Brexit - merged threads

[12gauge82]

I've got to the point I'd almost take another referendum, it would be completely undemocratic and wrong but something like leave (wto brexit) or remain (article 50 revoked and we stay) and if leave wins again, no ifs or buts we're out (which is obviously what should have already happened) , the problem is, they will never let us leave under the current situation and as much as it pains me to say it, I'd rather stay than take May's deal, it's awful and is the worst of both worlds. 

[Mice!]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I've got to the point I'd almost take another referendum, it would be completely undemocratic and wrong but something like leave (wto brexit) or remain (article 50 revoked and we stay) and if leave wins again, no ifs or buts we're out (which is obviously what should have already happened) , the problem is, they will never let us leave under the current situation and as much as it pains me to say it, I'd rather stay than take May's deal, it's awful and is the worst of both worlds. 

Maybe that's the plan, a deal so bad people would rather stay??

and if there is another vote, then there will always be another vote, with no outcome just a continuation of the mess there is now.

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Maybe that's the plan, a deal so bad people would rather stay??

and if there is another vote, then there will always be another vote, with no outcome just a continuation of the mess there is now.

Your right of course. The failure of our political system and this parliament to action the clear decision of the people when they were asked in the largest vote this country has ever known is a stain on our supposed democratic system that can never be removed, I believe there will be serious consequences that will ripple down the years from this, not to mention the faith in our political system that has been completely lost as the illusion of democracy has been shattered in front of our eyes. 

[oowee]

23 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Your right of course. The failure of our political system and this parliament to action the clear decision of the people when they were asked in the largest vote this country has ever known is a stain on our supposed democratic system that can never be removed, I believe there will be serious consequences that will ripple down the years from this, not to mention the faith in our political system that has been completely lost as the illusion of democracy has been shattered in front of our eyes. 

The whole fiasco is as you say a failure of our political system. A system that can only deal with binary issues, when the majority of the public are looking for mostly a middle ground. I suspect that a huge majority of people don't want to be governed by the EU, want a fair trade deal, want all the tourist benefits of the EU, want to control immigration but that was not an option. We need a more consensual political system, rather than one that relies upon and works through confrontation. 

[panoma1]

31 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Maybe that's the plan, a deal so bad people would rather stay??

 

I have thought that ever since we heard about her "deal" it was further reinforced for me by her acceptance of no "no deal" Brexit!

She and a majority of the rest of Parliament are remainers, they have sought a way to hide the fact that they are trying to stop us exiting the EU....And not appear responsible.......if they can pull it off? They think they will avoid paying the price of their treachery at the ballot box!

The EU want us to stay for our money.....so they will do what they can to help May and Parliament frustrate Brexit!

conspiracy theory? You bet!

I note the ballot paper parliamentarians are being given today, for the "indicative" vote is reported to have a number of options..........I assume it will be secret/unattributable, so individuals and their preferences remain anonymous?.........And unaccountable!

[hedge]

I think that was May's and Junker's plan from the word go.

Junkers - We don't want you to leave the EU

May - Neither do I

J - Lets waste 2 years `negotiating` a **** `deal` that effectively keeps the UK tied to the EU if you leave, and everyone will want to stay instead.

M - Good idea - I'll act like it's the best deal over, run the clock down and they'll have to accept it or revoke A50. I'll make sure that they don't go for a No Deal Brexit, because I'll suggest the sky might fall on their heads. I might take a lot of flak for it though.

J - Don't worry -  there's a job for life here if you want it. We call it the EU Gravy Train

M - Nice one. 

J - You coming over again tonight?

M - Sure

J - Dress sexy...

[12gauge82]

11 minutes ago, hedge said:

I think that was May's and Junker's plan from the word go.

Junkers - We don't want you to leave the EU

May - Neither do I

J - Lets waste 2 years `negotiating` a **** `deal` that effectively keeps the UK tied to the EU if you leave, and everyone will want to stay instead.

