ditchman Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 1 hour ago, Vince Green said: That's already happened apparently i was joking ...............are you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 On 26/12/2024 at 07:07, Rim Fire said: So does this mean fishing with lead is also being banned Anything above a number 8 and below 1oz is already banned and has been for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 15 minutes ago, Penelope said: Anything above a number 8 and below 1oz is already banned and has been for a long time. Yes. Which is why I cannot understand that lead shot cannot continue for clay pigeon shooting and that 12 bore lead expanding slug cannot continue to be used for the farmers and crofters permitted right to use a shotgun to shoot deer under the Deer Act and Deer Order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 2 hours ago, ditchman said: i was joking ...............are you ? No apparently all the new NATO small arms ammunition is going over to lead free . Strange but true. Two versions of the reason why. One is because most ammo is expended on training and most of that happens on ranges in Europe The other reason that has been suggested is because the Geneva Convention forbids the use of toxic materials on the battlefield. Lead is now considered a toxic material. All I know is that it is ruining our supply of surplus ammo because this lead free stuff is not as accurate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 31 minutes ago, Vince Green said: No apparently all the new NATO small arms ammunition is going over to lead free . Strange but true. Two versions of the reason why. One is because most ammo is expended on training and most of that happens on ranges in Europe The other reason that has been suggested is because the Geneva Convention forbids the use of toxic materials on the battlefield. Lead is now considered a toxic material. All I know is that it is ruining our supply of surplus ammo because this lead free stuff is not as accurate And absolutely useless at distance. This cannot be true...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 1 hour ago, Vince Green said: No apparently all the new NATO small arms ammunition is going over to lead free . Strange but true. Two versions of the reason why. One is because most ammo is expended on training and most of that happens on ranges in Europe The other reason that has been suggested is because the Geneva Convention forbids the use of toxic materials on the battlefield. Lead is now considered a toxic material. All I know is that it is ruining our supply of surplus ammo because this lead free stuff is not as accurate does this include depleted uranium tank rounds fired from chain guns and gatling guns ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 2 minutes ago, ditchman said: does this include depleted uranium tank rounds fired from chain guns and gatling guns ? Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 2 Report Share Posted January 2 Just now, ditchman said: does this include depleted uranium tank rounds fired from chain guns and gatling guns ? No that stopped after Gulf War Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robden Posted January 3 Report Share Posted January 3 14 hours ago, Vince Green said: No apparently all the new NATO small arms ammunition is going over to lead free . Strange but true. Two versions of the reason why. One is because most ammo is expended on training and most of that happens on ranges in Europe The other reason that has been suggested is because the Geneva Convention forbids the use of toxic materials on the battlefield. Lead is now considered a toxic material. All I know is that it is ruining our supply of surplus ammo because this lead free stuff is not as accurate So much better to be killed with a Geneva Convention approved round, rather than a toxic round. ***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 3 Author Report Share Posted January 3 Are not nuclear weapons toxic on the battlefield? so guess they are all banned…… not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted January 3 Report Share Posted January 3 20 hours ago, Vince Green said: The other reason that has been suggested is because the Geneva Convention forbids the use of toxic materials on the battlefield. Lead is now considered a toxic material. Its an interesting concept, utterly hypocritical of course, but interesting none the less, that our governments are 'concerned' about polluting the potential battlefield with lead. Does the very definition of warfare not pollute the battlefield for years to come ? Are there teams of environmentalists patrolling and cleaning up warzones from the past ? The destruction and environmental damage caused by ordnance, the destroyed vehicles, buildings, and the potential for unexploded munitions, does this pale into insignificance over the 'toxic' threat of lead bullets ? Whatever next, will we be more concerned over the potential for offence against race and gender equality on the battlefield than the potential for violent death ? In warfare the rules go out the window, so I find it rather pathetic that some talking head thinks a lead free battlefield is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet11-87 Posted January 3 Report Share Posted January 3 23 hours ago, Vince Green said: No apparently all the new NATO small arms ammunition is going over to lead free . Strange but true. Two versions of the reason why. One is because most ammo is expended on training and most of that happens on ranges in Europe The other reason that has been suggested is because the Geneva Convention forbids the use of toxic materials on the battlefield. Lead is now considered a toxic material. All I know is that it is ruining our supply of surplus ammo because this lead free stuff is not as accurate i heard "talk" of it for use on small ranges that see allot of use but on active deployment this just wont happen unless they find an alternative with outstanding performance no this just wont happen they military doesn't like changing stuff especially if it works. A change would require R&D followed by retooling followed by field trials in all nato nations standard issue arms. and given its not exactly a peaceful time at the minute more pressing issues are present depleted uranium, cluster and un exploded ordnance, single use batteries, tones of plastic, gallons of diesel and oil, tritium, prosperous spent and unspent. we