Is shooting finished

[Beaulydog]

Shooting is a struggling sport.will evet Cooper 

Destroy it?

[Acerforestry]

I hope not, I've barely got started....

[rbrowning2]

It certainly looks to have its challenges, not just potentially what Labour may do with full cost recovery of fees to pay for knife crime but also the likely lead ban. Then the rising cost of shooting and from the HO data falling certificate numbers. The shops are full of secondhand guns. 

We are going to need a strong fighting shooting organisation, may be time they considered the future and a coming together as one?  As history as shown divided we fall.

Edited July 6 by rbrowning2

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, Maybe it is time for another Countryside Alliance March🤔

[ditchman]

Yvette cooper (aka Pixy Balls).....is totally untrustworthy................

[marsh man]

22 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, Maybe it is time for another Countryside Alliance March🤔

A nice day out in London maybe , but what good they done I haven't a clue , we went on them all as the estate put on a free coach , yes we enjoyed the day as we walked along the places in London where we hadn't walked before , come to think of it that was the last time we went to the capital , mind you , I ain't in no hurry to go back , the pace of life is far to quick , they need to slow a bit , and then a bit more , still a bit more , you are not there just yet 

[old'un]

I think the future of shooting, gun ownership under labour will be a challenge…..outfight ban on gun ownership...maybe?….make it as difficult/restrictive/costly as possible to acquire a SGC/FAC...very possible?

Only thing in our favour at the moment is, they have a lot more things on their plate to sort out first but should we get another license holder linked to a shooting then its very possible they will act sooner.

Not forgetting that anyone who owns a gun and shoots live quarry is a “Toff”

[enfieldspares]

On the basis that you don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs there may be hope that Labour's intent to increase licence fees infers that it isn't going to then ban private ownership of guns. For no guns = no fees revenue. And that there was no commitment in their manifesto on further s1 or s2 controls or on airgun licencing.

I also am glad that the Starmer majority is such that he can govern without the horse trading that Scotland saw between the majority party and the Scottish Green Party. That he has no need...I hope...to seek support from the Green Party by advancing their position on private gun ownership.

It is now for BASC and CPSA to request that before Labour does consider these increased fees advised by the Home Office fees working group that an audit is done of input to the cost of that process independent of the Superintendents Association, the Police Federation or ACPO of the costs and "best practice" costs of the administration of the licensing system so that if fees are increased they are done so on an honest cost recovery.

[Stimo22]

Most of the extra costs for certification have been caused by the police themselves by adding medical forms etc. BASC should be fighting to stop the police just adding to the requirements off the own back 

[Old farrier]

44 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

On the basis that you don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs there may be hope that Labour's intent to increase licence fees infers that it isn't going to then ban private ownership of guns. For no guns = no fees revenue. And that there was no commitment in their manifesto on further s1 or s2 controls or on airgun licencing.

I also am glad that the Starmer majority is such that he can govern without the horse trading that Scotland saw between the majority party and the Scottish Green Party. That he has no need...I hope...to seek support from the Green Party by advancing their position on private gun ownership.

It is now for BASC and CPSA to request that before Labour does consider these increased fees advised by the Home Office fees working group that an audit is done of input to the cost of that process independent of the Superintendents Association, the Police Federation or ACPO of the costs and "best practice" costs of the administration of the licensing system so that if fees are increased they are done so on an honest cost recovery.

Very good post 👍😊

[oowee]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

On the basis that you don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs there may be hope that Labour's intent to increase licence fees infers that it isn't going to then ban private ownership of guns. For no guns = no fees revenue. And that there was no commitment in their manifesto on further s1 or s2 controls or on airgun licencing.

I also am glad that the Starmer majority is such that he can govern without the horse trading that Scotland saw between the majority party and the Scottish Green Party. That he has no need...I hope...to seek support from the Green Party by advancing their position on private gun ownership.

It is now for BASC and CPSA to request that before Labour does consider these increased fees advised by the Home Office fees working group that an audit is done of input to the cost of that process independent of the Superintendents Association, the Police Federation or ACPO of the costs and "best practice" costs of the administration of the licensing system so that if fees are increased they are done so on an honest cost recovery.

