udderlyoffroad Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 15 hours ago, Rst1990 said: What’s wrong with what I typed??? 2 sentences??? nothing to hide trope, what would you suggest?? I'm not going to explain the nothing to hide logical fallacy to you, you have an internet connection. You also presumably have curtains on your windows? You've got nothing to hide, so why would you need curtains on your windows? 15 hours ago, Rst1990 said: I think you may need to reevaluate the situation at hand and see how serious domestic violence can be. Just because domestic abuse is abhorrent, it doesn't make this measure sensible, proportionate or immune from abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottletopbill Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 (edited) Did any shooting group take part in these discussions or have any input . If they did not why have they not challenged it for there members Edited April 10 by bottletopbill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HantsRob Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 1 hour ago, Stimo22 said: The next thing the police will again be calling for more money to pay for this. They will keep claiming public safety No, I believe they won't. They'll do quite the opposite. If it is for public safety, they have an obligation to do it as part of their budget. If it's for administration, it could be argued it needs funding. 29 minutes ago, bottletopbill said: Did any shooting group take part in these discussions or have any input This is the beauty of trials and demos. They don't need approvals or discussions. The tricky part is stopping it becoming the status quo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 20 minutes ago, HantsRob said: No, I believe they won't. They'll do quite the opposite. If it is for public safety, they have an obligation to do it as part of their budget. If it's for administration, it could be argued it needs funding. This is the beauty of trials and demos. They don't need approvals or discussions. The tricky part is stopping it becoming the status quo. The Police Service in general has been heavily criticised for the way in which they did, or did not, deal with domestic abuse. Most of this was due to the complainant either not wishing to proceed, or withdrawing their complaint before it reached Court. The law was changed to allow Police to arrest an Offender and put them before a Court, complaint or no complaint. Hence the now newly formed Departments to deal with domestic abuse. This trial by 5 Police Forces, certainly would make it appear they take domestic abuse very seriously. It would certainly look good on their Annual Reports too. "We have revoked X amount of firearms Certificates this year, from premises after reports of domestic abuse" ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoli 12 guage Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 51 minutes ago, Westley said: The Police Service in general has been heavily criticised for the way in which they did, or did not, deal with domestic abuse. Most of this was due to the complainant either not wishing to proceed, or withdrawing their complaint before it reached Court. The law was changed to allow Police to arrest an Offender and put them before a Court, complaint or no complaint. Hence the now newly formed Departments to deal with domestic abuse. This trial by 5 Police Forces, certainly would make it appear they take domestic abuse very seriously. It would certainly look good on their Annual Reports too. "We have revoked X amount of firearms Certificates this year, from premises after reports of domestic abuse" ! a report of abuse, whether it may be domestic or some other is MASSIVELY DIFFERENT to ACTUAL (proven) abuse/violence ACTUALLY taking place. how I read this is,and i may be wrong,is you can be found "guilty" with no court appearance or evidence on just the word of a disgruntled wife/partner/neighbour etc,etc,etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 8 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said: a report of abuse, whether it may be domestic or some other is MASSIVELY DIFFERENT to ACTUAL (proven) abuse/violence ACTUALLY taking place. Not when it comes to firearms licencing, a report of abuse whether 'actual' or unproven will result in a visit from your FEO. 8 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said: how I read this is,and i may be wrong,is you can be found "guilty" with no court appearance or evidence on just the word of a disgruntled wife/partner/neighbour etc,etc,etc. Pretty much. They dont like neighbourhood disputes either, drunkenness or mental health issues. When it comes to firearms , you need to be squeaky, or they are at risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottletopbill Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 I agree with them in being careful as we all know this does happen from time to time. But we also have to be careful of any false allegations being made and someone losing there ticket. ( x partner or neighbor or anti ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said: a report of abuse, whether it may be domestic or some other is MASSIVELY DIFFERENT to ACTUAL (proven) abuse/violence ACTUALLY taking place. how I read this is,and i may be wrong,is you can be found "guilty" with no court appearance or evidence on just the word of a disgruntled wife/partner/neighbour etc,etc,etc. Not quite, you can be prosecuted for domestic abuse WITHOUT a statement of complaint. When I was working, some 25 years ago, if the complainant withdrew their statement (which most did) the job never ever got to Court. The Police still have to prove the case, but it can be done, even if the complainant refuses to assist them. Edited April 10 by Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rst1990 Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said: I'm not going to explain the nothing to hide logical fallacy to you, you have an internet connection. You also presumably have curtains on your windows? You've got nothing to hide, so why would you need curtains on your windows? Fair enough if you feel as though you don’t wish to explain. Sort of kills the logical debate. Just because domestic abuse is abhorrent, it doesn't make this measure sensible, proportionate or immune from abuse. you must remember that this is your view. I will ask once again what would you suggest do? we know domestic violence exists, and that guns are dangerous in the wrong hands. The lady in question had a semi automatic shotgun pushed into her chest and threatened to be killed by the licensee. Now I’m sure if the licensee went ahead and killed, the woman like has been said before people would be asking questions why didn’t the police do something, now the police are doing something people aren’t happy but if it saves the life it’s worth it imho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HantsRob Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 19 hours ago, Westley said: Not quite, you can be prosecuted for domestic abuse WITHOUT a statement of complaint. When I was working, some 25 years ago, if the complainant withdrew their statement (which most did) the job never ever got to Court. The Police still have to prove the case, but it can be done, even if the complainant refuses to assist them. I'm pleased to say it still happens now. It is a great change that really helps protect people. I am not sure I see this thread in the same positive light. But time will tell, it will depend how it's labelled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 what do the fools who told us shooting was safe in the hands of boris gump have to say now the tories are cutting our throats with this as a parting gift! