Born evil?

[henry d]

From a couple of other threads, there seems to be a repeating of the above, that "Joe Bloggs was just born evil..."

I don`t get it, if you have used this phrase, would you please write down what you actually mean by this? If you are going to write "I don`t know they just are!" don`t bother, just sit in the corner as usual

[Rim Fire]

As you said it's just a phrase people use

[Zapp]

4 minutes ago, henry d said:

If you are going to write "I don`t know they just are!" don`t bother

Best of luck with that...

[Rewulf]

Didn't we do this last month? 

 

[Ultrastu]

Fish got to swim .Birds fly .dogs run .

Bad people are just bad .

It can sometimes be as simple as that. 

Not always .obviously. 

But sometimes. 

You can look for reasons all you want .But you might as well ask a dog  why it likes running about. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Ultrastu

[henry d]

26 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Didn't we do this last month? 

 

Merci beaucoup

12 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Fish got to swim .Birds fly .dogs run .

Bad people are just bad .

It can sometimes be as simple as that. 

Not always .obviously. 

But sometimes. 

You can look for reasons all you want .But you might as well ask a dog  why it likes running about. 

In the corner laddie! You were right Zapp

[Vince Green]

I do think some people are born with a condition where their ability to distinguish right and wrong just doesn't function.  If that's born evil then OK

[Ultrastu]

What is it you want to discuss ?? 

Your wasting your own time let alone others. 

End of topic  

[12gauge82]

You certainly get some born mentally ill, the majority of criminals are made, little doubt about that in my mind, as for people born evil, I would guess there are some but I have no evidence for it and if it is possible I think it is rare.

[TriBsa]

I think any genetic link to evil is tenuous at best. The psycopaths; of which there seem to be about 1% of the population according to studies, appear to have developed this tendency in early life/childhood. Thus in some cases the genetic link to supposedly bad parents could be argued. There is no psycopathic gene as such, these people seem to be emotionally stunted having never developed the empathy towards their fellow humans that largely prevents evil acts. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

12 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

You certainly get some born mentally ill, the majority of criminals are made, little doubt about that in my mind, as for people born evil, I would guess there are some but I have no evidence for it and if it is possible I think it is rare.

Thankfully!

Just now, TriBsa said:

I think any genetic link to evil is tenuous at best. The psycopaths; of which there seem to be about 1% of the population according to studies, appear to have developed this tendency in early life/childhood. Thus in some cases the genetic link to supposedly bad parents could be argued. There is no psycopathic gene as such, these people seem to be emotionally stunted having never developed the empathy towards their fellow humans that largely prevents evil acts. 

Nicely put.

[henry d]

33 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

I do think some people are born with a condition where their ability to distinguish right and wrong just doesn't function.  If that's born evil then OK

All people are born without the ability to distinguish right from wrong surely? Even the concepts of right and wrong have to be given to us from all of those we interact with as infants and children, to conceptualise what is truly right or wrong you need to be of teenage years as that is when the ability to understand concepts and abstract thought begin, so the guy below is either a late developer or a teen.

23 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

What is it you want to discuss ?? 

Your wasting your own time let alone others. 

End of topic  

Back to your corner and play with the toys, the adults are talking

[henry d]

5 minutes ago, TriBsa said:

I think any genetic link to evil is tenuous at best. The psycopaths; of which there seem to be about 1% of the population according to studies, appear to have developed this tendency in early life/childhood. Thus in some cases the genetic link to supposedly bad parents could be argued. There is no psycopathic gene as such, these people seem to be emotionally stunted having never developed the empathy towards their fellow humans that largely prevents evil acts. 

I think I agree with this mostly, however I know of a 5y.o. who has very intelligent parents, degrees etc, who try to keep her on the right track, but she is a spoilt brat and quite violent. The strange thing is that they refuse to physically discipline their children (it is now illegal here) and their second child is less so, but at the moment bites other kids, but that may just be a phase.

