H.S. 2

[Dougy]

It was mismanaged from the offset and raped by company's allowed by government to line their pockets with gold. The company i worked for at the time Rubbed there hands together with the prospect to make millions.  And unfortunately the cost, not only monetary,  unrepairable damage to our countryside and lives. 

[Weihrauch17]

I would pay not to go to London, who in their right mind would want to. 

[Rim Fire]

I feel sorry for the ones that got compulsory purchased and lost generations of history on the land that they farmed  and woodland lost  

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Rim Fire said:

I feel sorry for the ones that got compulsory purchased and lost generations of history on the land that they farmed  and woodland lost  

Agreed. 

However, IF it was to cost £40B for the part dropped (which is what they say), that is £1K for every 'working age' person in the UK (roughly 40M people of working age).

Is it right that every working age person should shoulder a £1K cost to save an hour from a railway journey from Manchester to Birmingham they will probably never make?

I am in agreement with those saying costs are totally disproportionate to benefits.

[Vince Green]

It's never been about cutting an hour off the journey. It's about having extra track to run trains on that don't have to keep stopping on the way. We are desperately short of track capacity in this country

 

And also to run freight on at night. Which earns money for the railway companies but it has to be done at night because freight trains don't run as fast as passenger trains and a fast train can't overtake a slow train

 

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

It's about having extra track to run trains on that don't have to keep stopping on the way. We are desperately short of track capacity in this country

Yes, I accepted and noted that in my previous post (see last but one post on page 2 of this thread).  But the extra track to HS2 standard is massively (many times) more expensive than just additional track capacity because we have specified this very high speed needing very straight and flat track - which drives up the price.

Had we just added additional capacity for normal UK speed running (e.g 125 mph capable, not the 225 mph of HS2), it would have been much cheaper and very likely would still be going on ahead.

ONE of the reasons we are so short of track is that previous governments have reduced capacity.  Over 5000 miles (out of 18,000) of track was closed by the Beeching cuts and what is often forgotten, 3000 miles closed after WW2 even before Beeching.  Although much of this was minor lines, there was also a significant amount of 'intercity' track removed either by reducing from 4 tracks to two tracks, or closing slower duplicated routes (that were often used for freight and local trains).

Edited October 6, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Although much of this was minor lines, there was also a significant amount of 'intercity' track removed either by reducing from 4 tracks to two tracks, or closing slower duplicated routes (that were often used for freight and local

Thats what impressed me when I was in Holland, effectively a tram running parallel with the train tracks, so the trains aren't stopping to pick up 2,3,2 people at three stops, the train stops at bigger stations,  the smaller stations get a much more frequent pick up and the trains run faster.

From Leigh to Manchester there is now a guided bus route, or the fun bus as it gets called,  I know house prices on the route went up because you can now get into Manchester easily,  are these in place anywhere else?

For somewhere with no train station this is a much better use of money than HS2 was ever going to be, something that would actually get used by the communities affected by it.

[spanj]

On 03/10/2023 at 10:11, scouser said:

So it looks like the track from Birmingham to the north west is going to be cancelled, they shouldn’t have started the thing in the first place, £100 billion just to save 30 minutes into the rats nest.

Was it 30 mins, i thought it was 12 ….. absolutely pointless and an environmental crime imo

[old man]

It did what it was planned to do, bung loads of cash into the pockets of supporters and mates irrespective of environmental impact? Moon pig mentality from politicos?

[enfieldspares]

On 06/10/2023 at 08:19, Vince Green said:

It's never been about cutting an hour off the journey. It's about having extra track to run trains on that don't have to keep stopping on the way. We are desperately short of track capacity in this country

 

And also to run freight on at night. Which earns money for the railway companies but it has to be done at night because freight trains don't run as fast as passenger trains and a fast train can't overtake a slow train

 

This. But the whole HS2 project could have been done so much less costly.

[Yellow Bear]

28 minutes ago, old man said:

Moon pig mentality from politicos?

