Steel Shot or Wasting My Time?

[Old farrier]

Been reading this with interest 

just my thoughts on it 

it took me a bit of time to get to grips with steel shot 

now I find myself shooting it nearly all the time through suitable gun and choke 

it in my opinion kills different to lead akin to shooting a deer with a fmj or ballistic tip but it would it’s a different type of cartridge 

best way to describe it is lead kills with kinetic energy and steel kills with bleed out  

it’s different and I wonder what anyone would say about it’s ability  to kill if they had never used lead shot 

Just my thoughts 

tin hat on 

all the best 

of 

[motty]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Been reading this with interest 

just my thoughts on it 

it took me a bit of time to get to grips with steel shot 

now I find myself shooting it nearly all the time through suitable gun and choke 

it in my opinion kills different to lead akin to shooting a deer with a fmj or ballistic tip but it would it’s a different type of cartridge 

best way to describe it is lead kills with kinetic energy and steel kills with bleed out  

it’s different and I wonder what anyone would say about it’s ability  to kill if they had never used lead shot 

Just my thoughts 

tin hat on 

all the best 

of 

I disagree, OF. They kill the same. The both penetrate the target and hit vital areas to kill. If vital areas are not hit with steel or lead, then they do not kill cleanly. If steel killed by bleeding out, I would never kill so many geese or ducks stone dead.

Lead pellets do not act the same as lead bullets. There is little deformation.

The argument about steel over-penetrating is nonsense. Lead pellets will also go straight through a bird. As long as the right areas have been hit on the way through, it doesn't matter.

[Ttfjlc]

80 odd shots for 14 is poor and I would presume not to your normal standard, if Steel 1s can poleaxe geese over 40 yards then Steel 3s and 4s would be more than enough for pigeons. 

[Fen tiger]

On 15/06/2018 at 21:31, The Lawn Ranger said:

Hi There, my friend and I had the potential for a decent bag of pigeons today, close in over decoys.

During the winter we got chatting to a fellow member on our pheasant syndicate who keeps and works falcons, we agreed that if he supplied steel cartridges he could get our birds less one or two for the pot or for future decoys, happy days for everyone!

We got 250 28g 7's, to kick us off in early spring, our first outing was under a flight line with fast birds in a wind skirting some trees, we had some good shots and some not, but kept an open mind, the next couple of outings only the odd few so still too early to say, on another outing we came across birds feeding on clover late in the afternoon, after a fair bit of banging we didn't have much, about 10 I think but I did notice that what most weren't a clean kill and I was certain most flying away were pricked.

Today was perfect, a brisk wind, birds using a flight line and looking to feed, the decoys/flapper were doing a great job.....but we weren't lol!!!

Birds sailing in to the wind in 2's 3's 4's lining up and firing then automaticly moving on to the next bird with split second confidence only to find the first ain't dropped, the concentration levels stepped up a gear and we knew we were in the zone, yes we did get some but nowhere near what we'd expect for 80 odd shots at that range.  

Of the 14, yes 14, only 2 were stone dead.  I don't like to read too much in to things and judge for myself the end result, perhaps a heavier load larger pellet size would help?

It'll be an embarrassment asking for more cartridges after handing over a measly amount of birds ?

Anyway, what's your experience using steel on live quarry?

Thanks TLR

 

 

 

 

watch this    

          The  paper is here.https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/game_management/dove_summary/   

Edited June 17, 2018 by Fen tiger

[Old farrier]

47 minutes ago, motty said:

I disagree, OF. They kill the same. The both penetrate the target and hit vital areas to kill. If vital areas are not hit with steel or lead, then they do not kill cleanly. If steel killed by bleeding out, I would never kill so many geese or ducks stone dead.

Lead pellets do not act the same as lead bullets. There is little deformation.

The argument about steel over-penetrating is nonsense. Lead pellets will also go straight through a bird. As long as the right areas have been hit on the way through, it doesn't matter.

I agree with you and have no trouble with killing Game with steel 

i was trying to get across that there different and if you hit vital organs there dead 

however when I first started with steel and before I got the cartridge choke combination that suited me coupled with the lesser kinetic energy of steel in the same shot size it was for me a steep learning curve 

almost a relearning exercise 

proberably not explaining this very well 

all the best 

of 

 

[motty]

1 hour ago, Fen tiger said:

watch this    

          The  paper is here.https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/game_management/dove_summary/   

Interesting video. The results indicate what I have also found whilst using steel shot. It works well.

[motty]

16 hours ago, The Lawn Ranger said:

With respect, I have no need for anyone to judge our ability, we get all of our lead cartridges supplied FOC by the 1000's because of the acreage of crop protection we cover for one of the biggest growers in the country!  

Seeing the video, shooting is too close and your bag looks like it would be unfit for consumption....a laughable 50yds ??????

