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Extreme pheasant shooting

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1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

 

The more you practice, the luckier you get .. and I believe both skill and luck are needed to kill this high stuff.

On the moral scale .. what's worse, a skilled shot stretching himself and relying on luck at distance with a skilled team of pickers up, or a poor shot blasting away at 20-30 yard stuff and back ending a few with no effort to pick up? Both happen.

 

“The more you practice the luckier you get” only applies to scenarios where luck does not need to play a part, with respect it’s just not applicable in this case.

The trouble here is that those poor shots who wound or back end living creatures don’t tend to come here and post about it as though it were a skill, the high birders DO and they THINK it’s down to their skill. Both do happen but we can do something about the former by gently informing the offenders they could do with some formal tuition and practice, the latter as this 20 page long thread proves are beyond reproach and will not accept data, facts or figures. They simply cannot tell the difference between repeatable skill and fluke.

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21 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Deadlock!

P'shot knows that he's out many times a week enjoying knocking down very high birds, and that as his team practice, they get better.

The rest know that at the ranges discussed, patterns fail, and the reliability of hitting the target with a well placed shot becomes one of luck.

The more you practice, the luckier you get .. and I believe both skill and luck are needed to kill this high stuff.

On the moral scale .. what's worse, a skilled shot stretching himself and relying on luck at distance with a skilled team of pickers up, or a poor shot blasting away at 20-30 yard stuff and back ending a few with no effort to pick up? Both happen.

From someone who's both patterned home/factory loads in many bore sizes to know what's possible; and been on half a dozen extreme days, fluked a few high ones, missed a lot more, and decided to pull back a bit on range … less shots, more dead.

Skill as in common experience of how to hit a long range target reliably is obviously a pre requisite for any long range shooting be that clays or if you chose to shoot anything alive at long range.

The part luck plays in all this should not be happening. 

 Anything you do surrounding shooting any living thing should be the best you can achieve in every aspect. cheery picking SKILL and relying on that when the rest of the equation is clearly not up to the task is clearly unsportsmanlike in every respect.

 n As shot gunners we are all ruled by the same laws. the laws of physics still aptly and regardless of skill level the lethality or lack of any given load is the same, the beginner who lacks experience in any  aspect of wing shooting/ marksmanship , should hone their skills to an acceptable level before they attempt to kill any living thing.  Then using what they learned on the clays start to apply it to their quarry species with a gun load set up  they know is suitable to cleanly kill birds at their chosen shooting range.

Judging range will come with experience and as skill levels increase the range estimation wing shooting technique will all being well increase accordingly until eventually the Load fails at whatever range that is  obviously depends on gun choke load shot size blah blah blah!.

 But throughout all this range increasing if that’s what you are chose to do , you should be looking at ever aspect of you and your kit to try your level best to be as lethal and as such humane as possible.

Nothing can stay the same when you are on this quest as your skill level improves your kit needs improving to an appropriate level, or you get a shortfall as in any chain the weakest link.

  Whatever that weak part is you need to work on that aspect to stay on top of the job. In clay busting your score drops, but in bird shooting you start to wound more.

 Now depending what area of live bird shooting you are applying all these skills and kit improvements to and where and if whom you are participating this chosen sport with will start to dictate what happens next.

If you are alone in a relatively secluded area you have just your own ethics dictating what you want to do next. If you shoot in company it might be those with you comment on the shortfall, or not. Could be a club or syndicate if they all think alike could be you accept the shortfall and accept the wounded bird increase, it could be an individual could be brought to task on their failings . again or not.

Lots of different scenarios will dictate a direction a long range  wing shooting shot gunner may take.

Peer chastisement or outside intervention might trigger change in order to conform to a request a guide line curtailing any further range increase in an individuals long range shot gunning mission. A change of peers or venue, could get one back in the game or even recieving suport for ones shortfalls from peers with similar ethics .

