Brexit - merged threads

[12gauge82]

I think the country is stronger than that, I thought the UK population wouldn't have the steel to vote out at the last referendum and I'm pleased to have been proven wrong, I just pray that our weak politicians have the guts to have a hard brexit if necessary, if not we have no bargaining power.

[old man]

On 29/08/2018 at 09:26, Lord Geordie said:

"After 29 March 2019 they would be treated as a third party and would no longer have access to these areas," he said.

i bet it won't stop the French or the Spanish etc fishing British waters though ?

You know that will be true and being jolly good chaps will turn the other cheek?

On 29/08/2018 at 16:59, JohnfromUK said:

This:

Our government seem to have 'potentially' (if there is a 'deal') agreed to pay £39 billion for which we get .......... somewhere between nothing and very little.  I accept we will have to make a few payments to cover costs of things incurred in our membership (mainly pensions, which like those of our own civil service are not 'funded', but paid out of 'current account' income), but we should only be paying a smallish proportion of the pensions and it should come to nothing like £39 billion.  I did see one costed estimate that our total liability should be somewhere around £12 - 15 billion but others have speculated on 'up to £100 billion'.  Since the EU has no audited accounts, who can know what the real figure should be since they themselves don't seem to know what their future liabilities are.  They don't seem to be recorded anywhere.

Mrs May says if there is no deal on trade, then the payment is 'off the table'.  However as always lawyers support both sides of whether this is legal or not.  You can see the cave in coming a mile off .........

Since if we are taken to court, the relevant court is in The Hague ........ you can see whose side they will take.

What can happen if we are taken to a court we don't recognise? Will they send in the troops for non payment?

[old man]

On 30/08/2018 at 08:21, JohnfromUK said:

Probably continue - we have wound down our Navy to the extent we probably can't do much about it.  An aircraft carrier about the size of the Isle of Wight isn't of much use (though it makes politicians feel important) and costs so much money they can't afford either any more useful sized ships, or a full compliment of aircraft for the carrier - and needs about half the Navy personnel (excluding Admirals) to operate it.

Just need to send  out a fast jet. One warning should be enough with the jet backdraught?

[12gauge82]

Looks like the EU are starting to soften their narrative as the real possibility a hard brexit could happen as a result of their purposely inflexible and unreasonable negotiation stance, although any deal from our side must leave us free from any ties being an EU member entails, otherwise brexit hasn't happened!

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1011459/brexit-news-theresa-may-brexit-deal-latest-eu-dominic-raab-galileo-barnier

[dead eye alan]

Very good news May sayes NO to anouther vote!!! Sooooo get on and leave please.

[Gordon R]

I have not been impressed with Theresa May - she should be far stronger, given Labour's current disaster - but she said today that having a second Referendum would be a betrayal of democracy. I agree with her 100% .

[JRDS]

She knows a 2nd vote would see a bigger majority for leave, she doesn't need one anyway as she is hell bent on delivering BRINO.  She needs to be got rid off and soon.

[Bazooka Joe]

7 hours ago, dead eye alan said:

Very good news May sayes NO to anouther vote!!! Sooooo get on and leave please.

Couple that with what Barnier has said, looks like a  hard Brexit... the only way we are going to break the shackles.

BARNIER

[das]

On 01/09/2018 at 09:24, old man said:

You know that will be true and being jolly good chaps will turn the other cheek?

What can happen if we are taken to a court we don't recognise? Will they send in the troops for non payment?

'If you can't pay,  we will take it away ', Mr Junket and Frau Merkel will send in the Baliffs.

[matone]

13 hours ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Couple that with what Barnier has said, looks like a  hard Brexit... the only way we are going to break the shackles.

BARNIER

As Boris said yesterday'the fix is in'....we're being shafted and giving in via 'checquers'...theyre just play acting atm.

[old man]

On 02/09/2018 at 18:37, das said:

'If you can't pay,  we will take it away ', Mr Junket and Frau Merkel will send in the Baliffs.

Yep and we would be idiotic enough to pay.

[Rewulf]

No plans for an EU army.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/is-there-a-secret-plan-to-create-an-eu-army

https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/?gclid=CjwKCAjw_b3cBRByEiwAdG8WqtTmaSkkXHSKXLnjVDN-DXe4CYXJ4RudAWxchyuLpJHmzJ50fJ9eUxoCAaEQAvD_BwE

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/879322/eu-army-latest-5-countries-refuse-sign-up-france-germany-defence-force

From a Remain website in 2016.

THERE ARE NO PLANS FOR AN EU ARMY

There are absolutely no plans to create an EU ‘army’.

Even if there was such a proposal (and there really isn’t) it would require the unanimous agreement of every EU country before it could go ahead.

There is an EU ‘Common Defence policy’, agreed by all EU member states, including the UK, in the Treaty of the European Union.

This covers a wide array of policy areas ranging from humanitarian and rescue operations to peace-making and post-conflict stabilisation.

This is NOT the same as an ‘EU army’ that can go into battle.

Under the Treaty, the Member States themselves remain in charge of their defence policies, planning and investment.

The Lisbon Treaty stated:

"The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides.