Excellent well balanced post. 👍

[Rim Fire]

7 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, Maybe it is time for another Countryside Alliance March🤔

It didn't work with fox hunting but was a nice day out

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Very good post 👍😊

 

5 hours ago, oowee said:

Excellent well balanced post. 👍

Thank you. It would be unbelievable if "the party of the working man" did then so increase fees such that only those slightly behind Jacob Rees-Mogg and his cohort were then the only ones that could afford firearm or shotgun certificates. So perhaps if you've a newly elected Labour MP it may be worth a letter making the direct point about pricing out the "ordinary shooter" so that a licence becomes so expensive that only the rich can now afford the pastime "you" and "your family" so much enjoy?

Edited July 6 by enfieldspares

[Genghis]

10 hours ago, old'un said:

I think the future of shooting, gun ownership under labour will be a challenge…..outfight ban on gun ownership...maybe?….make it as difficult/restrictive/costly as possible to acquire a SGC/FAC...very possible?

Only thing in our favour at the moment is, they have a lot more things on their plate to sort out first but should we get another license holder linked to a shooting then its very possible they will act sooner.

Not forgetting that anyone who owns a gun and shoots live quarry is a “Toff”

This is a good summary.

 

I don’t think an outright ban is likely at all. The hardest proposal post-Keyham was a ban on keeping guns at home. This may rear its ugly head again if there is a notable shooting incident in the next 5 years, but at present the majority of Labour voters don’t see gun control as a top priority - a lot of them are blissfully unaware that you even own a gun in this country.

 

Luke Pollard is the one to keep an eye on.

[Conor O'Gorman]

37 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Thank you. It would be unbelievable if "the party of the working man" did then so increase fees such that only those slightly behind Jacob Rees-Mogg and his cohort were then the only ones that could afford firearm or shotgun certificates. So perhaps if you've a newly elected Labour MP it may be worth a letter making the direct point about pricing out the "ordinary shooter" so that a licence becomes so expensive that only the rich can now afford the pastime "you" and "your family" so much enjoy?

Absolutely.

Shooting should be an accessible sport open to people from all walks of life and not become the preserve of the wealthy, with the finances and means to overcome increasing costs and red tape related to firearms licensing.

With a Labour majority government now in power, it would be perverse for that government to introduce further barriers for working people, to enjoy a sport that does so much for participants’ wellbeing, the environment and the economy.

However, the 412 MPs making up that majority each need to be introduced to shooting by constituents in their constituencies and that is where people on this forum come in. 

Whomever is reading this please invite your MP to see your shoot, club or shooting business – many are new to politics and know little of shooting so let’s start them off with a positive and informative experience - if you need support for your meeting email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk 
 

[Smudger687]

25 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Absolutely.

Shooting should be an accessible sport open to people from all walks of life and not become the preserve of the wealthy, with the finances and means to overcome increasing costs and red tape related to firearms licensing.

Couldn't agree more Conor, but access to hunting land and the good reason licensing requirement are far bigger obstacles for most of us. 

[JonBoyWalton]

The problem is licence holders are becoming a smaller minority year on year and as we become smaller our voice will become quieter. More needs to be done to promote shooting sports. There's a lot of press put out by the big shooting organisations but it tends to be around game shooting etc and the value it has to the economy. I wish more was done to promote target sports etc so people know that 1) they can actually do the sport in the UK, that 2) it's more accessible than they probably think and 3) it's not just for the rich. Getting more people into shooting means more people with FAC's and as a larger community we have a bigger voice. 

[Feltwad]

It  most likely be gone by the next election so five years at the most  the writing was on the wall after Hungerford  then all shooting organisations should have been under one roof but no the attitude was if it does not concern me not  interested.

Feltwad

[old'un]

12 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

 

Thank you. It would be unbelievable if "the party of the working man" did then so increase fees such that only those slightly behind Jacob Rees-Mogg and his cohort were then the only ones that could afford firearm or shotgun certificates. So perhaps if you've a newly elected Labour MP it may be worth a letter making the direct point about pricing out the "ordinary shooter" so that a licence becomes so expensive that only the rich can now afford the pastime "you" and "your family" so much enjoy?

