Panorama (Merged threads)

[pinfireman]

6 hours ago, The Burpster said:

This could be made so simple. Obsolete calibers and antiques must be de activated and proved to be and then only traded with a certicatce of proof. If deactivated properly then they cannot be modified back to a working firearm without destroying structural integrity.

the only issue with that is the same as removing Semi-auto and auto full bore rifles from the US, how do you deal with all of those currently in circulation and worse still how do you ever know how many there are out there? 

Yes I guess.plug the loophole allowing function firearms into the uk and being traded with little or no responsibility, but for gods sake why does anyone think it will slow or stop gun crime or gun related crime? 

**** poor journalism for journalism’s sake and 30minutes of my life I won’t get back......?

This tends to overlook the hundreds of illegal, modern weapons currently being smuggled in through the EU. They are the real problem, not antique weapons!

5 hours ago, Scully said:

Exactly this. This forms the crux of a lengthy letter I’m compiling. If it’s so easy why did they have to employ a firearms forensic body to do it? I would have been convinced if they had simply bought all the items needed and done it themselves. 

Correct

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Anybody with an O level in metalwork and a hobby lathe could make a working gun in their garage if they wanted to. They are not mechanically sophisticated pieces of equipment.

There are hundreds of how to do it videos on youtube. . No need to spend several thousands of pounds buying antiques.

The primary fact though is that you have to have a reason to want an illegal gun in the first place. What is the reason? Establish that and we are getting somewhere

Banning things is a knee jerk reaction but it never works, Drugs are banned, well that's worked really well hasn't it? I suspect a lot of these illegal guns are carried by drug dealers

Correct!

5 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Oh look, another figure plucked out of thin air................ care to enlighten us as to your source.

I worked in the gun trade for 30 years! What,s your expertise?

[Jaymo]

Working in the trade does not grant you the ability to pluck figures out of thin air- I’ve been admonished for not being able to back a posting up so here I am asking for you to quote your source and not what you think you know.

Even Tony Buckland wouldn’t have made such a claim ?

My expertise? Absolutely nothing to do with the gun trade but quite a bit in European logistics and freight movement- if you’ve driven it, ate it, worn it or watched it then I’ve probably moved it. Luckily it now loads itself and I no longer have to get my hands dirty ....... Oh and a few contacts in Border Force and one in NCA

They do say it’s not what you know, but who you know- same with knowledge, it’s not what you think you know but what you actually know. I might not always be right, but I do try and base my opinions / statements on ‘fact’ 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Jaymo
Forgot something

[bluesj]

This is interesting, but does beg the question why did panorama pin point just one part of the problem

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44053904

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, bluesj said:

This is interesting, but does beg the question why did panorama pin point just one part of the problem

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44053904

So what that is saying is the problem comes from smuggled weapons not antiques. Ah I see now, they are looking to change the focus because they can't stop the smuggled gun? Got it!

Edited August 21, 2018 by Vince Green

[pinfireman]

5 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Working in the trade does not grant you the ability to pluck figures out of thin air- I’ve been admonished for not being able to back a posting up so here I am asking for you to quote your source and not what you think you know.

Even Tony Buckland wouldn’t have made such a claim ?

My expertise? Absolutely nothing to do with the gun trade but quite a bit in European logistics and freight movement- if you’ve driven it, ate it, worn it or watched it then I’ve probably moved it. Luckily it now loads itself and I no longer have to get my hands dirty ....... Oh and a few contacts in Border Force and one in NCA

They do say it’s not what you know, but who you know- same with knowledge, it’s not what you think you know but what you actually know. I might not always be right, but I do try and base my opinions / statements on ‘fact’ 

Pistols and sub-machine guns used in crime over the last 20 years have overwhelmingly been modern weapons, NOT antique conversions. That is a fairly recent innovation.  It was easier for the BBC to make an alarmist programme over something coming from America, with all the conotations on gun ownership there, than to admit their beloved EU could be the source of illegal weaponry. It,s only a couple of years back when the focus was on Russian air pistols being converted, and starting pistols................ as for the methods used to get them here, it would be foolish in the extreme to broadcast it on an open forum. Needless to say, you would have to stop and search every vehicle entering the country to do that, and the Border Force, and Customs, do not have the manpower! As I said before, if you can smuggle in half a MILLION people, small items like pistols are relatively easy! And the smugglers do not use freight and logistic companies.

Many years ago, I was privileged to see the confiscated weapons taken over a 3 year period by a Midlands  police force, not a single antique conversion among them, but plenty of Eastern European manufactured  ones!