In which case said person coulod go on for years with a shortfall in their kit aware of it perhaps but just accepting to cripples as going with the territory of what this peer group do.

So its all down to an individuals standards, what you will accept, we are not all created the same but we as shooters all owe respect to every living thing we set out to kill, and we should still strive for perfection in every aspect of our skills and our kits performance in the field.

The skill levels are simply not an aspect of this debate at all, as i have pointed out numerous times the ammo shortfall is there at 80 yards and even at 99 yards. So to carry on regardless and ignore the science or refuse to accept it as an issue is ostrich head in sand material, and is still a real failling its just not been recognised due to ignorance inexperience or just because an individual can ignore the shortfall. Its still there and it will never go away untill its addressed.

Common sense as the ethical shooters regardless of skill and ability settling for a more realistic shotgun range as described by others prior to this post.

The other option is to resolve the shortfall get the equipment more up to the job. There will be a brick wall and how you chose to handle that brick wall in shotshell performance will dictate if you are a sportsman or not.

 

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I just watched another of Dave Carrie's videos from North Wales. Pretty much everything he was killing cleanly, looked like it was around the 60 yard mark. Nice clean kills.

This will be the range that the vast majority of birds will be killed at on these "extreme" shoots.

If the shooting was ALL at ranges of 80 yards and above, the game cart would be pretty empty, and the ratios would be over 15-1.

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52 minutes ago, motty said:

I just watched another of Dave Carrie's videos from North Wales. Pretty much everything he was killing cleanly, looked like it was around the 60 yard mark. Nice clean kills.

This will be the range that the vast majority of birds will be killed at on these "extreme" shoots.

If the shooting was ALL at ranges of 80 yards and above, the game cart would be pretty empty, and the ratios would be over 15-1.

I think you are right, i am sure they are overestimating ranges in the most par there, but that certainly is not what these particular high shooters are implying here.  They gloat in the idea of the long range shots being 80 yard or even 99 and chose to ignore facts and are about using the publicity no matter how bad to boost their own self professed egos that is the whole point of this thread from their standpoint. They have lost the plot when it comes to sportsmanship, my concern is that  perhaps a few of the young or inexperienced impressionable amongst us might be drawn into their ethical milden and be tempted to try and emulate some of these 80yard kills with the inevitable consequences.

 

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no such thing as extreme shooting  have shot just about all legal quarry all over the country in the last 30/ 40  yrs  from  geese to snipe and all in between inc grouse ptarmigan 

shot range 45 to 60  yrds given shot type /size  and ability others have pulled off shots once in a lifetime  

ability of said shooter consistently  to kill at said ranges  ?????

have shot a jelly head turkey choke 40+  thou  constriction lead only kill pigeons 85 yrds +   17 out of 20 shots  witnessed

however  have shot a 28 g cheap o/u  and embarrassed  12g others  consistently  both clay nd game not to mention 

witnessed many  28 and 410 shooters use  Winchester trap   100  out shoot      many others on the day consistently on the day as they shot  evert day through out the season   a pleasure to watch a good team of guns 

a good shot can adapt to the day   regardless       others  do  what they always do  never learn   found to be lacking  (if it doesn't work change it )  

a shot who adapts to a target goes home with the purse  clay or game  

however I get more enjoyment out of working  my dog flush a game bird or two    in the bag  than a corporate shoot  hell not to mention foreshore shooting  either way if my dog flushes it and I shoot it its all good 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Saltings said:

 

have shot a jelly head turkey choke 40+  thou  constriction lead only kill pigeons 85 yrds +   17 out of 20 shots  witnessed

 

 

 

 

You killed 17 x 20 pigeon at 85 yards with witnesses ? Any chance you could repeat the feat for money ? 

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Why not suggest the lad from TGS tests it and posts the results on the tube? I’m sure he’d be up for it. 