Form both sides and from the Rail unions big time

[manthing]

The farm we live on is right in the middle of this. The middle farm and all the barns stables and other outbuildings were slap bang on the path and I believe had recently been purchased (along with a decent tract of land) by HS2. The track was to run through a 17m deep cutting so a high pressure gas main and an oil lin have been moved to be under the new track. They have just started building the replacement house that they had a right job getting planning for, and are now in a quandary. Do they buy the land back, apparently at an increased cost, do they still move into the new house and relocate all the barns, feed clamps etc?

The plan at the moment is to wait and see what happens. I foresee a class action legal doings for unnecessary harm or some such. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I've said from the beginning that if was just something to extend the London commuter belt north.

Maybe next time any guvmint wants to link London to somewhere they start building at the somewhere and work towards the cesspit that is London as nobody thinks any money has been spent till it gets to London. 

[discobob]

@manthing

i have actually commuted twice to London from North Wales - Daily - by train

The first time was cracking. 7.15am from Chester (20 minute drive) and at my desk by 9.30am (by King’s Cross) - asleep by Crewe

the next time was worse. 6.25 train and at my desk again by 9 but had to get two tubes to get to the office. At my desk for 9.Again - asleep by Crewe

Now, it is change at Crewe apparently with Davanti now running it

[spanj]

On 04/10/2023 at 20:09, Vince Green said:

This country has a railway network that was basically laid out when Queen Victoria  was on the throne.

OK the trains look more modern and the stations have had a make over but its still so far out of date and we can't run enough trains to cope with the demand that's potentially there.

We need not only HS2 we need a lot more besides

Compare what we have with the rail systems in France or Germany and you see how much catching up we have to do.

Cancelling the Northern section of HS2 is just plain wrong

Compare our land mass with France snd Germany. That and the ever growing population, wheres the room for these lines and sidings, additional stations, roads to and from same…..

The answer is to move some infrastructure out of London but will that happen ……….

[enfieldspares]

4 minutes ago, spanj said:

Wheres the room for these lines and sidings, additional stations, roads to and from same…..

All sold off in the 1970s. I live near Leicester. The old massive British Road Services depot alongside the Great Central Line? Sold Off.

The massive goods depot alongside the Midland Mainline? Sold Off.

The Great Central Station itself? Sold Off.

The whole of the Great Central Line? A strategic route from London to Rigby, to Leicester, to Nottingham to Sheffield (see the beginning of the Michael Caine film "The Ipcress File") with a "spur" up to Manchester? Sold Off?

So the room is there and it always has been there since those Victorian times. It is just that it was sold off.

But it'd have been IMHO cheaper to have re-acquired the whole of the old Great Central LIne and its associated land, depots, sidings and demolished the buildings thereon than building HS2 if...the big if....if the intention was actually to have a second line connecting London with the North. For being the last built the Great Central was also the most modern and the "straightest" line and with the least gradients and curves.

Personally I suspect the truth is it was all about construction contracts for Tory donors in the building and civil engineering sectors.

[PhilR]

3 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

All sold off in the 1970s. I live near Leicester. The old massive British Road Services depot alongside the Great Central Line? Sold Off.

The massive goods depot alongside the Midland Mainline? Sold Off.

The Great Central Station itself? Sold Off.

The whole of the Great Central Line? A strategic route from London to Rigby, to Leicester, to Nottingham to Sheffield (see the beginning of the Michael Caine film "The Ipcress File") with a "spur" up to Manchester? Sold Off?

So the room is there and it always has been there since those Victorian times. It is just that it was sold off.

But it'd have been IMHO cheaper to have re-acquired the whole of the old Great Central LIne and its associated land, depots, sidings and demolished the buildings thereon than building HS2 if...the big if....if the intention was actually to have a second line connecting London with the North. For being the last built the Great Central was also the most modern and the "straightest" line and with the least gradients and curves.

Personally I suspect the truth is it was all about construction contracts for Tory donors in the building and civil engineering sectors.

I live in a Northants village which was a key part of the Great Central Railway back in its heyday.

