Brexit - merged threads

[old man]

52 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

Since tye vote, its been 4-1. Not just those two dates. 

Oh and the EU have unsurprisingly said no to changing its stance. Time to just walk away i think. 

 

I sadly have to agree, walk away!

How disMay is allowed to keep hawking her stupid exit deal around indicates the probable conspiracy within our politics to keep us in? She personally along with Major and all of the back room bods who have created and maintain a situation where our country is continually diminished should be having to answer personally in our courts for their treachery? But, that's just a very personal point of view.

 

[Retsdon]

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/

Should be printed verbatim in every newspaper in the country. He fully accepts the referendum result, but is in despair over the fog of ignorance - a lot if it wilful -surrounding both the Remainder and Brexiter wings of the political and media 'debate'.

And while Rogers speech on the reality of Brexit negotiation is an enlightening, if depressing, read, the other thread on here about the homeless got me thinking. And it's interesting how a country's national life can be similar to an individuals. I've known more that a couple of people born into comfortable middle-class life for whom the notion of being poor or without means or without friends and family would have been unthinkable in former years. And yet they've gone on to finish their days basically in the gutter. And it's surprising how often what might previously have been a  slow descent was catastrophically accelerated into unthinkably bad circumstances by a single bad decision, either personal or financial, that was predicated on wishful thinking and a refusal to acknowledge unpalatable reality.

I have a depressing premonition that when the history books get to be written a hundred years from now, that Brexit will rank alongside a decision like selling the house and moving to Thailand to marry the girl and run a hotel on the beach. A beautiful idea which leads to a decision made for all the right reasons, but sadly....

On the horizon I can see nothing but shattered illusions. I hope I'm wrong.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Retsdon

[Vince Green]

8 hours ago, yod dropper said:

BBC Question Time

6th December. Main topic: Brexit. 

1 Leaver. 4 Remainers.

13th December. Main topic. Brexit. 

1 Leaver. 4 Remainers.

Make of that what you will.

It was the same on BBC Breakfast TV this week. They were doing a visit to a covered market I think it was in Derby. Going round interviewing supposedly random stall holders the majority said they had voted to leave but if there was a second vote they would go with remain. Really? hand picked candidates to suit their agenda  would say. 

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, Retsdon said:

I have a depressing premonition that when the history books get to be written a hundred years from now, that Brexit will rank alongside a decision like selling the house and moving to Thailand to marry the girl and run a hotel on the beach. A beautiful idea which leads to a decision made for all the right reasons, but sadly....

On the horizon I can see nothing but shattered illusions. I hope I'm wrong.

And I have a completely different premonition, and at the moment that is all they are.

Mine requires the government to actually deliver Brexit not some watered down version.

I truly hope you are wrong as well, but at this moment in time I'm not optimistic we will ever find out.

[bostonmick]

I believe that we are witnessing the demise of democracy in this country. The people voted the Parliament stated they would deliver the peoples wish. Yet up to now everything points to us being landed with a situation that nobody voted for. As for the Irish so called problem if the UK had never joined the EU would Southern Ireland have been refused membership because of no hard border to the north. All this farce that is there now is just a smoke screen until the non exit of the EU happens. 

[Retsdon]

43 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

And I have a completely different premonition, and at the moment that is all they are.

Well, yes and no. I can only plead that you read Sir Ivan's speech in its entirety. He makes a number of very specific points. Perhaps it's possible to refute them -I don't know, - but to just airily dismiss his concerns as a lot of scaremongering rubbish as so many do isn't helpful in the least. What would you think of someone who took their family to sea in a boat that a qualified marine surveyor had declared to be fundamentally un-seaworthy? Would it be OK because  the kids had been clamouring to get afloat?

Edited December 14, 2018 by Retsdon

[Danger-Mouse]

12 hours ago, yod dropper said:

BBC Question Time

6th December. Main topic: Brexit. 

1 Leaver. 4 Remainers.

13th December. Main topic. Brexit. 

1 Leaver. 4 Remainers.

Make of that what you will.

Isn't that BBC policy?

On a side note I see Angela Raynor was taught maths by Diane Abbot. Last night she (Angela Raynor) stated that we do 60% of our trade with the rest of the world, and 44% with the EU.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I see that hasbeen Bliar has raised his head above the parapet again!