Labour have said that they will implement total cost recovery for firearms licensing, that probably means a huge increase in certificate fees which maybe the straw that brakes the camels back for a lot of gun owners.

There is also a rumour floating around that doctor's certificates and/or some mooted mental health screening will be required annually which you will have to pay for, more cost.

Perhaps there will be no need for a total ban on guns, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

12 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Absolutely.

Shooting should be an accessible sport open to people from all walks of life and not become the preserve of the wealthy, with the finances and means to overcome increasing costs and red tape related to firearms licensing.

With a Labour majority government now in power, it would be perverse for that government to introduce further barriers for working people, to enjoy a sport that does so much for participants’ wellbeing, the environment and the economy.

However, the 412 MPs making up that majority each need to be introduced to shooting by constituents in their constituencies and that is where people on this forum come in. 

Whomever is reading this please invite your MP to see your shoot, club or shooting business – many are new to politics and know little of shooting so let’s start them off with a positive and informative experience - if you need support for your meeting email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk 
 

A less predictable threat is the politicisation of the police, and how the various Labour Police & Crime Commissioners and pro-Labour Chief Constables will use shooting sports and firearms ownership to further their own agendas.

Some current PCCs (eg Merseyside) have openly stated that they see their mission as work ongoing to remove and reduce the amount of lawfully-owned firearms across Merseyside.

BASC lodged an official complaint against Merseyside Police.

[wymberley]

• 
   

No, but things in the future will be somewhat different.

Driven shooting will be all wild birds and with the odd exceptions all guests will be paying. Walked up will continue but again all birds will be wild.

Foreshore wildfowling will continue.

Other shooting which by and large means vermin will also continue but will be purpose orientated and limited.

Numerically speaking the number of Guns will be on a par with the mid 20th century. The biggest driver for this will be that all shooters will be obliged to show competence in terms of hunting knowledge and also gun handling with this latter aspect only necessary for clay target shooters.

Enjoy!

[Genghis]

12 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Absolutely.

Shooting should be an accessible sport open to people from all walks of life and not become the preserve of the wealthy, with the finances and means to overcome increasing costs and red tape related to firearms licensing.

With a Labour majority government now in power, it would be perverse for that government to introduce further barriers for working people, to enjoy a sport that does so much for participants’ wellbeing, the environment and the economy.

However, the 412 MPs making up that majority each need to be introduced to shooting by constituents in their constituencies and that is where people on this forum come in. 

Whomever is reading this please invite your MP to see your shoot, club or shooting business – many are new to politics and know little of shooting so let’s start them off with a positive and informative experience - if you need support for your meeting email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk 
 

Conor, I support BASC. I want to ask you this in good faith.

 

If the proposals from 2021 rear their ugly head again, is BASC prepared in how to address them? There’s a lot of people in towns and cities who aren’t expressly ‘anti-shooting’ but they have no understanding as to why someone would need to ‘own’ a gun, never mind keep it at home. Given that the idea of guns being banned from being kept at home has been floated around numerous times, especially since 2021, I think this is something that BASC should be prepared in how to answer to.

 

Different kinds of shooters will have different reasons, but I think it would be worth polling membership on this to collate all views. I hope that you can pass this feedback along.

 

Addressing the merits of pump-action shotguns would be worthwhile too.

[armsid]

Ghengis good post but if it was possible i would like to see ALL the shooting orgs, form a body with a rep. from each Firearms dept. of these orgs. act together as one to challenge any legislation from Labour and Defra 

[PeterHenry]

5 hours ago, Feltwad said:

It  most likely be gone by the next election so five years at the most  the writing was on the wall after Hungerford  then all shooting organisations should have been under one roof but no the attitude was if it does not concern me not  interested.

Feltwad

This is perhaps tending towards the hysterical

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

• 
   

No, but things in the future will be somewhat different.

Driven shooting will be all wild birds and with the odd exceptions all guests will be paying. Walked up will continue but again all birds will be wild.

Foreshore wildfowling will continue.

Other shooting which by and large means vermin will also continue but will be purpose orientated and limited.