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 22 minutes ago, clangerman said: what do the fools who told us shooting was safe in the hands of boris gump have to say now the tories are cutting our throats with this as a parting gift! Taking guns away from morons who do domestic abuse is no threat to shooting in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 20 minutes ago, London Best said: Taking guns away from morons who do domestic abuse is no threat to shooting in general. granted it should work that way but as ticket holder with experience of the police’s magical process that turns fiction into fact just by putting it into written form it doesn’t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrimshanker Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 I'm in Hampshire & my wife was asked questions about my applicability when the FEO visited. She was taken into another room away from me to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 49 minutes ago, clangerman said: what do the fools who told us shooting was safe in the hands of boris gump have to say now the tories are cutting our throats with this as a parting gift! It’s a police initiative, not a government one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellside Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 16 minutes ago, London Best said: Taking guns away from morons who do domestic abuse is no threat to shooting in general. I agree, that taking guns away from those genuine morons is a good thing - how can’t it be? However, opening the flood gates to malicious complaints, by those who seek to use the police force as a rolling pin against their partner, is an entirely different ball game. I know of a couple of cases local to me where aggrieved wives, in the process of divorce, have attempted (wrongly) to ruin their estranged husbands future in shooting. Both cases were resolved in favour of the gun owner, but not without great aggravation and stress to all concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Just now, Scully said: It’s a police initiative, not a government one. Wasn't statutory guidance issued by the gov?, see 2.54 down….https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory-guidance-for-police-on-firearms-licensing/statutory-guidance-for-chief-officers-of-police-on-firearms-licensing-accessible-version-from-1-november-2021 29 minutes ago, London Best said: Taking guns away from morons who do domestic abuse is no threat to shooting in general. That's if the police listen and act when abuse is reported..https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68786745 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 (edited) 2 hours ago, old'un said: Wasn't statutory guidance issued by the gov?, see 2.54 down….https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory-guidance-for-police-on-firearms-licensing/statutory-guidance-for-chief-officers-of-police-on-firearms-licensing-accessible-version-from-1-november-2021 Where there is evidence of domestic abuse, as far as I’m aware. This sounds to me that some forces are using that as a means to question partners, wives etc as a matter of course regardless of whether there is evidence or not. It is widely open to abuse of power by the police. Where does it end? For example: a neighbour ( a field away ) owns a dog which has already attacked two other dogs in the village and has had three attempts at attacking mine. It is a beast of a rescue dog and will rip mine to pieces, which goes into an adrenalin fuelled frenzy each time we meet. I’ve sworn once at the son following a very close do, merely because I didn’t see his dog coming through the hedge to get to mine until it was a foot away and I nearly jumped out of my skin! I have to bite my tongue as the owners know I’m a firearms owner, so my OH has tried to resolve the problem, telling me to stay out of it, but no joy. What if the rozzers ask ‘Any disputes with the neighbours?’ 🤷♂️ Edited April 11 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 5 hours ago, Scully said: It’s a police initiative, not a government one. your right but it’s gov who allow police to put their own spin on the rules lucky I’m not renewing my ticket the harpie would think Christmas came early with this lark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Just now, clangerman said: your right but it’s gov who allow police to put their own spin on the rules lucky I’m not renewing my ticket the harpie would think Christmas came early with this lark Careful you might be feeding the “Troll” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 30 minutes ago, old'un said: Careful you might be feeding the “Troll” he’s forgiven have to reward anyone making that much effort to get a straight answer out of Connor Gorman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSpredder Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 8 hours ago, Scully said: Where there is evidence of domestic abuse, as far as I’m aware....... This sounds to me that some forces are using that as a means to question partners, wives etc as a matter of course regardless of whether there is evidence or not. Some people may be tempted to make claims of domestic abuse, in order to obtain legal aid for divorce. “You might be able to get legal aid if you have evidence that you or your children have been victims of domestic abuse or violence and you cannot afford to pay legal costs.” https://www.gov.uk/legal-aid/domestic-abuse-or-violence Government guidance suggests that the evidence could be nothing more than a letter or report from a health professional who has examined the person by telephone. Schedule 1 (para 11) Letter or report from an Appropriate Health Professional Schedule 1 (11) “A letter or report from an appropriate health professional confirming that that professional, or another appropriate health professional – (a) has examined A in person, by telephone or by video conferencing; and (b) in the reasonable professional judgement of the author or the appropriate examining health professional A has, or has had, injuries or a condition consistent with being a victim of domestic violence.” https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1138848/Evidence_Requirements_for_Private_Family_Law_Matters_guidance_version_11__March_2023_.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armsid Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 this needs checking by our shooting orgs. Just imagine them asking nearby neighbours about you they may not have known about your hobby now they do you have someone owe you for a job and does not pay? The he threatened to shoot me scenario could kick in if you persued for your money As said earlier you most be squecky clean even on social media channals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckandswing Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 On 09/04/2024 at 13:17, jan8p said: Loaded questions indeed. 'Does your partner have a fascination with non licensed weapons such as cross bows or knives?' I know it probably means abnormal fascination, but anybody being asked that question would probably say 'yes' if their partner says they love archery. Is that the end of their certificates if taken out of context by an over excitable FEO? I read that one too. I’d be done for. I collect knives and make knives. Not from any maniacal perspective. Simply because I use them daily and I find them interesting. Next they’ll be emptying out the garage because I have garden tools, saws, axes, sledge hammers etc. I don’t see a problem with chatting to family members. There does, however, have to be some common sense employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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