 

https://news.sky.com/story/tony-blair-makes-fresh-pitch-for-peoples-vote-on-brexit-11580388

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Well, yes and no. I can only plead that you read Sir Ivan's speech in its entirety. He makes a number of very specific points.

He makes a lot of very specific assumptions too, he seems to 'know' how its going to be on the outside, he seems to 'know' there will be a 2nd Ref.
But most of all he is very biased towards remain.

 

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

What would you think of someone who took their family to sea in a boat that a qualified marine surveyor had declared to be fundamentally un-seaworthy? Would it be OK because  the kids had been clamouring to get afloat?

Does the qualified marine surveyor guarantee a safe journey if he gives the boat the OK ?
Does his condemnation of the boat guarantee a tragedy ?

You might think the analogy is err..watertight, but if marine experts were always right, no boat would ever sink.

Like wise financial experts routinely get it wrong, economic experts see financial crashes coming that never materialise , then fail to see the ones that do.
The other issue , the elephant in the room, is this.
What if your metaphorical marine surveyor condemns your chosen boat, because he wants you to sail in his friends leaky tub ?

[panoma1]

So it seems it may boil down to another referendum being forced on the UK electorate, because it is claimed, getting an agreed Brexit deal is impossible? We must ask ourselves why? Is it because the EU don't want to give us one, and/or because the UK side don't want one!....we all know nothing is impossible, assuming the two parties truly wish to secure an agreement!

Whichever it is, if Westminster force another referendum........after all the pro remain propaganda, the Brexit negativity and the project fear tactics they, and their co conspirators have employed, they have surely busted the myth of the UK being a democracy, by stealing Brexit off the people of the UK?

 

[besty57]

On referendum day I was in two minds which way to vote,but after thinking about it I had to go with my heart,and I voted leave ,

Now if there's another referendum, which I don't agree with, I will with all the so called facts out there, still be voting leave,

But this time my head & my heart are telling me that is the right decision, 

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

he seems to 'know' how its going to be on the outside, he seems to 'know' there will be a 2nd Ref.

His words ' .....Which, as I have said before, is where David Cameron sought to entrench the U.K. – outside political, monetary, banking, fiscal Union, outside Schengen, and with a pick and choose approach to what used to be the third pillar of justice and home affairs. His was the last attempt to amplify and entrench British exceptionalism WITHIN the EU legal order.

It failed. A majority voted to leave altogether.

And when they did, they were not told that, at the end of the withdrawal phase of the negotiation, there would be another vote on whether they meant it, now that they saw the terms. We can’t rewrite the history of what happened...."

Nothing there mentioning  a second referendum. Quite the opposite in fact.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

But most of all he is very biased towards remain.

Yes he is. So what? Perhaps he is 'biased' because he fully appreciates the gravity of the situation facing the country. And perhaps he has what he considers to be the best interests of the country at heart?  As I said, he raises a number of very specific points. Do you think they're worthy of consideration, or is he just a frontman for Project Fear? It's basically either or...

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Well, yes and no. I can only plead that you read Sir Ivan's speech in its entirety. He makes a number of very specific points. Perhaps it's possible to refute them -I don't know, - but to just airily dismiss his concerns as a lot of scaremongering rubbish as so many do isn't helpful in the least. What would you think of someone who took their family to sea in a boat that a qualified marine surveyor had declared to be fundamentally un-seaworthy? Would it be OK because  the kids had been clamouring to get afloat?

But, there are many equally qualified who would dispute what he says and the undeniable fact is no one knows. So yes it is completely scaremongering.

As for the family and the boat. They might be fine, if they had got a second opinion and it stayed afloat, people can be entirely wrong no matter how qualified they claim to be. Although in your analogy the doom and gloom was right, same as with Brexit because I can only assume that you are and always were for the UK staying.

I know you say you would have voted leave, but I don't believe it, much like the scaremongering.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Newbie to this

[Retsdon]

11 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

here are many equally qualified who would dispute what he says

For example?

13 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

So yes it is completely scaremongering.

"Both fervent leavers and fervent remainers as well as No 10 seem to me now to seek to delegitimise a priori every version of the world they don’t support." 

 You're proving his point.

16 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

I can only assume that you are and always were for the UK staying.

I know you say you would have voted leave, but I don't believe it, much like the scaremongering.

I have plenty of faults, but dishonesty isn't among them. Anyway, never mind. Whatever happens is going to happen and I"m not on this site to fight with people. I just worry that the country is sleep-walking into catastrophe.