Numerically speaking the number of Guns will be on a par with the mid 20th century. The biggest driver for this will be that all shooters will be obliged to show competence in terms of hunting knowledge and also gun handling with this latter aspect only necessary for clay target shooters.

Enjoy!

I know your post didn't put a time frame on it - but i'd be very suprised if that happened in the current parliament.

I can see something like it happening down the line someway - however, even then there are possible silver linings.

For instance, look at Wales and how the game bird release licencing suggestions seems to have gone off the boil of late. Also, look how the suggestions were worded - it was the release of non native game birds (and possibly mallard???)

I know grey partridge have a reputation of being tricky to rear in captivity - but there are various Facebook groups who's members have good success. 

Essentially I think the release of non native birds and volume (both in release and in the shooting itself) are the issues. Because nature is an emotive subject and certain - to mix metaphors - intrested persons and organisations have taken (perhaps more than) a grain of truth and spun a large and emotive lie that pheseants and game shooting in genereal are causing huge amounts of damage to the countryside.

I think we need to brace for change in the medium to long term. I don't think we need to worry ourselves about our sport disappearing - although I do think it's going to tend towards an enthusiasts sport in the future, not just a roll up on the morning of the shoot and put no work in sort of thing.

Another thing - and one I know you didn't mention in your post, but I'm in full flow now so I won't let it stop me - hobbies are not necessities. If pepole feel poor, they are less likely to endulge in a hobby, as its essentially a luxury. If they feel better off, they will be more open to pushing out the boat. So if Labour can turn around the fortunes of the proverbial man on the Clapham omnibus, I think we may see numbers of participants in our sport go up - as long as certificate prices don't go too high. 

Anyway, hey ho - let's see what changes the future brings, and what the orgs (extremely sensible) efforts in quantifying the values of shooting do to fend them off.

Edited July 7 by PeterHenry

[old'un]

1 hour ago, PeterHenry said:

Another thing - and one I know you didn't mention in your post, but I'm in full flow now so I won't let it stop me - hobbies are not necessities. If pepole feel poor, they are less likely to endulge in a hobby, as its essentially a luxury. If they feel better off, they will be more open to pushing out the boat. So if Labour can turn around the fortunes of the proverbial man on the Clapham omnibus, I think we may see numbers of participants in our sport go up - as long as certificate prices don't go too high. 

Anyway, hey ho - let's see what changes the future brings, and what the orgs (extremely sensible) efforts in quantifying the values of shooting do to fend them off.

I don't think its just money that is holding people back from taking up shooting as a hobby.

40% of shooter are 50+, the 18 to 30 year olds make up just 13% and 14 to 17 make up just 0.1%, the Generation Z, 18 to 30 year old had at totally different childhood/upbringing to the 50+ shooters, Gen Z are more likely to-be the ones opposed to gun ownership and shooting and less likely to take the hobby up even if they had the money to-do so.

[PeterHenry]

8 minutes ago, old'un said:

I don't think its just money that is holding people back from taking up shooting as a hobby.

40% of shooter are 50+, the 18 to 30 year olds make up just 13% and 14 to 17 make up just 0.1%, the Generation Z, 18 to 30 year old had at totally different childhood/upbringing to the 50+ shooters, Gen Z are more likely to-be the ones opposed to gun ownership and shooting and less likely to take the hobby up even if they had the money to-do so.

I think that is true to some degree. I'm 35 - and on two of the three syndicates that I shoot at regularly or semi regularly, there are a good spread of ages amoungst the guns, beaters and pickers up - everything from pepole in their early 20's to into their 80s. Younger still if you count the children occasionally bought along.

However, going back to what I was saying about hobbies and disposable income - if as a young person all your money is going on rent or a hugely overvalued mortgage, then you won't be looking for extra ways to spend what's left.

The school I went to did clay pigeon, and also had a rifle range with .22 rimfires - they were both always well attended activities. I loosely keep in touch with the school and they still are. 

There are plenty of young people into shooting if you look on Instagram - I find it quite therapeutic to look at. Maybe not as many as years ago - but not as many pepole drink in pubs as they use to, or any number of other things. Your right, tastes do change, but I don't think we are seeing the end to our sport yet.