The only existing feature left of it is the skew bridge over the main road through the village and it's got a grade 1 listing for historical importance.

The villagers were both amazed and relieved when the HS2 route was announced it was to be constructed away from our parish when there are long lengths of track bed and cuttings laying unused. 

[old man]

4 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

All sold off in the 1970s. I live near Leicester. The old massive British Road Services depot alongside the Great Central Line? Sold Off.

The massive goods depot alongside the Midland Mainline? Sold Off.

The Great Central Station itself? Sold Off.

The whole of the Great Central Line? A strategic route from London to Rigby, to Leicester, to Nottingham to Sheffield (see the beginning of the Michael Caine film "The Ipcress File") with a "spur" up to Manchester? Sold Off?

So the room is there and it always has been there since those Victorian times. It is just that it was sold off.

But it'd have been IMHO cheaper to have re-acquired the whole of the old Great Central LIne and its associated land, depots, sidings and demolished the buildings thereon than building HS2 if...the big if....if the intention was actually to have a second line connecting London with the North. For being the last built the Great Central was also the most modern and the "straightest" line and with the least gradients and curves.

Personally I suspect the truth is it was all about construction contracts for Tory donors in the building and civil engineering sectors.

Avery astute final paragraph, it was never about a benefit for the plebians always about siphoning off money to mates in the expectation of the less charitable aspects of Bakseesh wafting back along with the port, cigars? and holidays? 

Edited October 15, 2023 by old man

[shaun4860]

Just a thought but do we Northerners really want faster access to the cesspit or want them to have to have faster access to us.

I think those in the proper North (Not Birmingham or surrounding areas) have dodged a bullet here.

Shame about the huge amounts of money wasted but if some of the “saved” money goes towards dualing the A1 up to Scotland then I’m all for it 🤷🏻‍♂️

[PhilR]

3 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

Just a thought but do we Northerners really want faster access to the cesspit or want them to have to have faster access to us.

I think those in the proper North (Not Birmingham or surrounding areas) have dodged a bullet here.

Shame about the huge amounts of money wasted but if some of the “saved” money goes towards dualing the A1 up to Scotland then I’m all for it 🤷🏻‍♂️

You do realise that dualling the A1 to Scotland will also allow hordes of kilt wearers easier access to God's own country😁😁😁

[Yellow Bear]

35 minutes ago, PhilR said:

You do realise that dualling the A1 to Scotland will also allow hordes of kilt wearers easier access to God's own country😁😁😁

No only those who want to escape the SNP - Mmmm perhaps  your right, it will be hordes.

[Wymondley]

1 hour ago, PhilR said:

You do realise that dualling the A1 to Scotland will also allow hordes of kilt wearers easier access to God's own country😁😁😁

Perhaps some sort of wall may be required to keep them out.

HW2 anyone?

[Yellow Bear]

5 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

HW2 anyone?

Nah too far south and the Antonine Wall is too far North  -  need to be on the border o perhaps Eyemouth to ayre would suit.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Yellow Bear

[Mice!]

6 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

Just a thought but do we Northerners really want faster access to the cesspit or want them to have to have faster access to us.

I think those in the proper North (Not Birmingham or surrounding areas) have dodged a bullet here.

Shame about the huge amounts of money wasted but if some of the “saved” money goes towards dualing the A1 up to Scotland then I’m all for it 🤷🏻‍♂️

Not at all, I've said this all along, who cares what the journey time to London is, when the local trains are late or not running, when it works out cheaper to drive.

The money could have been spent much more wisely and done a lot more good than a train line to London. 

[shaun4860]

4 hours ago, PhilR said:

You do realise that dualling the A1 to Scotland will also allow hordes of kilt wearers easier access to God's own country😁😁😁

Nah, they don’t seem to like us much 😲

[amateur]

3 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

Nah, they don’t seem to like us much 😲

"The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England.”

Samuel Johnson

7 hours ago, PhilR said:

You do realise that dualling the A1 to Scotland will also allow hordes of kilt wearers easier access to God's own country😁😁😁