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

And when they did, they were not told that, at the end of the withdrawal phase of the negotiation, there would be another vote on whether they meant it, now that they saw the terms. We can’t rewrite the history of what happened...."

Nothing there mentioning  a second referendum. Quite the opposite in fact.

Im sorry , but what does that say , right there, does it mean parliament voting or a 2nd Ref, it makes no odds, because parliament in their infinite wisdom of not actually wanting to leave, are trying to force a 2nd Ref. via the back door.
And hoping no one will notice !

 

30 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Yes he is. So what? Perhaps he is 'biased' because he fully appreciates the gravity of the situation facing the country. And perhaps he has what he considers to be the best interests of the country at heart?  As I said, he raises a number of very specific points. Do you think they're worthy of consideration, or is he just a frontman for Project Fear? It's basically either or...

So what ? So hes biased toward remain ? Not perhaps !
But we have to take his sage advice on board ?
He raises a number of opinions, which are influenced by his bias, thats it really.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

What if your metaphorical marine surveyor condemns your chosen boat, because he wants you to sail in his friends leaky tub ?

This

[Retsdon]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im sorry , but what does that say , right there, does it mean parliament voting or a 2nd Ref,

No, it doesn't. In massive bold letters, above my initial quote  - First Lesson: It has of course to be that “Brexit means Brexit”. He's directing this at the people pushing for a second referendum.

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

He raises a number of opinions, which are influenced by his bias, thats it really.

I would suggest that it's the other way around. The reality of the situation (what you call his opinions) influences his opinion (what you call his bias).Anyway, how about some specifics. What about this one?

"Well, just wait till the trade negotiations. The solidarity of the remaining Member States will be with the major fishing Member States, not with the U.K. The solidarity will be with Spain, not the U.K., when Madrid makes Gibraltar-related demands in the trade negotiation endgame. The solidarity will be with Cyprus when it says it wants to avoid precedents which might be applied to Turkey.

I could go on. And on… The Free Trade Agreement talks will be tougher than anything we have seen to date."

Is he wrong?

Or this one?

" Brexit is a process not an event. And the EU, while strategically myopic, is formidably good at process against negotiating opponents. We have to be equally so, or we will get hammered. Repeatedly. One cannot seriously simultaneously advance the arguments that the EU has morphed away from the common market we joined, and got into virtually every nook and cranny of U.K. life, eroding sovereignty across whole tracts of the economy, internal and external security, AND that we can extricate ourselves from all that in a trice, recapture our sovereignty and rebuild the capability of the U.K. state to govern and regulate itself in vast areas where it had surrendered sovereignty over the previous 45 years."

Or this?

"It is, in the end, the total absence of a serious realistic plan for the process of Brexit as well as a serious coherent conception of a post Brexit destination, which has delivered this denouement to stage 1 of what will be, whether Brexit proponents like it or not, a much longer process.

For the next stage, we need much less self-absorption, a vastly clearer, less self-deceiving understanding of the incentives on the other side of the table, and a less passive approach to the construction of the process. We need serious substance not plausible bull****."

Personally I can't see grounds for objection to what he's saying. This isn't bias, it's someone telling our politicians and media to shape up.

 

[Retsdon]

"Particularly as, it seems to me, some Brexit opponents have now taken up their own “revolutionary defeatism”, seemingly yearning for the worst outcome possible from the negotiations, and political paralysis here in the hope that this will deliver the masses from their “false consciousness” of June 2016 and drive the case for a second referendum. The fact that the European question has helped turn our political debate both somewhat, indeed sometimes seriously, mad and increasingly polarised and toxic should, I think, worry us all. It’s hard, in my view, to think of anything that would toxify it more than a further referendum. But purist revolutionaries have spawned purist counter-revolutionaries."

From another excellent Rogers speech, this one from Cambridge.

https://share.trin.cam.ac.uk/sites/public/Comms/Rogers_brexit_as_revolution.pdf
 

[Newbie to this]

57 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

For example?

David Collins

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Both fervent leavers and fervent remainers as well as No 10 seem to me now to seek to delegitimise a priori every version of the world they don’t support." 

 You're proving his point.

Not really, you completely ignored my statement that 'no one knows' so I consider his doom and gloom as scaremongering.