 

[Ultrastu]

16 minutes ago, henry d said:

All people are born without the ability to distinguish right from wrong surely? Even the concepts of right and wrong have to be given to us from all of those we interact with as infants and children, to conceptualise what is truly right or wrong you need to be of teenage years as that is when the ability to understand concepts and abstract thought begin, so the guy below is either a late developer or a teen.

Back to your corner and play with the toys, the adults are talking

Your  a very rude person shame on you 

[Whitebridges]

5 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Your  a very rude person shame on you 

That’s a bit strong if I may say so . Do you know henryd’s background on here? 

Right and wrong are difficult things to agree on. It used to be a lot simpler when culturally we were more similar. More and more we are further apart and the gap is widening IMO.

 

[tonker]

No-one is born evil in my mind. We learn from parents and peers as we grow from a very young age, If we learn what others perceive to be wrong, then we're classed as a wrong un. Get in with the wrong crowd as a youngster and you will probably stray, move out of that area and into another with different surroundings and people, and you will get different values put in front of you, your attitude to things alter ( for the better we hope). I've been on both sides as you can probably tell, Glad my parents sold their house and moved to the sticks before I was able to drive they could see what was happening, can't thank them enough. Answer to your question  no, your not born as evil, it's just a path we take in life as we evolve.

[Whitebridges]

2 hours ago, Zapp said:

Best of luck with that...

 With the best will in the world this isn’t going to happen. 

Free speech means you can spout off without any substance in what you say. What’s the problem henryd?

[henry d]

14 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Your  a very rude person shame on you 

What can I say....I`ve been like that since birth

1 minute ago, tonker said:

No-one is born evil in my mind. We learn from parents and peers as we grow from a very young age, If we learn what others perceive to be wrong, then we're classed as a wrong un. Get in with the wrong crowd as a youngster and you will probably stray, move out of that area and into another with different surroundings and people, and you will get different values put in front of you, your attitude to things alter ( for the better we hope). I've been on both sides as you can probably tell, Glad my parents sold their house and moved to the sticks before I was able to drive they could see what was happening, can't thank them enough. Answer to your question  no, your not born as evil, it's just a path we take in life as we evolve.

We seem to have similar past lives, however after a good early childhood my parents, for some reason, knocked seven shades out of each other before splitting and eventually I also split and joined the forces, all of which had some effect on who I am now.

 

1 minute ago, Whitebridges said:

 With the best will in the world this isn’t going to happen. 

Free speech means you can spout off without any substance in what you say. What’s the problem henryd? Works for me, I`ve been spouting tosh for ... ever?

 

[CharlieT]

 

Taking the dictionary definition of evil as "profoundly immoral and wicked", I don't think anyone is born as such. They may well be born with a development or mental health issue, but none of these issues produce what we may term evil. 

As has been said, an evil or "profoundly immoral and wicked" child or adult is that way because of environmental issues.

[wascal]

I Think we are born with a genetic bias  to tip us one way or the other, but it is vastly subsumed by our upbringing and experience.

But it tends to reassert itself during times of stress

 

"Humanity .. The High point of mother earth development  !  A huge brain and opposable thumbs .  We should be living like KINGS !

Instead we are just well dressed monkeys " 

 

 

[grrclark]

"Evil" as a word in itself is subjective and needs definition in relation to the context of the question.  What does "evil" actually mean?

In the context of "some people are just born evil" then I think that equates to behaviour that lacks humanity, compassion, decency, dignity, etc.

Undoubtably social conditioning plays a major factor in behavioural outcomes of chidren, there is huge body of evidence that supports that.  Going off at a tangent it is often related to poverty with poverty being cited as the contributory measure to the antisocial behaviour, but I tend to think that poverty is more of an outcome.

Anyhow, back to the original question, are people born evil?  Yes, but with a bit of qualification.  As mentioned at the start of this post evil is subjective in itself,  there is ample evidence that people are born with differing cognitive abilities across both the conscious and unconscious parts of the brain.

Autism or Aspergers is a perfect example of where the individual may have a limited emotional quotient and simply unable of experiencing things such as empathy or compassion.