M - Good idea - I'll act like it's the best deal over, run the clock down and they'll have to accept it or revoke A50. I'll make sure that they don't go for a No Deal Brexit, because I'll suggest the sky might fall on their heads. I might take a lot of flak for it though.

J - Don't worry -  there's a job for life here if you want it. We call it the EU Gravy Train

M - Nice one. 

J - You coming over again tonight?

M - Sure

J - Dress sexy...

😂😂😂 I just spat my coffee out. 

[Scully]

11 minutes ago, hedge said:

I think that was May's and Junker's plan from the word go.

Junkers - We don't want you to leave the EU

May - Neither do I

J - Lets waste 2 years `negotiating` a **** `deal` that effectively keeps the UK tied to the EU if you leave, and everyone will want to stay instead.

M - Good idea - I'll act like it's the best deal over, run the clock down and they'll have to accept it or revoke A50. I'll make sure that they don't go for a No Deal Brexit, because I'll suggest the sky might fall on their heads. I might take a lot of flak for it though.

J - Don't worry -  there's a job for life here if you want it. We call it the EU Gravy Train

M - Nice one. 

J - You coming over again tonight?

M - Sure

J - Dress sexy...

There could be more truth in that than you think. May will resign shortly, but in a couple of years or so will end up with a position on the gravy train along with other has been a like the Kinnocks. Let’s face it, it’s not like we can vote them out. 🙂

Then in another couple of years Blair will stand for the position of President of the United States of Europe, elected by anyone but us. 👍

[Mice!]

25 minutes ago, hedge said:

J - Dress sexy...

sexy and you know it! 

very funny, now imagine Corbyn and Abbott doing it 🤣🤣🤣🤢

[hedge]

21 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

😂😂😂 I just spat my coffee out. 

Whatever floats your boat! ☺️

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

There could be more truth in that than you think. May will resign shortly, but in a couple of years or so will end up with a position on the gravy train along with other has been a like the Kinnocks. Let’s face it, it’s not like we can vote them out. 🙂

Then in another couple of years Blair will stand for the position of President of the United States of Europe, elected by anyone but us. 👍

Which bit - EU conspiracy or `dress sexy.....`? 😣

I know I said it in jest, but I do firmly believe that this deal was effectively done and dusted a long time ago.

`President Blair` has a nice ring to it. Not.

[old man]

38 minutes ago, Scully said:

There could be more truth in that than you think. May will resign shortly, but in a couple of years or so will end up with a position on the gravy train along with other has been a like the Kinnocks. Let’s face it, it’s not like we can vote them out. 🙂

Then in another couple of years Blair will stand for the position of President of the United States of Europe, elected by anyone but us. 👍

I admire the view from your crystal ball.

[Mice!]

So @oowee JRM is now saying he'll back Mays deal, what have you said to him??

is it bad deal rather than stay in?

[old man]

26 minutes ago, hedge said:

Whatever floats your boat! ☺️

Which bit - EU conspiracy or `dress sexy.....`? 😣

I know I said it in jest, but I do firmly believe that this deal was effectively done and dusted a long time ago.

`President Blair` has a nice ring to it. Not.

DisMay, Bliar, Junket, Barmier and Tush, Name of a new group for entry into Euro Trash? Oops, sorry meant EuroVision for the future?

Edited March 27, 2019 by old man

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The whole fiasco is as you say a failure of our political system. A system that can only deal with binary issues, when the majority of the public are looking for mostly a middle ground. I suspect that a huge majority of people don't want to be governed by the EU, want a fair trade deal, want all the tourist benefits of the EU, want to control immigration but that was not an option. We need a more consensual political system, rather than one that relies upon and works through confrontation. 

Now were talking 

The thing stopping all of those things being possible, is the ultimate aims of the EU.

The sooner the whole population of Europe realise that the Brussels machine is NOT about protecting the rights and wants of the PEOPLE of Europe , or ensuring trade and commerce within and without Europe is smooth and seemless.

Its about protected the project, and ITS interests.
The Lisbon Treaty doesnt care about the ordinary man or woman, its about creating federal Europe, a superstate, that the vast majority do not want, and many do not even know its framework already exists.