59 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I have plenty of faults, but dishonesty isn't among them. Anyway, never mind. Whatever happens is going to happen

Maybe you would have voted Leave, I don't know, but like I said you don’t come across that way. 

59 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I"m not on this site to fight with people.

We are not fighting

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

I just worry that the country is sleep-walking into catastrophe

And we are back full circle, I'm not worried, I think we will be just fine and the EU is in for the catastrophe. But most importantly No one knows!

[Dave-G]

58 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

This

Or what of all the marine surveyor inspected boats that could have been turned back before they reached half way into the Mediterranean - which is what is very likely a large part of the hidden agenda of fighting to keep us in the EU. We've all seen the tinternet videos - which most mainstream media don't report about those economic migrants abusing the countries that accepted their asylum pleas.

One has to wonder about how that measures up to the establishment screwing up about making high speed broadband available for everyone.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Dave-G

[das]

I'd lik to move on and away from all this carp and badgering and having to be governed by a bunch of bleeding chimps.
I would lke to move to Switzerland please, but, I'm too old and I havn't the money.
But I voted leave the first time and I will vote leave again if a  further refererendum is called  rather than giving in
to our **** useless goverment ******.
Rant over!!!!!

Edited December 14, 2018 by das

[Rewulf]

29 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

No, it doesn't. In massive bold letters, above my initial quote  - First Lesson: It has of course to be that “Brexit means Brexit”. He's directing this at the people pushing for a second referendum.

Yes he SAYS that, then spends most of the rest of the speech telling us what a mistake weve made and how terrible its going to be.
Im not being funny , but Ive been hearing that tired old line for 2 years now , and its getting boring.

 

32 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

"Well, just wait till the trade negotiations. The solidarity of the remaining Member States will be with the major fishing Member States, not with the U.K. The solidarity will be with Spain, not the U.K., when Madrid makes Gibraltar-related demands in the trade negotiation endgame. The solidarity will be with Cyprus when it says it wants to avoid precedents which might be applied to Turkey.

I could go on. And on… The Free Trade Agreement talks will be tougher than anything we have seen to date."

What trade negotiations ! ?
Hes assuming , again, we take Mays deal, remember , that deal she darent even put before the house, because everyone says they wont pass it, thats not even proper Brexit, and costs £40 bn.
So , is he jumping the gun, or does he know something the government doesnt ?

 

36 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Brexit is a process not an event. And the EU, while strategically myopic, is formidably good at process against negotiating opponents. We have to be equally so, or we will get hammered. Repeatedly. One cannot seriously simultaneously advance the arguments that the EU has morphed away from the common market we joined, and got into virtually every nook and cranny of U.K. life, eroding sovereignty across whole tracts of the economy, internal and external security, AND that we can extricate ourselves from all that in a trice, recapture our sovereignty and rebuild the capability of the U.K. state to govern and regulate itself in vast areas where it had surrendered sovereignty over the previous 45 years."

Or this?

"It is, in the end, the total absence of a serious realistic plan for the process of Brexit as well as a serious coherent conception of a post Brexit destination, which has delivered this denouement to stage 1 of what will be, whether Brexit proponents like it or not, a much longer process.

For the next stage, we need much less self-absorption, a vastly clearer, less self-deceiving understanding of the incentives on the other side of the table, and a less passive approach to the construction of the process. We need serious substance not plausible ********."

Personally I can't see grounds for objection to what he's saying. This isn't bias, it's someone telling our politicians and media to shape up.

All sounds very self indulgent to me .
'I know better than all you lot, so do it like I say' He assumes (wrongly) that the government really wants to leave, when, if they thought they could get away with it, they would cancel the whole thing in an instant.
Or is he really that naive ?
Is he just stating the obvious ?
He keeps talking about how difficult its going to be, but I dont think anyone thought different.
What makes it more difficult is when our negotiators went in on their knees offering everything bar the kitchen sink !

Have £39 bn , you want to keep out fishing grounds, no problem, you want Northern Ireland , Ahh , slight problem we cant govern without its MPs , we ll see what we can do, 2 year transition period, maybe we can get the public to change their minds by making such a pigging mess of it by then !
I could go on, but you need to take those blue starry specs off see it all for what it is.
Remain via stealth.

[Paul223]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

[besty57]

3 minutes ago, Paul223 said:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

Done

[Yellow Bear]

7 minutes ago, Paul223 said:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

Done