Extreme pheasant shooting

[wymberley]

29 minutes ago, button said:

How can you say it's not enough shot if Perazzishot has done it?

Dave Carrie's videos show it can be done  George Digweed shows what can be done against pigeon on you tube

The key every one seems to be forgetting is the ability of the person pulling the trigger, yes the right gear helps but it is not the only ingredient needed

I've always taken the definition of maximum range by Gough Thomas (above) to be my guide. Mainly because it gives no distances and makes you think for yourself what that distance might be. How would you define maximum range?

13 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

In most forms of live quarry shooting, the onus is on the shooter to get within a range at which a quick and sure despatch is likely if not certain. There is an anomaly here in that the range is deliberately increased over normal. Not for me but it is for others to make their own judgement.

Absolutely spot on. And others are going to have to make that judgement as there is no existing information, tables or whatever to refer to. For all of the more usual ranges in depth knowledge is not required as there is plenty of information around to refer to (although there might just be a problem here). Consequently, now that the available information is inapplicable to this situation an understanding of how things work becomes essential if we intend to comply with your sensible opening sentence which was well said.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Barrel length makes virtually no difference to ballistic performance.

you are very unlikely to get the same performance through a real world gun then you will through a proof barrel.

34gm is still not a lot of shot and not enough for 80/90 yard targets to deliver the pattern and pellet count required at those distances.

please do cut open a hull high pheasant extreme 34/4 fibre and post the photo of the components, so we can all see the magic within.

I agree with your first point, as the powder will be burned by approximately 12" the rest of the barrel except the choke serves no point with regard to speed of the payload.

Your second point has me wondering though. A proof barrel is used with a heavy loaded shell to establish that the gun is safe to a predetermined load. A real world gun and a proof barrel are but distant relations.

As you say 34 grammes is not a lot and we regularly shot 36 grammes years ago.

I too look forward to seeing the photograph of the contents of the Hull High Pheasant Extreme 34/4 Fibre.

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, button said:

How can you say it's not enough shot if Perazzishot has done it?

Dave Carrie's videos show it can be done  George Digweed shows what can be done against pigeon on you tube

The key every one seems to be forgetting is the ability of the person pulling the trigger, yes the right gear helps but it is not the only ingredient needed

 

Not saying it cannot be done but becomes more of a game of chance than skill, why not try this yourself and then decide.

40gm 4 shot. 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by rbrowning2

[rbrowning2]

24 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I agree with your first point, as the powder will be burned by approximately 12" the rest of the barrel except the choke serves no point with regard to speed of the payload.

Your second point has me wondering though. A proof barrel is used with a heavy loaded shell to establish that the gun is safe to a predetermined load. A real world gun and a proof barrel are but distant relations.

As you say 34 grammes is not a lot and we regularly shot 36 grammes years ago.

I too look forward to seeing the photograph of the contents of the Hull High Pheasant Extreme 34/4 Fibre.

Sorry by proof barrel I meant the type used by Birmingham proof house to test cartridges for CIP compliance. Not the destructive testing of a barrel to proof pressure before sale.

the latter will give maximum pressure for the cartridge under test but in the real world our guns will not achieve the same internal ballistics and hence velocity and pressure will likely be less than the cartridge manufactures quote.

 

[Stonepark]

56 minutes ago, button said:

How can you say it's not enough shot if Perazzishot has done it?

Dave Carrie's videos show it can be done  George Digweed shows what can be done against pigeon on you tube

The key every one seems to be forgetting is the ability of the person pulling the trigger, yes the right gear helps but it is not the only ingredient needed

But quite clearly they do not either have the right skill and/or the right equipment as they are taking 5/6 shots for each dead bird and then claiming as this is no worse that an average 'amateur'  30yd to 40 yard bird shoot then it doesn't matter that they have a similarly high (or even higher) number of pricked birds which may or may not survive depending on the location of the injury due to the large spread and poor pattern density.

A similar analogy about the moral standing of this position would be a top consultant doctor refusing to save the life of a patient since the locum doctor on the ward was unable to do it, so why should he do any better.

In order for a 80 yard pheasant to be brought down like a 40 yard pheasant shot by a professional shooter using 32g No6, they should be using something like 4oz of No 3 out of a 4 bore to get the same penetration and pattern density required to get a clean kill 95% of the time the centre of the pattern is on target. Anything less is relying on the low chance (15% to 20%) for a pellet to find its way into something vital.

In no other sport would the 'professionals' not aim to achieve as close to 100% as possible and the people undertaking the extreme range shooting could chose to limit themselves to a 410 with 18g to 21g No7 shot and 40 yards range with as low a cartridge to kill ratio as they can get (1:1) as a demonstration of their skill but haven't.

