles are in the carpark and its the same when I have had to collect any thing from the surgery the waiting room is empty . This practice amalgamated with two others a few years back when my daughter worked for them the first thing they did was set up a call center with one doctor sitting in to help with the calls and now the docs have practice nurses , nurses who can prescribe and this all seems to allow the doctors more time to manage the business and less time to do what they are trained for .As already said nowt will change and I also think money isn't the answer.

When I hear stories of how much is payed out to made up positions like diversity management and the like I shake my head and think what daft ******* are running the N.H.S. 

[old man]

1 hour ago, scutt said:

No fees to train nurses or doctors but they must be contracted to work for the N.H.S for lets say 8 years no bank nursing or  private work etc during that payback time.

I recently had to ring 111 and was advised to go to local A&E now I pass my doctors surgery most days and notice that  very few if any vehicles are in the carpark and its the same when I have had to collect any thing from the surgery the waiting room is empty . This practice amalgamated with two others a few years back when my daughter worked for them the first thing they did was set up a call center with one doctor sitting in to help with the calls and now the docs have practice nurses , nurses who can prescribe and this all seems to allow the doctors more time to manage the business and less time to do what they are trained for .As already said nowt will change and I also think money isn't the answer.

When I hear stories of how much is payed out to made up positions like diversity management and the like I shake my head and think what daft ******* are running the N.H.S. 

Same here, all part timers now.

Maybe the answer is a cull, third illness meaning curtains, unless in the upper echelon?

 

[Rewulf]

14 hours ago, henry d said:

You can't u turn a system overnight,  don't/won't work overnight along with it being a political hot potato that will destroy a party and parties don't like that. Not going to change overnight. 

Who said anything about overnight? 

I said years. 

16 hours ago, Rem260 said:

Can you clarify well off. What is your criteria for means testing. No insurance company is going to insure a person who it thinks its likely to pay out a considerable amount for on going care. Do formula 1 teams insure their cars for accidents.

Not my job, the government can crunch the numbers and decide what's going to work. 

And like I said, a decent transition period would have to be decided, keeping the present budget to top up the coffers and establish the system. 

But its a waste of time discussing it, as its not going to happen until the inevitable collapse, and people start dying in droves, some say this has already started. 

[armsid]

The system in France seems good part insurance part gov. part works/worker contribution Enfield Spares spent time in France if i am wrong  appoligies. The pharmacists are used to give out prescriptions and diagnosis You pay 22 euros to see a doctor did last time had to see one in 2019 but your seen that day if the chemist cannot help all depends on which is nearest and pay 10 euros for script. Too many people have prescriptions for over the counter drugs because they think it should all be free even if they have paid zilch into the system The French approach could work along with rooting out waste but as has been said a political hot potato

[Vince Green]

To understand the present problems you have to go back to the origins of the NHS.

In South Wales the mining families paid something like a penny a week into a community fund that provided a very basic but much needed form of care.

Bevan merely took this simple idea and nationalised it. But like any nationalised industry it became a dinosaur. It still only provided basic care but layer upon layer of management went on the payroll.

Then treatments and techniques improved but also became much more expensive and prolonged. The rest we all know. 

It is an anachronism a product of the 50s and 60s soft socialism. 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Vince Green

[Westward]

Aneurin Bevan, always ready to take the credit, merely implemented the parts of the Beveridge Report which related to health. Since Labour continually claim to have invented the NHS it might be worth noting that Beveridge was actually a liberal and the report was commissioned by the coalition government under instructions from Churchill. Beveridge having been Churchill's private secretary early in the 20th century.

From it's earliest beginnings, pre WWI, the welfare state was always a liberal concept. This was when the liberals were actually a sensible and electable party and long before they became "Labour Lite". Just about all the Labour Party has ever done for the NHS over the last 70 years is to complain that the conservatives starve it of cash.

The NHS needs to be free of government interference and the government needs to be freed from being held responsible for the structural shortcomings in the NHS. Neither of which will happen whilst it remains untouchable.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Westward

[Rewulf]

[henry d]

4 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, did I see to stop bed blocking some hospital patients will be transferred to care homes, and hotels with the appropriate care , the latter might be difficult if full of illegal immigrants

Well that kind of suggests that they aren't doesn't it.