3 hours ago, Vince Green said:

So what that is saying is the problem comes from smuggled weapons not antiques. Ah I see now, they are looking to change the focus because they can't stop the smuggled gun? Got it!

Correct!

[bangers]

Will be contacting ofcom later regarding racist remark, BBC should be ashamed showing a program that contains an unproven statement. Shameful

[norfolk dumpling]

13 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Working in the trade does not grant you the ability to pluck figures out of thin air- I’ve been admonished for not being able to back a posting up so here I am asking for you to quote your source and not what you think you know.

Even Tony Buckland wouldn’t have made such a claim ?

My expertise? Absolutely nothing to do with the gun trade but quite a bit in European logistics and freight movement- if you’ve driven it, ate it, worn it or watched it then I’ve probably moved it. Luckily it now loads itself and I no longer have to get my hands dirty ....... Oh and a few contacts in Border Force and one in NCA

They do say it’s not what you know, but who you know- same with knowledge, it’s not what you think you know but what you actually know. I might not always be right, but I do try and base my opinions / statements on ‘fact’ 

Is this the Norfolk 'Tony Buckland'  locked away 2016? Should be out soon?

[old'un]

8 hours ago, pinfireman said:

Pistols and sub-machine guns used in crime over the last 20 years have overwhelmingly been modern weapons, NOT antique conversions. That is a fairly recent innovation.  It was easier for the BBC to make an alarmist programme over something coming from America, with all the conotations on gun ownership there, than to admit their beloved EU could be the source of illegal weaponry. It,s only a couple of years back when the focus was on Russian air pistols being converted, and starting pistols................ as for the methods used to get them here, it would be foolish in the extreme to broadcast it on an open forum. Needless to say, you would have to stop and search every vehicle entering the country to do that, and the Border Force, and Customs, do not have the manpower! As I said before, if you can smuggle in half a MILLION people, small items like pistols are relatively easy! And the smugglers do not use freight and logistic companies.

Many years ago, I was privileged to see the confiscated weapons taken over a 3 year period by a Midlands  police force, not a single antique conversion among them, but plenty of Eastern European manufactured  ones!

Correct!

My mate (a shooting man) who retired last year had been a long distance lorry driver all his life making deliveries and pickups around Europe, there were known stops for these drivers and he told me that at some of these stops if you knew the right man to approach and you had the money you could bring back a holdall full of modern handguns.

Never been interested in hand guns but I did know a fair few guys in the Birmingham gun quarter that were (before the ban) big collectors/users of modern and antique firearms, think these guys had/have a good idea where most of the illegal modern guns were/are coming from.

But I guess the program makers thought it would be cheaper and easier to expose this so called loophole on antique firearms and put the surge in handgun shootings down to these antique guns.               

[oowee]

15 minutes ago, old'un said:

My mate (a shooting man) who retired last year had been a long distance lorry driver all his life making deliveries and pickups around Europe, there were known stops for these drivers and he told me that at some of these stops if you knew the right man to approach and you had the money you could bring back a holdall full of modern handguns.

Never been interested in hand guns but I did know a fair few guys in the Birmingham gun quarter that were (before the ban) big collectors/users of modern and antique firearms, think these guys had/have a good idea where most of the illegal modern guns were/are coming from.

But I guess the program makers thought it would be cheaper and easier to expose this so called loophole on antique firearms and put the surge in handgun shootings down to these antique guns.               

Strange that it's easier and cheaper for the BBC to cover antique guns, when as your mate said 'if you knew the right man to approach and you had the money you could bring back a holdall full of modern handguns'. Can't believe it's a budget issue maybe they don't know the 'right man' and need to talk to your mate. 

I guess your mate would have done the right thing to save lives and will have given information to the police to dob in the source. Or maybe your mate heard it from another mate's mate?

[Jaymo]

1 hour ago, norfolk dumpling said:

Is this the Norfolk 'Tony Buckland'  locked away 2016? Should be out soon?

Yep, the one and only

[old'un]

54 minutes ago, oowee said:

Strange that it's easier and cheaper for the BBC to cover antique guns, As opposed to modern handguns illegally smuggled into the UK? when as your mate said 'if you knew the right man to approach and you had the money you could bring back a holdall full of modern handguns'. Can't believe it's a budget issue maybe they don't know the 'right man' and need to talk to your mate. I’ll ask him to contact the BBC

I guess your mate would have done the right thing to save lives and will have given information to the police to dob in the source. Or maybe your mate heard it from another mate's mate?

