Springer vs pcp?

[strimmer_13]

2 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, you can buy 3 new KRAL NP 02s for the same price as a FX verminator, 2 for the price of the AA 410 and BSA R10 if i was going to buy one for long term a full spare set of seals would be purchased too. 

Spot on imo

 

[Ultrastu]

You can buy a full set of seals for it right now ? 

You think ? 

I havent checked but its not so likley 

Its your money spend it how you like. But i often see people moaning that they cant get spares for their gun .or cant find an exploded diagram and can anyone help with this model ? And get zero response. 

I wonder why

[strimmer_13]

10 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

You can buy a full set of seals for it right now ? 

You think ? 

I havent checked but its not so likley 

Its your money spend it how you like. But i often see people moaning that they cant get spares for their gun .or cant find an exploded diagram and can anyone help with this model ? And get zero response. 

I wonder why

Well ive a british falcon. Can i find parts, hardly. Help, Only and by select few. Others, the best in the game at their chosen time, Theoben, bust. Logan, bust. Not long ago i believe you bought a kofs, very british and renowned. 

[Mice!]

21 minutes ago, strimmer_13 said:

Well ive a british falcon. Can i find parts, hardly. Help, Only and by select few. Others, the best in the game at their chosen time, Theoben, bust. Logan, bust. Not long ago i believe you bought a kofs, very british and renowned. 

Quality lasts though, looking at Theoben if you go on the R7 forum guys on their can make you pretty much any part you need. Some of you may have seen the article in Airgunner where they built a Rapid through donations and fund raising then sold raffle tickets for the rifle raising around 4 grand i think.

Your not going to get this in twenty years time from Kral.

I'm sure there is an Air arms forum and BSA, because as Stu says there quality guns, I've heard a Falcon  forum mentioned but normally people saying they can't access it?

[Ultrastu]

40 minutes ago, strimmer_13 said:

Well ive a british falcon. Can i find parts, hardly. Help, Only and by select few. Others, the best in the game at their chosen time, Theoben, bust. Logan, bust. Not long ago i believe you bought a kofs, very british and renowned. 

Yes I have a kofs .a ylidiz and a mossberg. 

All cost less than £500 

But then again im not gonna be able to buy an English shot gun for less than 10k .so not really the same argument is it .also i dont think my shottys are gonna need new orings or start leaking air either .

Yes i might sound hypocritical but the difference between a cheap turkish  pcp air gun and and a decent british one is about £150 -250  .

So about an extra 30 % 

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Ultrastu

[Ultrastu]

Yeah  the likes of theoben , logun , webley and falcon went bust cos people bought cheap chinese guns and british manufacturers  suffered. 

[villaman]

BSA ultra will match any top price daystate **** pellet for pellet , I know had both and still have the ultra . Will never have another  over priced , over rated **** from daystate again . 

HW 100 in any format is a fantastic all round gun and that includes HW110 ,14 (10 for110),shot mag , best cocking and loading ,regulated , best silencer , super accurate . Very,very quiet . My money would go on a Hw100k that’s why I have two 

Edited March 10, 2019 by villaman

[strimmer_13]

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

Quality lasts though, looking at Theoben if you go on the R7 forum guys on their can make you pretty much any part you need. Some of you may have seen the article in Airgunner where they built a Rapid through donations and fund raising then sold raffle tickets for the rifle raising around 4 grand i think.

Your not going to get this in twenty years time from Kral.

Thats guys making parts who have knowledge, skill and machinery. As stated. So if inclined could these individuals not make a part for a armatis, a kral or hatsan? Not excatly off the shelf. 

 

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

Also i dont think my shottys are gonna need new orings or start leaking air either .

 

 

 

 

No, but likely parts might. Firing pins, stocks, springs, hammers, not really a problem with the mossburg. The others? As stated on this forum, trying to get a part from beretta can be a nightmare as an example

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

Yes i might sound hypocritical but the difference between a cheap turkish  pcp air gun and and a decent british one is about £150 -250  .

A lot of peoples budgets can be as low as this. Not everybodys budgets can blow this on a scope alone. I started my airgunning by a smk lion. Piece of junk but i killed my first rabbit with it. Then a smk b45-3 in .22. And a b2. Then a G10 (still got it). Cheap airguns are the life of airgunning, most poorer people will have to make do, as thats the budget. Ive gone on to have airarms, more bsas than i care, hws of all sorts, and now falcon, which i presume you were referring to me on asking for help. Trust me with these kind of comments ill be sure not to bother. Budget airgunning should be a thing of the past, only for the better off few from now on.... 

[oldypigeonpopper]

6 hours ago, strimmer_13 said:

Spot on imo

 

 

8 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, you can buy 3 new KRAL NP 02s for the same price as a FX verminator, 2 for the price of the AA 410 and BSA R10 if i was going to buy one for long term a full spare set of seals would be purchased to, but then my old vermy MK 1 will out last me ha ha

hello, i think the spares are interchangable but bagnel and kirkwood show spares on their web site, it called a Kral Puncher NP 02, any way it is still good VFM first PCP buy,  

[Mice!]