"It shall in that case recommend to the member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements."

So, no decisions can be made on this defence policy without the unanimous support of all EU member states, including Britain.

Furthermore, if there ever was to be a proposal to develop the 'Common Defence Policy' say, into an EU army, this would require the consent of all EU member states Parliaments, including our Parliament in Westminster.

Furthermore, if there was to be an EU Army (which is not even being proposed), then that would clearly involve a transfer of new powers from the UK to the EU.

As such, under the European Union Act 2011, this would require a referendum of the British people before it could go ahead.

It should also be noted that Member States made it explicit in the Lisbon Treaty that ‘in particular, national security remains the sole responsibility of each Member State.’ (Article 4 (2) TEU).

So, in summary, there is no plan or proposal at all for there to be an EU Army, and if there was, it could not go ahead without the consent of our Parliament and a referendum in Britain.

The false claims by Vote Leave that there are plans to create a new EU army are, frankly, barmy.

• Report by Jon Danzig

 

Would that be a UK general with an EU flag on his arm at EUFORS HQ ?
Looking a bit sick about it too ?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/938096/jean-claude-junker-eu-army-military-mobility-plan-2025-european-union

I know what some on here will say, its just co operation ?
If thats the case, whats wrong with a Union Jack ?

More BS and lies.

[Newbie to this]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

No plans for an EU army.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/is-there-a-secret-plan-to-create-an-eu-army

https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/?gclid=CjwKCAjw_b3cBRByEiwAdG8WqtTmaSkkXHSKXLnjVDN-DXe4CYXJ4RudAWxchyuLpJHmzJ50fJ9eUxoCAaEQAvD_BwE

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/879322/eu-army-latest-5-countries-refuse-sign-up-france-germany-defence-force

From a Remain website in 2016.

THERE ARE NO PLANS FOR AN EU ARMY

There are absolutely no plans to create an EU ‘army’.

Even if there was such a proposal (and there really isn’t) it would require the unanimous agreement of every EU country before it could go ahead.

There is an EU ‘Common Defence policy’, agreed by all EU member states, including the UK, in the Treaty of the European Union.

This covers a wide array of policy areas ranging from humanitarian and rescue operations to peace-making and post-conflict stabilisation.

This is NOT the same as an ‘EU army’ that can go into battle.

Under the Treaty, the Member States themselves remain in charge of their defence policies, planning and investment.

The Lisbon Treaty stated:

"The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides.

"It shall in that case recommend to the member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements."

So, no decisions can be made on this defence policy without the unanimous support of all EU member states, including Britain.

Furthermore, if there ever was to be a proposal to develop the 'Common Defence Policy' say, into an EU army, this would require the consent of all EU member states Parliaments, including our Parliament in Westminster.

Furthermore, if there was to be an EU Army (which is not even being proposed), then that would clearly involve a transfer of new powers from the UK to the EU.

As such, under the European Union Act 2011, this would require a referendum of the British people before it could go ahead.

It should also be noted that Member States made it explicit in the Lisbon Treaty that ‘in particular, national security remains the sole responsibility of each Member State.’ (Article 4 (2) TEU).

So, in summary, there is no plan or proposal at all for there to be an EU Army, and if there was, it could not go ahead without the consent of our Parliament and a referendum in Britain.

The false claims by Vote Leave that there are plans to create a new EU army are, frankly, barmy.

• Report by Jon Danzig

 

Would that be a UK general with an EU flag on his arm at EUFORS HQ ?
Looking a bit sick about it too ?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/938096/jean-claude-junker-eu-army-military-mobility-plan-2025-european-union

I know what some on here will say, its just co operation ?
If thats the case, whats wrong with a Union Jack ?

More BS and lies.

Perhaps they plan to keep us in by force, or expand by force.

Remnants of the old Germany coming to light perhaps.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

Perhaps they plan to keep us in by force, or expand by force.

Remnants of the old Germany coming to light perhaps.

Without an army, the United states of Europe is just toothless noise.
It can threaten sanctions and fines to any member state, but it needs a  force to enforce them.

Shadows of 1930s Germany, maybe, I see it more like pre fall USSR , use a force from one region/state to occupy or enforce another, sometimes with an old rivalry to cause the fear factor.
Either way, they said this wasnt part of their plan, when it obviously is.
Same as 'No plans for further political or fiscal union' or 'No common tax policy'
There are lies, damn lies, and there are EU lies.

[Rewulf]

33 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

 

Remnants of the old Germany coming to light perhaps.

Just remembered something.

https://www.politico.eu/article/german-bomb-debate-goes-nuclear-nato-donald-trump-defense-spending/

I mean ,what could possible go wrong there ??

[12gauge82]

It's the EU way, same as when we joined the common market, just look what it has turned out to be, they won't stop until they have one super state under the control of an unelected EU commission, I find it incredible that we're on the tipping point so soon after the last German plan for world domination. The nativity of the remainiacs is incredible, theyd sleep walk like a pack of lemmings to the edge of the cliff, only waking up when it was too late plumiting towards certain doom, but its the leavers who are uneducated thickos who didn't know what they voted for ?