Other conditions such as schizophrenia are again a biochemical or neural abnormality and the individual is incapable of making differential decisions that are based on emotional values such as morality or subjective values such as right or wrong.  They may well carry out activities we would consider to be evil, but they have no cognitive ability to recognise that.

Then there are the sociopathic whose behaviours in the extreme cases are definitely worthy of the label of being evil.  Sociopathy may be behaviourally conditioned and also a function of an inherent deficiency in cognitive ability

There are many things in this country that we perceive as wrong because of our cultural or societal development, for example female circumcision is a fairly hot topic on that front, yet in other societies the cultural belief system is such that it is not perceived as being wrong at all.  In the UK we would all likely consider a mother who actively and willingly permits FGM being carried on their daughter as being wrong, possibly even evil given the physical and emotional distress on the child, yet in countries where the practice is still common and widespread they absolutely wouldn't. 

Given that right and wrong is highly subjective and based on a continually evolving societal belief system and collective sense of morality then the potential very much exists that people are born evil, but evil is a relative concept.

Not so very long ago people who were homosexual were considered to be "evil" and, regrettably, to this day some theologians (and possibly PW members) may still consider that as such.  I think there is sufficient evidence now to suggest that some people are born with innate homosexuality and some are socially conditioned towards it.

A rambling post, so to summarise.

Yes people can be born "evil", but that is relative to what the societal acceptance of evil is and the more complex and nuanced our societal rules the more likely it is that some people are simply unable to cope through their physical biochemical makeup.

 

[Gordon R]

"Born evil" is merely a descriptive phrase, such as "daft as a brush" or "thick as two short planks".

Just a phrase to describe someone who commits truly terrible acts. I don't see the point of analysing it as it probably has a different meaning to each poster. Their moral judgement overwhelmed by their desire to commit atrocities.

Venables fits my definition, so does Ian Huntley, Harold Shipman, Myra Hindley, Ian Brady, Jimmy Saville.

[Winston72]

I do like this Idea but sometimes struggle to express myself when typing but here goes, A paedophile can not help been attracted to children no more than some men are attracted to Blondes red heads etc, however I presume most know its wrong and refuse to act on it, and carry out "normal" relations and family life, some act on it and get caught and these are the ones we read about in the news etc neither can help how they feel. So one step on do many people have the urge to kill and control it? and we only read about the ones that get caught? I Believe Brady was born evil but Hindley nurtured into it, Venables born, as he seems unable to learn not to re-offend Thompson not so, or is it that he was born Evil but has learned not to act on urges? Pete Sutcliffe and Ian Brady far from been thick as two short planks but (IMHO) born Evil, Now if people can be born evil is there an as yet undiscovered Evil gene? 

I believe there is

Shipman i believe his own ego allowed him to do what he needs for Cash and or Drugs, I think nurture/life experiences changed him,

PS more than keen to discuss this or other cases by PM as it is of particular interest to me

[Zapp]

For my twopence worth, I think "evil" is such a slippery term that it can't be used in the context of being born that way.  This is because it is so closely tied to cultural norms which vary from culture to culture and differ over time.

In plenty of ancient cultures and some modern ones, paedophilia, which I think almost everyone can agree is repulsive and very harmful and worthy of the term, was viewed as quite normal. 

Likewise, torture and extreme brutality were once accepted functions of legal and punitive systems across Europe and elsewhere.  People would come to watch amputations, beheadings and the like in this country because it was socially accepted at that time, and yet now when we see ISIS do it we declare it evil. 

In no way am I trying to defend either example if course.  My point is that the "evil" label appears to be more an indication  of extreme deviation from what is viewed as culturally acceptable, and is therefore not something that in of itself can be a characteristic of a person.

To my mind, it is easier to evidence that people can be born with innate cruelty, or a warped perception of themselves or others, or inability to act within cultural norms for a number of reasons.

Finally, for anyone espousing the "bad people are bad, mmkay" argument, it's worth remembering that there's a good proportion of the populace who would look at us as shooters and would label us as "evil" without a second thought.

[Harnser]

A very sage shrink that used to report to the courts on the more heinous crimes committed by so called nutters would simply say that ,this man is bad ,not mad .

 

harnser