At a 5:1 kill ratio, either they have the skill to put the shot on target and the equipment is lacking or they lack the skill but the equipment is fine, either way it is not close to a 1:1 or ratio where nearly every bird shot at is killed cleanly which is what a true ambassador of the sport would be aiming for and which would be defensible in the public arena!

p.s. I believe George Digweed has said that he does limit the shooting of live game to about 60 yards even though they may fall to the ground a lot further away and that fallen distance be referenced on certain YouTube channels.

[rbrowning2]

We could do with a like button on the forum, like some other forums have.

Fully agree with stonepark the word respect comes to mind.

 

[andrewluke]

33 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

But quite clearly they do not either have the right skill and/or the right equipment as they are taking 5/6 shots for each dead bird and then claiming as this is no worse that an average 'amateur'  30yd to 40 yard bird shoot then it doesn't matter that they have a similarly high (or even higher) number of pricked birds which may or may not survive depending on the location of the injury due to the large spread and poor pattern density.

A similar analogy about the moral standing of this position would be a top consultant doctor refusing to save the life of a patient since the locum doctor on the ward was unable to do it, so why should he do any better.

In order for a 80 yard pheasant to be brought down like a 40 yard pheasant shot by a professional shooter using 32g No6, they should be using something like 4oz of No 3 out of a 4 bore to get the same penetration and pattern density required to get a clean kill 95% of the time the centre of the pattern is on target. Anything less is relying on the low chance (15% to 20%) for a pellet to find its way into something vital.

In no other sport would the 'professionals' not aim to achieve as close to 100% as possible and the people undertaking the extreme range shooting could chose to limit themselves to a 410 with 18g to 21g No7 shot and 40 yards range with as low a cartridge to kill ratio as they can get (1:1) as a demonstration of their skill but haven't.

At a 5:1 kill ratio, either they have the skill to put the shot on target and the equipment is lacking or they lack the skill but the equipment is fine, either way it is not close to a 1:1 or ratio where nearly every bird shot at is killed cleanly which is what a true ambassador of the sport would be aiming for and which would be defensible in the public arena!

p.s. I believe George Digweed has said that he does limit the shooting of live game to about 60 yards even though they may fall to the ground a lot further away and that fallen distance be referenced on certain YouTube channels.

that would make these extreme shooters amateurs at their chosen ranges

[Perazzishot]

24 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

But quite clearly they do not either have the right skill and/or the right equipment as they are taking 5/6 shots for each dead bird and then claiming as this is no worse that an average 'amateur'  30yd to 40 yard bird shoot then it doesn't matter that they have a similarly high (or even higher) number of pricked birds which may or may not survive depending on the location of the injury due to the large spread and poor pattern density.

A similar analogy about the moral standing of this position would be a top consultant doctor refusing to save the life of a patient since the locum doctor on the ward was unable to do it, so why should he do any better.

In order for a 80 yard pheasant to be brought down like a 40 yard pheasant shot by a professional shooter using 32g No6, they should be using something like 4oz of No 3 out of a 4 bore to get the same penetration and pattern density required to get a clean kill 95% of the time the centre of the pattern is on target. Anything less is relying on the low chance (15% to 20%) for a pellet to find its way into something vital.

In no other sport would the 'professionals' not aim to achieve as close to 100% as possible and the people undertaking the extreme range shooting could chose to limit themselves to a 410 with 18g to 21g No7 shot and 40 yards range with as low a cartridge to kill ratio as they can get (1:1) as a demonstration of their skill but haven't.

At a 5:1 kill ratio, either they have the skill to put the shot on target and the equipment is lacking or they lack the skill but the equipment is fine, either way it is not close to a 1:1 or ratio where nearly every bird shot at is killed cleanly which is what a true ambassador of the sport would be aiming for and which would be defensible in the public arena!

p.s. I believe George Digweed has said that he does limit the shooting of live game to about 60 yards even though they may fall to the ground a lot further away and that fallen distance be referenced on certain YouTube channels.

So you are advocating we should go out and shoot 1:1 ratio? If you are not you are doing shooting a disservice,.

So how do you improve to get to that ratio, you can't practice on clays for true live game simulation?

Practice is the only way, I get no pleasure from shooting game at less than 2:1 and paying for it, I'd rather shoot clays!

Enjoy my good friends video from Brigands to try and get an understanding of the challenges.

 

 

[Hamster]

50g of BB,s can’t do it but 36g of 4’s can 🙄😆, our extreme gents are having a laugh, only they don’t realise it themselves. Chuck enough lead into the air and you will eventually “hit” and break a 155 yard std clay thrown as a Teal. Remember too that our young and wise friend in the video was taking static aimed shots, which is hugely different to tackling moving targets in real world conditions.

Grorge Digweed is on record as saying 60-70 yards is the maximum range at which any form of consistency of clean kills can be achieved and that’s by the first 11 one would have thought, wealthy B/A class gents need not apply. Unless they refute science, facts and evidence of course.  

48 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

We could do with a like button on the forum, like some other forums have.

Fully agree with stonepark the word respect comes to mind.