Yes, lorry drivers are a bit like washer woman and prone to makeup all sorts of stories about smuggling stuff into the UK in the backs of lorries, but I guess they are just stories?

 

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, old'un said:

My mate (a shooting man) who retired last year had been a long distance lorry driver all his life making deliveries and pickups around Europe, there were known stops for these drivers and he told me that at some of these stops if you knew the right man to approach and you had the money you could bring back a holdall full of modern handguns.

Never been interested in hand guns but I did know a fair few guys in the Birmingham gun quarter that were (before the ban) big collectors/users of modern and antique firearms, think these guys had/have a good idea where most of the illegal modern guns were/are coming from.

But I guess the program makers thought it would be cheaper and easier to expose this so called loophole on antique firearms and put the surge in handgun shootings down to these antique guns.               

Very true! All of it! 

14 hours ago, Vince Green said:

So what that is saying is the problem comes from smuggled weapons not antiques. Ah I see now, they are looking to change the focus because they can't stop the smuggled gun? Got it!

Correct!

[pinfireman]

If the IRA could smuggle THOUSANDS of pistols, rifles, sub-machine guns and 5 tons of Semtex into the small area that is Northern Ireland, don,t you think it highly likely that criminals today (and I don,t just mean the brain dead "gangsta" idiots) can use similar routes?  It,s a long time since HM Customs swapped searching large numbers of vehicles and persons, to being "intelligence" lead?   National Crime Agency estimate 18 - 23 TONS of Heroin smuggled in each year,  Cocaine 25-30 tonnes, and God knows how much  Cannabis! And yet one or two doubters here think that it is unlikely large numbers of weapons are being smuggled in from Eastern Europe. Time for some people to wake up!

Edited August 22, 2018 by pinfireman
mis-spelling!

[Rossco89]

The reply I got from the BBC:-

Thank you for contacting us about BBC One’s ‘Legal Weapon: Panorama’ broadcast on 20 August. 

 

I understand you feel the programme was not impartial and failed to explain that firearm ownership is the UK is regulated. 

 

This edition of ‘Panorama’ investigated how antique guns are being legally brought into the UK and ending up in the hands of criminals. It is explained that, under current legislation, it is legal to buy and sell guns provided commercially manufactured ammunition is no longer available.

 

Our programme team also attempted to source components needed to make homemade ammunition for two antique firearms they purchased. When doing so, our reporter Daniel Foggo explained that the website they were using “demands a firearms licence before it will sell some components”, however, others didn’t. 

 

The focus in this programme was on criminal use of legally obtained firearms, and we feel that it would be clear to our viewers that this episode was not implying that all owners of antique guns use them for criminal activity. That said, I’m sorry to hear that you feel we should have stated more clearly in this programme that not all legally obtained antique firearms are used in this way.

I hope this helps to explain our approach, and rest assured your concerns have been raised with the production team and senior management on our audience feedback report. These reports are among the most widely read sources of feedback within the BBC and help inform both current and future decisions.

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, Rossco89 said:

The reply I got from the BBC:-

Thank you for contacting us about BBC One’s ‘Legal Weapon: Panorama’ broadcast on 20 August. 

 

I understand you feel the programme was not impartial and failed to explain that firearm ownership is the UK is regulated. 

 

This edition of ‘Panorama’ investigated how antique guns are being legally brought into the UK and ending up in the hands of criminals. It is explained that, under current legislation, it is legal to buy and sell guns provided commercially manufactured ammunition is no longer available.

 

Our programme team also attempted to source components needed to make homemade ammunition for two antique firearms they purchased. When doing so, our reporter Daniel Foggo explained that the website they were using “demands a firearms licence before it will sell some components”, however, others didn’t. 

 

The focus in this programme was on criminal use of legally obtained firearms, and we feel that it would be clear to our viewers that this episode was not implying that all owners of antique guns use them for criminal activity. That said, I’m sorry to hear that you feel we should have stated more clearly in this programme that not all legally obtained antique firearms are used in this way.

I hope this helps to explain our approach, and rest assured your concerns have been raised with the production team and senior management on our audience feedback report. These reports are among the most widely read sources of feedback within the BBC and help inform both current and future decisions.

Good for you and well done. My letter includes the question of which components didn't require a license and which did, and if they were able to obtain primers online without either a license or via a RFD, why this online provider of components wasn't featured in the programme, and also, if this wasn't the case, why didn't they mention a crucial component to the making of ammunition was unobtainable other than with a license and via a RFD.