1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction 
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020

 

Now does it become clear why we have to leave ASAP  ?

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Now does it become clear why we have to leave ASAP  ?

Not everybody believes that is correct;

See this detailed commentary  https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

[hedge]

20 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Now were talking 

The thing stopping all of those things being possible, is the ultimate aims of the EU.

The sooner the whole population of Europe realise that the Brussels machine is NOT about protecting the rights and wants of the PEOPLE of Europe , or ensuring trade and commerce within and without Europe is smooth and seemless.

Its about protected the project, and ITS interests.
The Lisbon Treaty doesnt care about the ordinary man or woman, its about creating federal Europe, a superstate, that the vast majority do not want, and many do not even know its framework already exists.

1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction 
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020

 

Now does it become clear why we have to leave ASAP  ?

I've read a lot of stuff about the Lisbon Treaty and `apparently ` a lot of it is not as cut and dried as it appears. `Apparently` a lot of the points are not valid and not true. #projectfear

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

The only problem is that I don't know who to believe anymore. I can't trust what I read.

I still think we would be better off outside of the EU, although I cannot offer any specfic arguement other than my dislike/distrust of the EU Superstate and where that will be in 20 years time. That is not xenophobia, but a fear of loss of sovereignty and inability to make decisions at a UK level. 

I believe in free market economics, and although a No Deal Brexit would be painful in the short term (2-3 years), we would be a lot better off in the long run. 

I do think that democracy and the political systems have taken a hammering. At the next GE I'll be seriously considering my preferences.

I think that only history will judge who was `right` or `wrong` and we don't have the benefit of hindsight.

#slidingdoors

Edited March 27, 2019 by hedge

[JRDS]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I've got to the point I'd almost take another referendum, it would be completely undemocratic and wrong but something like leave (wto brexit) or remain (article 50 revoked and we stay) and if leave wins again, no ifs or buts we're out (which is obviously what should have already happened) , the problem is, they will never let us leave under the current situation and as much as it pains me to say it, I'd rather stay than take May's deal, it's awful and is the worst of both worlds. 

The choice would be Mays Deal or Remain.

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, hedge said:

stuff about the Lisbon Treaty and `apparently ` a lot of it is not as cut and dried as it appears. `Apparently` a lot of the points are not valid and not true.

I think you are right - see https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

13 minutes ago, hedge said:

The only problem is that I don't know who to believe anymore. I can't trust what I read.

Quite

14 minutes ago, hedge said:

I still think we would be better off outside of the EU, although I cannot offer any specfic arguement other than my dislike/distrust of the EU Superstate and where that will be in 20 years time. That is not xenophobia, but a fear of loss of sovereignty and inability to make decisions at a UK level. 

 I believe in free market economics, and although a No Deal Brexit would be painful in the short term (2-3 years), we would be a lot better off in the long run.  

I do think that democracy and the political systems have taken a hammering.

Agreed

[oowee]

I cant see all the above as i am waiting for breakfast on sea front at weston, but i can see a long list of garbage about eu aims. I stopped at the bit about being in the euro by 2022 lol.

[mick miller]

That Lisbon treaty stuff is all bobbins btw. John posted the full fact link which debunks most, if not all of it. Regardless of whether it is true or not it doesn't change my belief that I would rather not be part of federation and be subject to the rulings of two separate Parliaments, rather than just the one over which I have some semblance of direct control.

This whole process has become a dogs breakfast, partly due to being led by an individual with a declared interest in not leaving the EU and partly due to the utter ineptitude and inability of those that campaigned for decades to leave. I'm not sure about you but I would have thought that in all that time a viable exit process and terms of any on-going relationship could have at least been thought about, if not fully fleshed out. It appears that this is not the case however.