Edited by Scully

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6 hours ago, Saltings said:

no such thing as extreme shooting  have shot just about all legal quarry all over the country in the last 30/ 40  yrs  from  geese to snipe and all in between inc grouse ptarmigan 

shot range 45 to 60  yrds given shot type /size  and ability others have pulled off shots once in a lifetime  

ability of said shooter consistently  to kill at said ranges  ?????

have shot a jelly head turkey choke 40+  thou  constriction lead only kill pigeons 85 yrds +   17 out of 20 shots  witnessed

however  have shot a 28 g cheap o/u  and embarrassed  12g others  consistently  both clay nd game not to mention 

witnessed many  28 and 410 shooters use  Winchester trap   100  out shoot      many others on the day consistently on the day as they shot  evert day through out the season   a pleasure to watch a good team of guns 

a good shot can adapt to the day   regardless       others  do  what they always do  never learn   found to be lacking  (if it doesn't work change it )  

a shot who adapts to a target goes home with the purse  clay or game  

however I get more enjoyment out of working  my dog flush a game bird or two    in the bag  than a corporate shoot  hell not to mention foreshore shooting  either way if my dog flushes it and I shoot it its all good 

 

 

 

That sounds like some others  on this forum,  i am no shrinking violet when it comes to knocking geese down, 4s  8 tens s double discharge guns i have reached out and touched them in my time as most here will have.  All this aside though this is not what this debate is about.

Its not ability or not adapting or learning, quite the contrary it is all about learning and evolving developing.

What its not about is one thing, but it is about 35gram of 4 ENG size lead at 80yards and the ethics behind it.

 The extreme range boys have yet to come up with any evidence that support what they claim to be doing.  Videos posted claims and counter claims but no good solid reason anybody should believe this 80 yard  clean kills on pheasant .

Abilities /skill /marksmanship does vary, but many good shots are out there who just quietly get on with what they do no fuss no bluster no bragging its just not the done thing.

 The science is not there for  consistent kills 80 yards in a 12 bore and 35 gram of 4s on Pheasant.

Patterns do not kill pellets kill and pellets are born out of patterns .

If your not getting sufficent shot on the bird it will not be killed reliably /cleanly, and because the science is not there at 80yards it brings in to clear focus the facts any 80 yard kills if there are cany will be flukes wingers, and then the obvious folow on question is should you even be doing this in view of the loads shortfall.

 The moderate shooters (i think again the vast majority on here are moderate in relation to these alleged high extreme birds). then ask the Question . WHY! 

Why would you want too!? 80/99 yard birds with gun and ammunition that is incapable of clean kills reliably at these ranges.

We get no facts just claims, and even the method used to evaluate a shotgun and its ammos performance the entire world over is dismissed as not necessary or needed.

When here every other country in the world patterns shotguns up, but not in this case of high pheasants..  Again WHY!.

Is it fear of knowing just how bad the performance will be, or is it once the evidence is there to see then all shooters can see just how unsportsmanlike these people are being.

They have been given the chance to back up their position so many times on the thread its not funny.

 But we get Nothing. From the high birders we vhve had a hide behind superior marksmanship skills its all that’s needed end of.

No one is going to wear that not for a second .

So far only evidence we have seen is from Stone park as in a strip down on just such a high pheasant load as described in the post. This revealed a very underwhelming load , nothing there to see but business as ussual or same old same as!

We need to see more evidence or draw our own conclusions (already done several times) on what all this is really about. Over estimation of range .

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by lancer425

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5 hours ago, Saltings said:

have shot a jelly head turkey choke 40+  thou  constriction lead only kill pigeons 85 yrds +   17 out of 20 shots  witnessed

85% kills on Pigeon at 85 yards. Amazing shooting. That tops Perazzishot`s ratio on Pheasant; and a Pigeon is a smaller more erratic target as well !