I am in no doubt that if they hadn't had the help of a forensic science lab', which had lawful access to such items, they wouldn't have been able to make the ammunition for the revolvers they'd bought.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Scully

[panoma1]

If the BBC, during their investigation, found a website/s where controlled components can be obtained without a FA ot a RFD cert, then have they reported this to the authorities?....if not, surely they are complicit in an offence/offence s under the firearms act?

[bluesj]

I'm guessing they didn't try to order and thing, a quick look on a few reloading site and only one (I think) had anything about needing a fac or having to be sent via a rfd their web site but that's not the same as selling it may come up when ordering.

[panoma1]

4 minutes ago, bluesj said:

I'm guessing they didn't try to order and thing, a quick look on a few reloading site and only one (I think) had anything about needing a fac or having to be sent via a rfd their web site but that's not the same as selling it may come up when ordering.

Well they made the claim! Should it not be investigated? And if as we both suspect, potential buyers would be prevented from buying when actually trying to order....then perhaps the BBC should apologise for shoddy and misleading journalism?

[Yellow Bear]

1 minute ago, panoma1 said:

Well they made the claim! Should it not be investigated? And if as we both suspect, potential buyers would be prevented from buying when actually trying to order....then perhaps the BBC should apologise for shoddy and misleading journalism?

Is a hard frost forecast for Hell then?

[The gouse]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/16591599.police-find-black-market-gun-factory-in-hailsham/

BBC Panorama did not know it was on its own door step  

 

[old man]

On 21/08/2018 at 09:14, Salopian said:

Well I sat and watched this sensational drivel which did not  one bit of good for the Black man in Britain . It was basically Rapper advert for Gang War Fair .

I see a few more were shot in London last night?

Come on Met . get a grip for mercies sake , you no doubt have a very good idea what is going on but because of PC and fear of someone playing the Race card you sit by and do very little .

Get one thing very straight , any de-activated weapon can be made functional by a determined engineer with a workshop at their disposal , ammunition , cases and components can be made or sourced . New Laws will do nothing except create red tape . The Lawless do not observe LAW.

Stop the tide of violence at source , in the Gangs and because of lack of education and severe penalties for criminals .

Call me a Dinosaur but bring back hardship in Jails , poor food , hard work and no privaliges and let us see where that gets us . Deportation to Colonies where a lot of our migrant vermin comes from may also help.

The featured Barrister was an embarrassment , put the kettle on Mother before it gets confiscated .

IMHO, the correct answer.

Law is meaningless to the ones who don't abide by it.

[Dekers]

Lets not blame the met or any other region for not solving crime, it is the perpetrators fault.

With regards firearms offences a tiny % is caused by legally held, so the vast majority is illegal.

And please don't come back on me with the racist card because it isn't, its a statistical fact, that the VAST majority of Firearms and Knife offences in the UK is Black on Black!

Once again, a  wonderful indictment of Sadiq Khah etc., comments, that immigration has been good for this country.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

Working in the trade does not grant you the ability to pluck figures out of thin air- I’ve been admonished for not being able to back a posting up so here I am asking for you to quote your source and not what you think you know.

Even Tony Buckland wouldn’t have made such a claim ?

My expertise? Absolutely nothing to do with the gun trade but quite a bit in European logistics and freight movement- if you’ve driven it, ate it, worn it or watched it then I’ve probably moved it. Luckily it now loads itself and I no longer have to get my hands dirty ....... Oh and a few contacts in Border Force and one in NCA

They do say it’s not what you know, but who you know- same with knowledge, it’s not what you think you know but what you actually know. I might not always be right, but I do try and base my opinions / statements on ‘fact’ 

 

A few contacts in the Border Force and one in the NCA.  You need to get to know a few more. The figure is nearer 5 million. Get one of your contacts to dispute that figure and let us know on what facts. It is a lot nearer my figure than the half a million. Oh - my information is based on knowing a lot more people in the various agencies. You are wrong - "fact".

Edited August 24, 2018 by Gordon R

[Jaymo]

GordonR

The reference was regarding illegal firearms outnumbering ‘historical’ weapons— not your favourite topic of immigration ?

[Graham M]

Did anyone see the way that the BBC started its online piece 

Quote

 

Guns are very tightly controlled in the UK. Those that end up on the black market often start off as legal guns - but become illegal because they are modified or their licence status changes.

For example, a legal gun covered by a firearms licence could be stolen from a farm or firearms dealer.