Given the choice of this crappy deal, revocation of A.50 or WTO I would say the least worst, but by no means, most ideal option is to remain part of the EU. I would prefer the clean break option, but as no substantial thought has been undertaken as to how this could work within a kingdom united only by its differences without creating problems in the long term in Northern Ireland and, in the short term, shortages of foods and medicines in the UK as a whole I see no other sensible option left?

It may well have been the 'plan' all along, but I rather think that politics is not intelligent enough for this kind of social engineering and pre-planning, especially given the surprise result of the referendum in the first place. I am sure that this disaster is all just a result of utter, political fecklessness.

Edited March 27, 2019 by mick miller

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, oowee said:

I cant see all the above as i am waiting for breakfast on sea front at weston, but i can see a long list of garbage about eu aims. I stopped at the bit about being in the euro by 2022 lol.

I know hilarious isnt it ?

I mean its not like the EU ever misleads or lies about anything is it ?

There are no plans for an EU army is there ?

The only way to way to extend A50 is by unanimous vote of the EU 27 council ?

There are no plans for a federal superstate?

50 minutes ago, hedge said:

I've read a lot of stuff about the Lisbon Treaty and `apparently ` a lot of it is not as cut and dried as it appears. `Apparently` a lot of the points are not valid and not true. #projectfear

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

Lets examine this, besides the fact that I dont trust FULLFACT as being as unbiased as people think, in this case they are being highly contradictory .

Number 1 on the list about the veto.

1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.

Full fact says this is WRONG .
'Depending on the type of issue it is voting on, it has three different standards for passing laws—a simple majority (where 15 out of the 28 states must agree); “qualified majority” (where laws must be approved by at least 55% of states, that have to represent at least 65% of the EU’s population); and a unanimous vote(where all voting states must agree, which therefore gives any single government a veto over the law.)'

But then goes on to say.

'The Lisbon Treaty changed a large number of policy areas from being ones that needed unanimity (thus giving states a veto) to ones that were decided by qualified majority. At the same time, the Lisbon Treaty changed how qualified majority voting worked—this actually gave the UK slightly more voting power than it had before through the link with a country’s population, which is widely seen as having benefited large countries such as the UK, France and Germany.

The UK also doesn’t have to participate in EU legislation relating to justice and home affairs, but can choose to opt-in if it wants to.

It’s not clear what is meant by the claim that the Lisbon Treaty would see states losing their “abstention veto”. On issues that require unanimity, it’s the case that simply abstaining from a vote does not stop it passing (the Lisbon Treaty did not change this), but states can still veto by voting against.'

It also states on a separate page.

'The UK can veto some laws alone, but needs three allies to block others

Not all EU decisions affecting the UK can be passed against its wishes. Some important issues can only be decided if every country voting agrees.

These areas include foreign affairs, taxation, justice and the EU budget. If the UK is adamantly opposed to a law requiring unanimous approval, it's unlikely to make it as far as a vote.

But in other areas, majorities are enough. Under the new system for majority voting, a law has to pass two hurdles.

First, 16 out of 28 member states have to vote for it. In special cases, it's 21 out of 28.

The UK naturally counts for only 1/28th from this point of view.

But there is a second condition: population matters. Member states representing 65% of all the people in the EU have to vote for a law before it passes.

The ability of the UK to combine with a couple of other big countries to block a law it doesn't like is made more difficult by a rider to this rule. You can get to 36% against a proposed law from just three countries, but they won't be able to block it unless joined by at least one more.

In other words, if fewer than four countries oppose or abstain on a law in the Council, it passes.'

What we can see from this is that, the Lisbon treaty has eroded the powers of member states down, and the areas where a veto still exists, are exactly the areas the EU is going to target next, bear in mind that the plans for this already exist and are public knowledge , EU common tax policy/defence and the ECJ WILL become the highest law in Europe come 2020.

So just on this first point, decide for yourself if Fullfact is giving you the FACTS , or a skewed version of the truth.

[hedge]

9 minutes ago, mick miller said:

That Lisbon treaty stuff is all bobbins btw. John posted the full fact link which debunks most, if not all of it. Regardless of whether it is true or not it doesn't change my belief that I would rather not be part of federation and be subject to the rulings of two separate Parliaments, rather than just the one over which I have some semblance of direct control.