Evident that he will have to brush up on his technique or change his chokes to match your skill. 😂

 

 

Edited by JJsDad

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8 hours ago, Saltings said:

no such thing as extreme shooting  have shot just about all legal quarry all over the country in the last 30/ 40  yrs  from  geese to snipe and all in between inc grouse ptarmigan 

shot range 45 to 60  yrds given shot type /size  and ability others have pulled off shots once in a lifetime  

ability of said shooter consistently  to kill at said ranges  ?????

have shot a jelly head turkey choke 40+  thou  constriction lead only kill pigeons 85 yrds +   17 out of 20 shots  witnessed

however  have shot a 28 g cheap o/u  and embarrassed  12g others  consistently  both clay nd game not to mention 

witnessed many  28 and 410 shooters use  Winchester trap   100  out shoot      many others on the day consistently on the day as they shot  evert day through out the season   a pleasure to watch a good team of guns 

a good shot can adapt to the day   regardless       others  do  what they always do  never learn   found to be lacking  (if it doesn't work change it )  

a shot who adapts to a target goes home with the purse  clay or game  

however I get more enjoyment out of working  my dog flush a game bird or two    in the bag  than a corporate shoot  hell not to mention foreshore shooting  either way if my dog flushes it and I shoot it its all good 

 

 

 

Then you woke up!

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On 25/11/2019 at 07:49, Hamster said:

You killed 17 x 20 pigeon at 85 yards with witnesses ? Any chance you could repeat the feat for money ? 

you couldn;t repeat that for your life nevermind money, anyway you can't repeat something you haven't done in the first place 

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I read it all! Over several days of course.

I don't shoot 'high birds', I really can't afford it, since Mrs also shoot, that'd become a bit of a money pit (as it already is anyway). I'm reasonably good on 'straight' birds, but I tend not to shoot at anything curling. Basically, I'm a wuss.

However I DO like math, and physics too, and one thing I like playing with is stuff like this: http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/shot-ballistics/shot-ballistics.html -- enter a few parameters, and watch what you get at various ranges. I used that tool recently to rubbish someone's arguments that 'fast' cartridges made any flippin difference in a ESP shooting context (~40yd ish) -- you can shoot SLOW cartridge and the difference in real life at 50yd is a handful of centimeters.

Anyway, on topic here and 80 yarders; what's my personal opinion? Well it's a mix of both! We all agree the pattern *within 30 inches* can't possibly be enough to kill reliably, however, at 80 yards your spread pattern is *way* wider than 30 inches, probably (and here I don't use a calculator to make up this number, I actually *make it up*) more like 60 inches (?). And yes the density is a lot lower, however there's still a very high chance than in that 60 inches there are enough 'clumps' of pellets to kill something. Or at least stun it seriously, after which the gravity does it's job.

Basically you have enough chance of getting a pheasant sized 'hole' in your pattern at 40 yards than having a non-hole in a pattern at 80 yards. It's just plain random. And yes, with heavier shots like #4's, 2 of them might be enough to kill or seriously stun a bird, and if you *only need a couple* then the pattern could even be a bit wider while *still* giving you a fair chance of landing a couple. This is probably the idea behind "You either kill it or miss it!" here. It's true, 2 #4s with enough energy will seriously wound a bird. While #5s or #6s might just ***** the skin. I've picked and plucked Mallards with pellets in their feathers that hadn't even reached the skin!

Now I'm not saying it's nice, fair to the birds or anything like that, I don't want to really enter that argument, but *to me* YES you can raise your average of hitting birds with patterns that aren't tight enough, but you'll never do it reliably due to the increasing reliance on plain luck. In luck I say "lowest possible percentage of failure". Of course you still need to put that pattern roughly in the right spot, and regardless of the size, it's still a challenge.

If, on top of this, you add the very interesting numbers you get from that calculator regarding drops and crosswinds, you realise quickly that you'd definitely NEED a 60 inches (or more) pattern to hit /anything/ at that range, as the drift and drop become of massive significance. In the Welsh hills with downdrafts/updrafts etc it's even more significant.