19 minutes ago, strimmer_13 said:

Thats guys making parts who have knowledge, skill and machinery. As stated. So if inclined could these individuals not make a part for a armatis, a kral or hatsan? Not excatly off the shelf. 

 

No, but likely parts might. Firing pins, stocks, springs, hammers, not really a problem with the mossburg. The others? As stated on this forum, trying to get a part from beretta can be a nightmare as an example

A lot of peoples budgets can be as low as this. Not everybodys budgets can blow this on a scope alone. I started my airgunning by a smk lion. Piece of junk but i killed my first rabbit with it. Then a smk b45-3 in .22. And a b2. Then a G10 (still got it). Cheap airguns are the life of airgunning, most poorer people will have to make do, as thats the budget. Ive gone on to have airarms, more bsas than i care, hws of all sorts, and now falcon, which i presume you were referring to me on asking for help. Trust me with these kind of comments ill be sure not to bother. Budget airgunning should be a thing of the past, only for the better off few from now on.... 

Don't think anyone is having a pop at you for asking for info on your Falcon, just that people ask and don't get much back, maybe too specialist?

I'm sure the guys making parts could make just about anything, but do the likes of kral come with a blow up of the parts? Or would they need to be reverse engineered.

And your right about budgets, a lot of folk started out with cheap springers open sights, and had success, but these days folk are spending £30 plus a month on phones so getting a rifle on credit won't bother them, if you look at most gun shops they have loads of second hand rifles that can save you a fortune on new, so for me if you were saving up you might as well wait a couple of months to pay that little bit extra.

[Neverforget]

On ‎03‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 10:59, old man said:

An Air Arms PCP could be all you need, easy to get serviced and very accurate too.

Plus 1

[villaman]

On 10/03/2019 at 17:29, Ultrastu said:

Yeah  the likes of theoben , logun , webley and falcon went bust cos people bought cheap chinese guns and british manufacturers  suffered. 

More rubbish spoken , they didn’t go bust because cheap Chinese guns 

[old man]

32 minutes ago, villaman said:

More rubbish spoken , they didn’t go bust because cheap Chinese guns 

Maybe not because of the price of imports but price of over technical home grown? Admittedly I know nothing of the makers or specifications of any mentioned but know from practical experience that eventually poor manufacture and over complexity kills the product.

Additionally FWIW my repairer loves Air Arms.

[old'un]

3 minutes ago, old man said:

Maybe not because of the price of imports but price of over technical home grown? Admittedly I know nothing of the makers or specifications of any mentioned but know from practical experience that eventually poor manufacture and over complexity kills the product.

Additionally FWIW my repairer loves Air Arms.

Yep, a bit like British Leyland.

[GingerCat]

One cnc machine is very much like the other regardless of whether the chap using it is Turkish or English. 

Not a fan of British manufacturing when the rivals are as good and cheaper. Clearly in the case of the cheap chinese airguns they are not as good. The Turkish ones however do appear to be pretty near the mark and over it in some case, for a lot less. 

[washerboy]

I've watched several articles on YouTube and a lot comes down to cost of manufacture, to built a new gun costs an absolute fortune. To then iron out all the troubles these guns have can cripple a company because they are not fully test before the production is released to the paying public 

[Dekers]

To answer the OP, a PCP will always beat a springer for accuracy, you will never find a springer in competition these days unless it is a springer Only competition.

Is a great springer better than a cheap PCP in the field is another question,if you're happy stick with it, if you want a bit more and can afford the extra then PCP EVERY day!

Springer to PCP is a major difference!

 

[Ultrastu]

5 hours ago, villaman said:

More rubbish spoken , they didn’t go bust because cheap Chinese guns 

What a load of claptrap .

[Whitebridges]

Will we ever see Chinese guns dominate the UK market the way British made guns dominated our domestic market?

Not a hope in hell.

 

[silverwolf54]

I have a BSA Ultra .177 which is a great Rifle for Hunting.Having Springers as well ,I thought the Ultra was faulty because it was so quiet and kept walking up to the target to see it I’d hit anything.

My only minus is the high cost of additional magazines, but as it is unlikely I’d take 40 shots in a session of Hunting Pigeons it’s not a problem.

If you started off with a well made but mid priced Rifle you could trade up to a  Daystate or Air Arms At a later stage.

 

[Ultrastu]

Ive run out of air in an ultra only twice when hunting. once on a great ratting sesh .And once when hide shooting woodies .thats it in nearly 10 years of hunting with bsa ultras  

 

[bruno22rf]

"Will we ever see Chinese guns dominate the UK market - not a hope in Hell" mmmmmm - If I told you 10 years ago that our car market would be flooded with carp Korean cars  you wouldn't have believed me - likewise the Early Japanese motorcycles were something to point and laugh at 30 years ago. The Chinese have the Engineering ability and financial might to take the Lions share of the market if, or when, they decide to.They can buy parts from outside suppliers in massive quantities thus cheaper but they will persevere in manufacturing parts themselves until they get it right - labour is cheaper than we could ever dream of so the West could not compete. When you consider that you can buy, say, a pair of Shorts, from a Chinese company and have them posted half way around the world (often faster than if you buy in the UK) for about a third of the price of a UK supplier, you have to admire their retail might.P.S.  bought a one piece mount from the bay of plenty about 6 months ago - £7 inc shipping from China and it's as good as any I have ever bought here.