leave loads of sh.... thats just war trash is way worse than lead. war itself has also been proven to be pretty bad for your health to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamch Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) Any news on Hortonium shot? Recall a bit on the web a while ago but all gone quiet. Edited January 13 by grahamch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, grahamch said: Any news on Hortonium shot? Recall a bit on the web a while ago but all gone quiet. I think that there's more chance of finding a pile of rocking horse pooh on the road that runs past my house that seeing cartridges loaded with this hortonium in the gunshops. I'd like to be wrong. But I fear I am not. The Facebook page for Horton in July 2024 said "later this year". Then in October/November 2024 they showed a machine making the shot. Edited January 13 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted Wednesday at 18:46 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 18:46 On 13/01/2025 at 22:59, enfieldspares said: I think that there's more chance of finding a pile of rocking horse pooh on the road that runs past my house that seeing cartridges loaded with this hortonium in the gunshops. I'd like to be wrong. But I fear I am not. The Facebook page for Horton in July 2024 said "later this year". Then in October/November 2024 they showed a machine making the shot. Hortonium If ok for Damascus twist barrels such has muzzle loaders early breech loader and pinfires it will save them has most would have ended up going to the furnace also it will fetch the big fowlers out of retirement and used for what they were built for, another factor is the price of this shot . The Damascus twist barrel is part of the gun history once gone will never be replaced and which should be held in trust for future generations to use and enjoy Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted Wednesday at 18:48 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 18:48 Forgive my ignorance, but would a Damascus or BP barrel withstand nitro proofing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted Wednesday at 19:00 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 19:00 11 minutes ago, Scully said: Forgive my ignorance, but would a Damascus or BP barrel withstand nitro proofing? Definitely, if sound and of good quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted Wednesday at 19:02 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 19:02 Just now, London Best said: Definitely, if sound and of good quality. In which case it would be possible to nitro proof and then use standard steel? Purists may understandably balk at the suggestion, but at least they could still be used. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted Wednesday at 19:04 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 19:04 Many, many Damascus guns are already nitro proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted Wednesday at 19:24 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 19:24 4 minutes ago, London Best said: Many, many Damascus guns are already nitro proof. A Damascus twist barrel breech loaders are often nitro proofed but the barrel is very flexible, it is a material that can be whittle like a stick and to shoot steel or any other would ruin the bore . The trouble with nitro the barrels especially with plastic wads is the first thing to cause barrel ripple the same applies Damascus using black powder I have been shooting and restoration of Damascus twist barrel for the passed 77years . Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushandpull Posted Wednesday at 20:16 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 20:16 You are not going to fire many shots so load up with bismuth and crack on. Wildfowlers with "antique" guns got over this some 25 years ago, Hortonium ? Well surely it will have to be largely bismuth unless some unknown elements have turned up. The best shot in very big guns where you can treat it gently and slowly is (was) ITM but that seems to be history now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted Wednesday at 20:35 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 20:35 1 hour ago, Feltwad said: A Damascus twist barrel breech loaders are often nitro proofed but the barrel is very flexible, it is a material that can be whittle like a stick and to shoot steel or any other would ruin the bore . The trouble with nitro the barrels especially with plastic wads is the first thing to cause barrel ripple the same applies Damascus using black powder I have been shooting and restoration of Damascus twist barrel for the passed 77years . Feltwad Has anyone tried steel through a nitro proofed Damascus barrel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted Wednesday at 20:46 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 20:46 1 hour ago, Feltwad said: A Damascus twist barrel breech loaders are often nitro proofed but the barrel is very flexible, it is a material that can be whittle like a stick and to shoot steel or any other would ruin the bore . The trouble with nitro the barrels especially with plastic wads is the first thing to cause barrel ripple the same applies Damascus using black powder I have been shooting and restoration of Damascus twist barrel for the passed 77years . Feltwad Just found this: knew I’d seen it somewhere. https://sporting-gun.com/article/life-without-lead-the-danish-perspective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted Wednesday at 21:21 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 21:21 28 minutes ago, Scully said: Just found this: knew I’d seen it somewhere. https://sporting-gun.com/article/life-without-lead-the-danish-perspective Thats interesting, like the observation with twist barrels, I dont need to use steel through mine [just bismuth for the occasional duck or goose] but if push comes to shove who knows. Reading some of the American forums, many wouldn't fire anything through a damascas barrel let alone steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted Wednesday at 22:14 Report Share Posted Wednesday at 22:14 People have their own opinions on steel in Damascus Twist shotgun barrels but for me it will not be used in my Damascus barrels guns hopefully an alternative will come along and save the Damascus barrel guns from the furnace Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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