And as a conclusion, regardless of the range/bird/gun and so on, I think that we all agree we like to kill flying stuff, but what *I* would like to see here are people who go out, kill their favourite preys, then come back and not post pattern plates, but their dinner plates with what they've shot cooked and prepared as it should be. 

 

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A stray pellet in an eye socket might get to the brain but getting anywhere near enough pellets on the kill area of a pheasant at 80 yards when we have all the other factors to take into account is not going to happen.

Ftlbs at 80 yards is little over 1ftlbs certainly not 1.5ft lbs.

at least 25% lower than you need in fact you really want to be over 2ft lbs each pellet absolute minimum.

So we got not enough pellets not enough ftlbs .

A black out and the impact after a fall kills outright. Struck by lightening? yes it must have happened i suppose.Well perhaps!

Not really the sort of odds true sportspersons want to be advocating is it really!?

If you look at the old yardstick of making sure your pellets are hiting the bird /animal at 600fps or more you are using the right size of whatever shot your using, and you got it patterning to put the minimum or more number of those pellets appropriate for your species . you are on the right track. thats steel or TSS because TSS only makes it overkill and steel you just use bigger shot.

600fps on the bird is where we need to be at 80 its no where near, so what do you do to combat this, well the clever money drops the range to 50 or max 60 where the parameters are where they need to be its that simple.

This thread is all about simple overestimation of range by a few shooters who lack the ability to judge range accurately. its not a crime, but at 80 yards  perhaps it ought to be.

 

 

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Is this still rumbling on? 

Why do I keep reading this tripe? It's a bit like a crash on the motorway... Why do people look?

In the end I just feel disappointed in myself. 

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9 hours ago, buze said:

 

And as a conclusion, regardless of the range/bird/gun and so on, I think that we all agree we like to kill flying stuff, but what *I* would like to see here are people who go out, kill their favourite preys, then come back and not post pattern plates, but their dinner plates with what they've shot cooked and prepared as it should be. 

 

Out of the whole 20 odd pages and however ever many countless comments, this is probably the most relevant. It wasn't all that long ago pictures of 'dumped birds' were floating around,and no doubt with the season under way they will surface again, real or not. 

A 21 page argument between actual shooters on an open forum, great stuff that is.

We'll be our own downfall. 

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1 hour ago, Farmboy91 said:

We'll be our own downfall. 

 

I would disagree, our downfall will be due to those who insist on undertaking activities which they cannot defend either scientifically, morally or legally and who then end up as front page news.

 

As part of the Code of Good Shooting Practice, Section 2..... Guns should aim to take shooting to match their skills and capabilities...... Guns must be competent at estimating range and shoot within the limitations of their equipment to kill cleanly and consistantly.... whilst the former is best practice, the latter is mandatory to meet the code.

 

The 'extreme' shooting being undertaken fails both of the above tests particularly the latter as the equipment is being used outside if its limitations hence the reluctance to demonstrate any long range patterns.

 

Edited by Stonepark

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2 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

 

I would disagree, our downfall will be due to those who insist on undertaking activities which they cannot defend either scientifically, morally or legally and who then end up as front page news.

 

As part of the Code of Good Shooting Practice, Section 2..... Guns should aim to take shooting to match their skills and capabilities...... Guns must be competent at estimating range and shoot within the limitations of their equipment to kill cleanly and consistantly.... whilst the former is best practice, the latter is mandatory to meet the code.

 

The 'extreme' shooting being undertaken fails both of the above tests particularly the latter as the equipment is being used outside if its limitations hence the reluctance to demonstrate any long range patterns.

 

But those individuals won't matter, because they are still part of the shooting community and we will all be tarred with the same brush. 

We quite clearly aren't capable of as a whole abiding by the code are we? 

Don't take this comment the wrong way as its not a dig at what you have said.