This whole process has become a dogs breakfast, partly due to being led by an individual with a declared interest in not leaving the EU and partly due to the utter ineptitude and inability of those that campaigned for decades to leave. I'm not sure about you but I would have thought that in all that time a viable exit process and terms of any on-going relationship could have at least been thought about, if not fully fleshed out. It appears that this is not the case however.

Given the choice of this crappy deal, revocation of A.50 or WTO I would say the least worst, but by no means, most ideal option is to remain part of the EU. I would prefer the clean break option, but as no substantial thought has been undertaken as to how this could work within a kingdom united only by its differences without creating problems in the long term in Northern Ireland and, in the short term, shortages of foods and medicines in the UK as a whole I see no other sensible option left?

It may well have been the 'plan' all along, but I rather think that politics is not intelligent enough for this kind of social engineering and pre-planning, especially given the surprise result of the referendum in the first place. I am sure that this disaster is all just a result of utter, political fecklessness.

Can't disagree with that.

It's an absolute sh!tshow that we are in this position.

Based on what's been said today, JRM has now said that he'll look to back Mays deal as `half a loaf is better than no bread`.  

Another MP has said that May's deal is the `least worst option`.

It seems that consensus is that we are now in a position that all options aren't very palatable, so we go for the least terrible/sh!te. That might be no Brexit at all and based on May's deal, I'm sadly thinking that might be our best option. That would also put any sort of future democratic vote in the `will it ever happen` pile.

The stupid thing is, May has created the Law of diminishing cr*p options by being so bleedin' rubbish (or clever if you are a conspiracy theorist).

Either way - it seems that the will of Parliament is weakening and by the end of today we'll have and idea of the lay of the land. 

 

 

[mick miller]

Quote

What we can see from this is that, the Lisbon treaty has eroded the powers of member states down, and the areas where a veto still exists, are exactly the areas the EU is going to target next, bear in mind that the plans for this already exist and are public knowledge , EU common tax policy/defence and the ECJ WILL become the highest law in Europe come 2020.

I get it, a lot of it is already in place however, I don't like or want it either and, along with over half the population of the UK that can be bothered to get off their backsides and vote, voted to leave it behind.

However, for three years there has been delay, obfuscation, downright lies but seemingly very little work done on the way in which a WTO exit would work without impacting the health, security and viability of the UK. This is what should have been the direction in the first place, instead we have spent the time working out how to leave in name only. Classic trying to please everyone and ultimately pleasing no-one. Given that we are now at the end-game we're faced with Hobson's choice. The question is; do you want it in the balls or in the face?

Edited March 27, 2019 by mick miller

[serrac]

20 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

@Rewulf this is the article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/28/brexit-to-destroy-u-k-car-manufacturing-lead-to-cheaper-imported-cars-increase-traffic-congestion/#59573c995c4b

I'm not sure this is credible:

"Of course, while cheaper cars would be welcomed by U.K. consumers it would lead to more cars on the road, increasing congestion and reducing the U.K.’s economic competitiveness."

Cheaper cars are already available in the UK, they are generally known as "used" or "pre-owned".
The decision to buy and drive a car is based on a perceived need for that form of transport, which only very loosely related to the price of new cars.
A more likely outcome is more existing drivers being able to afford to drive a newer less polluting vehicle which is a good thing for the environment.

[Raja Clavata]

6 minutes ago, serrac said:

I'm not sure this is credible:

"Of course, while cheaper cars would be welcomed by U.K. consumers it would lead to more cars on the road, increasing congestion and reducing the U.K.’s economic competitiveness."

Cheaper cars are already available in the UK, they are generally known as "used" or "pre-owned".
The decision to buy and drive a car is based on a perceived need for that form of transport, which only very loosely related to the price of new cars.
A more likely outcome is more existing drivers being able to afford to drive a newer less polluting vehicle which is a good thing for the environment.

I take your point!