I have no idea which of my videos you watched. If you think the shooting was too close, that may reveal the reason why your shot/kill ratio was so poor with steel.

[marsh man]

I have never done to much homework concerning steel cartridges , ever since the law came into force banning lead in England for shooting wildfowl I have used steel on duck and geese , like the majority of people we had our moans and groans to begin with , then we started to get used to what they were capable of and believe you me , if you are pointing the gun in the right area they will do the business , in fact I have heard one or two say they are better than lead .

My wildfowling now is mainly flooded marshland and for duck I use 32grms and geese 36grms , I am not saying I shoot 100s because I don't but my average season for duck and geese normally reach three figures and I have no complaints with steel .

On one shoot I go on , one of the guns who is a very good shot used steel all one summer on pigeons to get used to it caparbilities and he did shoot a lot of pigeons, and it showed when in the season they have a duck drive he can kill duck at the maximum range with ease and all he use is 32grms of whatever size shot he uses.

I wonder how the op would shoot if someone loaded a batch of unmarked cases with 50% steel and 50% lead and he couldn't tell what he was putting in the breach ? , could be all in the mind .

 

[TIDES EDGE]

Lawn Ranger there is nothing wrong with steel  but as others have said you need to use 32gm 5 or 4 shot .

[mudpatten]

Hello Lawn Ranger. Can I confirm that the birds were surviving head shots with steel which is what you seem to be suggesting.

If they weren`t then I would respectfully suggest that a great many of the "undead" were hit too far back and would not have died instantly whatever the shot material.

The balistic profile of steel is different from lead and steel can sometimes take a little getting used to. As most of the other contributors have suggested, steel no. 7 shot is probably too small.

[Fen tiger]

6 hours ago, motty said:

Interesting video. The results indicate what I have also found whilst using steel shot. It works well.

Same here i can not understand the apparent negativity towards something that works so well.

[6.5x55SE]

39 minutes ago, Fen tiger said:

Same here i can not understand the apparent negativity towards something that works so well.

? Could be the case of " bad workmanship blames the tools "

[Fen tiger]

1 hour ago, 6.5x55SE said:

? Could be the case of " bad workmanship blames the tools "

Well basically that's what the video concluded with the nut behind the but.

[The Lawn Ranger]

4 hours ago, TIDES EDGE said:

Lawn Ranger there is nothing wrong with steel  but as others have said you need to use 32gm 5 or 4 shot .

Thankyou, just a bit of constructive and helpful advice on what others have experienced with steel is welcoming ?

 

 

[Houseplant]

I have been using 31g 4 steel shot for pond ducks and it just doesn't seem to do it on longer shots. Puff of feathers and the birds just seem to keep going which obviously isn't acceptable. I've just switched to 32g 2 steel shot and hope it will be better.

[figgy]

I have took some long shots with steel and its poleaxed geese, what i have learned is gun and choke combo is more important. With other guns carts and chokes i have had hit and miss results. Pattern testing with your chosen cart i think is a must unless your within thirty yards,then any choke with 32g should be sufficient.

[m greeny]

I used to just use steel in my fowling as per the law but now use steel for everything and put it in the right place and it's deadly. I don't get all this negativity towards steel.

[Fen tiger]

Shot  density is no guarantee of effective kills , Steel lead or heavyweight it all has to pattern and if you do your part in gun handling  and chose the right size shot for whatever shot type your using and it patterns then good things happen. BUT! if you are getting something wrong some where with any shot type you will see problems, its time to cast aside any pre conceived negativity you might hold for steel and set too working out whats wrong or what your doing wrong, blaming steel is no get out of gaol free card anymore the verdicts out on steel and its all good acept move on and learn thats a way forward.

 

 

 

 

[tignme]

Ive always been under the impression that pea harvesters ban the use of steel shot over their crop.

That's the case for me on a few permissions with small acrerage.

I stand to be corrected.

Lawn ranger. North Ayrshire shooting ground has a steel pattern plate free of charge.If you decide to try it shout n I will meet with you.

They sell loadsa steel shells. You mihght find the brand you are using does not pattern well in your gun.

Barry

[figgy]

33 minutes ago, tignme said:

Ive always been under the impression that pea harvesters ban the use of steel shot over their crop.

That's the case for me on a few permissions with small acrerage.

I stand to be corrected.

Lawn ranger. North Ayrshire shooting ground has a steel pattern plate free of charge.If you decide to try it shout n I will meet with you.

They sell loadsa steel shells. You mihght find the brand you are using does not pattern well in your gun.

Barry

Barry i thought it was the opposite and they banned lead over certain food crops due to metal detectors not picking it up like steel shot and removing it with magnets when washing and prepping.