I can't say I have any interest in shooting extreme pheasants, any more than I have an interest in PSG, but it's not for me or anyone else to say you should or shouldn't be doing it. Given what we all do and the problems we face as a collective we should be supporting one and other. 

Just imagine we used all the wasted time and effort that's gone into this thread on something productive, like the antis do. 

 

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H

2 hours ago, Farmboy91 said:

Out of the whole 20 odd pages and however ever many countless comments, this is probably the most relevant. It wasn't all that long ago pictures of 'dumped birds' were floating around,and no doubt with the season under way they will surface again, real or not. 

A 21 page argument between actual shooters on an open forum, great stuff that is.We'll be our own downfall. 

How is this most relevant? The summary seems to be to ignore the range, as long as there are some ending up on the table!

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Just now, motty said:

H

How is this most relevant? The summary seems to be to ignore the range, as long as there are some ending up on the table!

Because you know aswell as I do, whether the birds are shot at 20 yards or 80, it makes no difference to any one who's anti shooting we are still killing and we are still enjoying it. 

By using whatever shoot we are atleast taking away one of the coffin nails they will try and use. 

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3 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

Because you know aswell as I do, whether the birds are shot at 20 yards or 80, it makes no difference to any one who's anti shooting we are still killing and we are still enjoying it. 

By using whatever shoot we are atleast taking away one of the coffin nails they will try and use. 

Sorry, but to me this has nothing to do with what antis may think. This is more to do with respect for quarry and also a debate on shotgun/cartridge capabilities and range estimation.

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3 minutes ago, motty said:

Sorry, but to me this has nothing to do with what antis may think. This is more to do with respect for quarry and also a debate on shotgun/cartridge capabilities and range estimation.

And I whole heartily agree with you and everyone else when it comes to respect for the quarry and range estimation and capabilities etc. 

Everything to do with shooting has everything to do with what antis, we seem to insist on providing them more ways to pick at us?

Maybe even more important is not necessarily what the antis think, but how  the non shooting, but not necessarily anti shooting public see us. 

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Lead shot is still lead shot and game is as it ever was. Consequently, although it's rarely mentioned today the "600" is as valid now as it was a century or more ago. In view of the lack of its current use, one wonders if people now understand its application and relevance. Clearly, not everyone does.

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3 hours ago, wymberley said:

Lead shot is still lead shot and game is as it ever was. Consequently, although it's rarely mentioned today the "600" is as valid now as it was a century or more ago. In view of the lack of its current use, one wonders if people now understand its application and relevance. Clearly, not everyone does.

In some ways there is no small wonder people dont know basic aspects/ requirements, we have a element within the shooting community which i am as sure as i can be evolved from clay shooting more importantly Sporting.  the simulation of given game targets launched repetitively with alterations to target presentation  here and there to challenge ability/ learn has its merits.

 however success in this though it boosts confidence undoubtedly can and does lead to some individuals believing in these artificial inanimate kills directly translating to the real world of taking game cleanly and humane.

The fact that typical small lead shot/ loads  in say the usual 7 1/5 size is able to kill small game in ranges typically encountered  in general game shooting and ranges this can indicate to the less discerning shooters that Indeed the simulation of game is comparable to that of the true game shooting.

 clay loads offered in game sizes etc show this to be even marketed commercially this way.

This can work fine, but eventually the real world gets in the way especially as ranges increase, then we start to see the shortfall come to the fore, a swap to a few cmore gram loads and use of fives or fours by mid season and 3s latter on is not uncommon. But even these switches are not immune from science and we lose pattern numbers or need more choke etc its all about juggling the numbers. making it work in the time honoured fassion most dedicated game shooters and wildfowlers  learned the hard way.

  The clay to game transition is possible of course it is and this is not about decrying the benefits clay shooting offers all shooters, but we need to keep it in mind clays are inanimate objects not flesh and blood. And as such birds  deserve appropriate due consideration dedication and respect.

Responsible shooters address all the above points and act accordingly.

Edited by lancer425

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