Edited April 16, 2019 by bruno22rf

[Whitebridges]

1 hour ago, bruno22rf said:

"Will we ever see Chinese guns dominate the UK market - not a hope in Hell" mmmmmm - If I told you 10 years ago that our car market would be flooded with carp Korean cars  you wouldn't have believed me - likewise the Early Japanese motorcycles were something to point and laugh at 30 years ago. The Chinese have the Engineering ability and financial might to take the Lions share of the market if, or when, they decide to.They can buy parts from outside suppliers in massive quantities thus cheaper but they will persevere in manufacturing parts themselves until they get it right - labour is cheaper than we could ever dream of so the West could not compete. When you consider that you can buy, say, a pair of Shorts, from a Chinese company and have them posted half way around the world (often faster than if you buy in the UK) for about a third of the price of a UK supplier, you have to admire their retail might.P.S.  bought a one piece mount from the bay of plenty about 6 months ago - £7 inc shipping from China and it's as good as any I have ever bought here.

I mentioned "Chinese guns" no mention of Japanese or Korean products but i guess i can see where you are coming from. 

I retired last year but prior to that spent ten years doing business with Chinese businesses. It was to do with high end audio and video technology.  In a normal year i visited China 2-3 times a year, usually for ten days or more at a time and visited many many factories and business centres in Beijing, Shenzen, Dongguan, Hong Kong to name but a few. 

I have seen at first hand the superb manufacturing facilities in China. One especially sticks in the mind, a mobile phone business which made 3 million 'phones a month........on machines and plant made in Germany ! 

The best guess estimate at the moment is a Chinese population of 1.4 billion compared with 350m in Europe 370m in the USA. The powers that be have definitely focused businesses in China to concentrate on their domestic market, so this is what will happen. 

As for airguns, there is no domestic market in China, the masses are not allowed guns (some are but i said masses).   At the moment there is a minute export market but once Brexit measures kick in and hard new tax legislations enforced i think the Chinese will be up against it in our market, however i respect your opinion.                  

 

             

[Whitebridges]

Here's a point in question. The Artemis M30 a chinese air rifle thoroughbred. 

Brilliant concept, good looking if it floats your boat but read the interweb and youtube it's a failure! Can you find one in the UK?

Loads and loads of QA issues.

https://youtu.be/RF0tN5ps6jI

        

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

"Will we ever see Chinese guns dominate the UK market - not a hope in Hell" mmmmmm - If I told you 10 years ago that our car market would be flooded with carp Korean cars  you wouldn't have believed me - likewise the Early Japanese motorcycles were something to point and laugh at 30 years ago. The Chinese have the Engineering ability and financial might to take the Lions share of the market if, or when, they decide to.They can buy parts from outside suppliers in massive quantities thus cheaper but they will persevere in manufacturing parts themselves until they get it right - labour is cheaper than we could ever dream of so the West could not compete. When you consider that you can buy, say, a pair of Shorts, from a Chinese company and have them posted half way around the world (often faster than if you buy in the UK) for about a third of the price of a UK supplier, you have to admire their retail might.P.S.  bought a one piece mount from the bay of plenty about 6 months ago - £7 inc shipping from China and it's as good as any I have ever bought here.

 

1 hour ago, Whitebridges said:

I mentioned "Chinese guns" no mention of Japanese or Korean products but i guess i can see where you are coming from. 

I retired last year but prior to that spent ten years doing business with Chinese businesses. It was to do with high end audio and video technology.  In a normal year i visited China 2-3 times a year, usually for ten days or more at a time and visited many many factories and business centres in Beijing, Shenzen, Dongguan, Hong Kong to name but a few. 

I have seen at first hand the superb manufacturing facilities in China. One especially sticks in the mind, a mobile phone business which made 3 million 'phones a month........on machines and plant made in Germany ! 

The best guess estimate at the moment is a Chinese population of 1.4 billion compared with 350m in Europe 370m in the USA. The powers that be have definitely focused businesses in China to concentrate on their domestic market, so this is what will happen. 

As for airguns, there is no domestic market in China, the masses are not allowed guns (some are but i said masses).   At the moment there is a minute export market but once Brexit measures kick in and hard new tax legislations enforced i think the Chinese will be up against it in our market, however i respect your opinion.                  

 

             

big difference between air guns and cars, for me there is next to no market for air guns in this country which is why i don't think cheaper imports will take over, I've seen machines and product lines move to China and India because there is money to be made from the cheap labour.

Not many moving parts to go wrong on a mount Bruno, can't Imagine the Chinese or Indian manufacturers ever meeting the standards of Air arms or BSA.

And I'm always surprised that air guns are still being developed, look at The FX rifles, must take some investment to come up with those.