[Continental Shooter]

On 17/06/2018 at 09:34, Old farrier said:

it in my opinion kills different to lead

best way to describe it is lead kills with kinetic energy and steel kills with bleed out  

100% spot on it's physics and it's not arguable. Every object releases energy when pushing through an obstacle, and lead passes through more energy than steel causing internal traumas (every forensic journal will confirm that) However, this can be related to pellets not hitting vitals only, it's clear that if you hit vitals -with any pellet- the quarry dies. And i've also come to  the conclusion that this is better on hard to penetrate quarry like geese (which might be shielded by the feathers and fat). I've never used steel (I've used other non toxic) but in these past couple of years studying the matter and the physical property of steel I came to the conclusion that it doesn't outperform lead but is a cheap decent alternative if used wisely. As many said is a matter of gun/choke/pellet size combo and there seems to be an element of adjustment required when leading the bird as well. However, overall it kills and kills well. I ordered my first bag of steel as I now feel ready to test it so, will run some shell through the proof barrel and pattern plate to see if my thinking is right and by the looks of these videos, I think it will not disappoint (great shooting btw)

Edited June 18, 2018 by Continental Shooter

[243deer]

I have watched a pigeon fly the best part of half a mile and then drop stone dead. It was shot at (obviously not brilliantly) with 30g #6 of lead. Dog retrieved it and upon inspection it had one pellet pass through the lungs and exit with no other hits.

When I used to shoot large quantities of pigeons they were breasted out for sale to pubs and restaurants in order to value add, rarely was shot found, it nearly all passed through.

I have only used steel on duck and geese but have not really noticed any difference in kill ratios to when using lead.

I would hope and expect the majority of shot to pass through my quarry in order to minimise the possibility of tooth damage.

I think shot passing through quarry or not is a complete red herring to the op's issue.

If  I were you I would go and shoot some clays, preferably skeet as there is such a good mixture of shots, and thus improve your confidence in steel and possibly identify any type of shot that might need some work. 

[wymberley]

Before it became a casualty of Photobucket's attitude there was a table and write up on here to assist anyone wanting to, or thinking of, changing from lead to steel shot. I do think though that perhaps one member did download it and might still have it.

However, it's long been known that the easiest way to compare the performance of the two materials (or any others for that matter) is to look at their Energy Density. Now that two well known UK manufacturers give velocity/energy tables with their advertising bumpth, this becomes very easy to do.

[Fen tiger]

27 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Before it became a casualty of Photobucket's attitude there was a table and write up on here to assist anyone wanting to, or thinking of, changing from lead to steel shot. I do think though that perhaps one member did download it and might still have it.

However, it's long been known that the easiest way to compare the performance of the two materials (or any others for that matter) is to look at their Energy Density. Now that two well known UK manufacturers give velocity/energy tables with their advertising bumpth, this becomes very easy to do.

I disagree the best way to compare something is proper accurately and well Thought Out field testing, and the op asked to do no more than spend three quarters of an hour and watch that video the Texans did all the research anybody could ever need on an Incredibly Close subject matter.

  I doubt we will see in our lifetime any similar data arrived at in the UK we don't have the resources funding or public interest to get anywhere near what the Texans did in thatresearch.

  the evidence is there to see,   but getting the UK leadites just like the luddites refuse to face facts and move on.  

[wymberley]

5 minutes ago, Fen tiger said:

I disagree the best way to compare something is proper accurately and well Thought Out field testing, and the op asked to do no more than spend three quarters of an hour and watch that video the Texans did all the research anybody could ever need on an Incredibly Close subject matter.

  I doubt we will see in our lifetime any similar data arrived at in the UK we don't have the resources funding or public interest to get anywhere near what the Texans did in thatresearch.

  the evidence is there to see,   but getting the UK leadites just like the luddites refuse to face facts and move on.  

Of course you do. Let's say that you shoot No 7 lead at pigeon and you consider that for your cartridges 40 yards  is your limit energy wise, but now you want to change to steel and ensure that you have a like performance. So what are you going to do? Buy a load of boxes of different steel loads (££££s) and blast away (and time) until you find out what you want. Or are you going to take advantage of all those American studies - whether it Texas, Milo or wherever, which when analysised produced much useful information that makes life easy for us. A quick calculation taking a couple of minutes which whittles down your time and money expenditure to a couple of different loads one of which will suit your needs admirably and the other will suffice with a possible slight reduction or even an increase in range.

Your second bullet point is spot on. For a start, there would be public uproar if we descended upon Findhorn Bay and shot 25,000 ducks in the interest of a ballistic trial. We did, however, carry out extensive external and terminal ballistic trials on various NTS materials but the results remained largely in confidence to the sponsoring organisation - Defra - and several other stake holders.

Your third bullet point is also valid but sometimes one has to question who the Luddites actually are. There is absolutely no doubt that steel works and works well. There is equally no doubt that subsequent analysis of the trial results has produced a bounty which ensures that we can utilize these finding if we are prepared to do some simple maths before finally quickly fine tuning the results in the field.