[JohnfromUK]

It always was the agenda; https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-juncker/juncker-grab-brexit-chance-to-forge-a-tighter-eu-idUKKCN1BO0OI

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It always was the agenda; https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-juncker/juncker-grab-brexit-chance-to-forge-a-tighter-eu-idUKKCN1BO0OI

“The wind is back in Europe’s sails,” Junker told the European Parliament, citing economic growth and the easing of a succession of crises — Greek debt, refugee inflows, the rise of eurokcepticism reflected in Brexit - that seemed to threaten the EU’s survival.

What a difference a year makes eh ?
Poland and Hungary in open rebellion for a variety of reasons.
Italy votes in a Eurosceptic coalition, again in open rebellion over finance and migrants.
Greek debt is the same as it was, just the bailouts have ended, wait and see what happens there now the EU banks have turned the tap off.
Swedish elections soon, where the right wing Eurosceptic party is expected to make big gains, and possibly be part of a coalition government.
The wind is back in Europes sails, I think not Mr Junker (hic)

 

[Vince Green]

On ‎02‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 16:58, Gordon R said:

I have not been impressed with Theresa May - she should be far stronger, given Labour's current disaster - but she said today that having a second Referendum would be a betrayal of democracy. I agree with her 100% .

I don't see the point at the last knockings of having a vote because by then its too late, which ever side you are on

[Paul1440]

Just for devilment.  

It will be intereting to see how Boris will approach his divorce.  What's the odds he'll  just be able to walk away.  

[pinfireman]

On 05/09/2018 at 11:33, Rewulf said:

“The wind is back in Europe’s sails,” Junker told the European Parliament, citing economic growth and the easing of a succession of crises — Greek debt, refugee inflows, the rise of eurokcepticism reflected in Brexit - that seemed to threaten the EU’s survival.

What a difference a year makes eh ?
Poland and Hungary in open rebellion for a variety of reasons.
Italy votes in a Eurosceptic coalition, again in open rebellion over finance and migrants.
Greek debt is the same as it was, just the bailouts have ended, wait and see what happens there now the EU banks have turned the tap off.
Swedish elections soon, where the right wing Eurosceptic party is expected to make big gains, and possibly be part of a coalition government.
The wind is back in Europes sails, I think not Mr Junker (hic)

 

Juncker must be getting drunker! Talks rubbish!

Barnier has indicated there may be movement over the Irish Border issue.....this was always going to be the case!  May sold out to Merkel and Brussels BEFORE Chequers!

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, pinfireman said:

.... BEFORE Chequers!

Chequers....A few days ago somebody in a comment thread on Richard North's blog made the amusing but frighteningly astute observation that it was as though despite having driven an electric car, and despite having had the mechanism explained repeatedly, the British nevertheless turned up with a horse  insisting that it be plugged in.

It really is the level of our so called 'negotiation' strategy. '

[Retsdon]

A good article. http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86987

And it's very well worth reading the Rogers speech referred to in its entirety. The man is nobody's fool. http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/RogersDublin.pdf

Edited September 8, 2018 by Retsdon

[Retsdon]

On 01/09/2018 at 11:24, old man said:

What can happen if we are taken to a court we don't recognise? Will they send in the troops for non payment?

No court needed. From the Rogers speech I  linked to above.

Let’s think it through.. The reality, in any breakdown scenario, is that any UK PM who felt obliged to say that the Withdrawal negotiations had reached a dead end, would refuse to pay the exit bills. And the inevitable response to that from all 27 in the Council the following day would be to say there would be no resumption of normal trading relations with the UK unless and until it had agreed to honour its full debts. In the meantime, the 27 would no doubt enact, at 27, the emergency provisions, which enabled whatever continuity in whichever sectors it deemed in its interests. That would not mean the complete cessation of all business. Of course not. It just means an entirely unilateral and deliberately asymmetric selection by the EU of where there will be continuity and where there will not.That is not taking back control. That is giving it up.

The EU would calculate that the UK would be back at the table with its chequebook out within the week. So, to sum up, we know that those who argue for “no deal”......

 

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

No court needed. From the Rogers speech I  linked to above.

Let’s think it through.. The reality, in any breakdown scenario, is that any UK PM who felt obliged to say that the Withdrawal negotiations had reached a dead end, would refuse to pay the exit bills. And the inevitable response to that from all 27 in the Council the following day would be to say there would be no resumption of normal trading relations with the UK unless and until it had agreed to honour its full debts. In the meantime, the 27 would no doubt enact, at 27, the emergency provisions, which enabled whatever continuity in whichever sectors it deemed in its interests. That would not mean the complete cessation of all business. Of course not. It just means an entirely unilateral and deliberately asymmetric selection by the EU of where there will be continuity and where there will not.That is not taking back control. That is giving it up.

The EU would calculate that the UK would be back at the table with its chequebook out within the week. So, to sum up, we know that those who argue for “no deal”......

 

Again I don't see it that way. Anything we buy from the EU member states, we can buy from elsewhere. It's the EU member states that would be back at the table with cap in hand not the UK. We have many non EU Countries waiting to trade, the EU is not the be all and end all with regards to trade, the World is a big place.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Newbie to this