 

Like button long overdue.

[Blackpowder]

I have been shooting now for 60 years plus.  Am I an oddity that I dont want 80 yard high pheasants, 36gr  4 shot cartridges.   Today , as always I am happy to shoot with a classic Scottish shot gun 130 years old firing 28 gr of 6 shot over a fibre yard at 35  to 40 yard birds suit me fine thank you.   On the modest shoots where I am a member a 40yd bird is a good one, I see plenty shot at under that with 32gr plastic wads through tight choked barrels rendering the  meat unfit for consumption.

 

Blackpowder.

[figgy]

17 hours ago, rimmie said:

Totally agree !!! 
 

or as I have seen recently, someone shooting 40+ yard pheasant with 28g 7’s !!!!

 

 

in the extreme stuff, my opinion is if you have the experience and tight choke and a good 34g + load, then why not. 
 

it’s  not for novice shooters, you should never practice on live game. A lot of clay practice first, patten plate tests etc....

Rimmie you can't be aware that 28 of 7 shot was a standard partridge and pheasant load for a long time.

  I've used many 25g and 28g 7 traditional game shot carts to very good effect on pheasants. 

 

We have all seen Dave Carries videos of him killing stone dead pheasants at extreme ranges not once but time and again. Regardless of what the ft-lb at what distance per pellet says. In the field they were dead in the air. He tends to use 40g 3 shot for this type of shooting so carts are big and heavy.

The trend for the wealthy has gone from huge 1000 bird bags with triple guns to extreme high birds.  I would like to go on one of the high bird shoots and experience the day for myself. My favourite days are on days with friends where you get a range of birds for everyone, with the bulk at forty yards.

If that's what some want to shoot, fine with me just the same as farm shoots with hedge hopping 25 yarders.  Each to their own. 

35 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

So you are advocating we should go out and shoot 1:1 ratio? If you are not you are doing shooting a disservice,.

So how do you improve to get to that ratio, you can't practice on clays for true live game simulation?

Practice is the only way, I get no pleasure from shooting game at less than 2:1 and paying for it, I'd rather shoot clays!

Enjoy my good friends video from Brigands to try and get an understanding of the challenges.

 

 

Perazzishot when I watched that video last night I wondered if he and you were the same person. Him having a pair of Perazzi's.

[wymberley]

42 minutes ago, figgy said:

Rimmie you can't be aware that 28 of 7 shot was a standard partridge and pheasant load for a long time.

  I've used many 25g and 28g 7 traditional game shot carts to very good effect on pheasants. 

 

We have all seen Dave Carries videos of him killing stone dead pheasants at extreme ranges not once but time and again. Regardless of what the ft-lb at what distance per pellet says. In the field they were dead in the air. He tends to use 40g 3 shot for this type of shooting so carts are big and heavy.

The trend for the wealthy has gone from huge 1000 bird bags with triple guns to extreme high birds.  I would like to go on one of the high bird shoots and experience the day for myself. My favourite days are on days with friends where you get a range of birds for everyone, with the bulk at forty yards.

If that's what some want to shoot, fine with me just the same as farm shoots with hedge hopping 25 yarders.  Each to their own. 

Perazzishot when I watched that video last night I wondered if he and you were the same person. Him having a pair of Perazzi's.

Miroku - didn't he have a problem with one which he mentioned on here last season?

[welshwarrior]

Having been to some of these shoots and shot a few (Brigands a favourite of mine, and epic is a great way to describe Waterfall). 
people do kill the birds cleanly you have to know your limits with the kit your using.  The shoots also have options to show the birds lower if the guns aren’t capable. 
A light weight sbs with 30g 7s is the wrong gear.  Heavier long barrelled guns heavy loads (40g 4s) personally I would not engage a 90 yard bird 60-70 yes. 
 

One thing I will say massive amounts of guns over estimate the range of a bird a bit like fishermen I assume.  Range estimation is a dieing art. 

[JDog]

1 hour ago, Blackpowder said:

I have been shooting now for 60 years plus.  Am I an oddity that I dont want 80 yard high pheasants, 36gr  4 shot cartridges.   Today , as always I am happy to shoot with a classic Scottish shot gun 130 years old firing 28 gr of 6 shot over a fibre yard at 35  to 40 yard birds suit me fine thank you.   On the modest shoots where I am a member a 40yd bird is a good one, I see plenty shot at under that with 32gr plastic wads through tight choked barrels rendering the  meat unfit for consumption.

 

Blackpowder.

I agree with all of that.

[Stonepark]

2 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

So you are advocating we should go out and shoot 1:1 ratio? If you are not you are doing shooting a disservice,.

So how do you improve to get to that ratio, you can't practice on clays for true live game simulation?

Practice is the only way, I get no pleasure from shooting game at less than 2:1 and paying for it, I'd rather shoot clays!

Enjoy my good friends video from Brigands to try and get an understanding of the challenges

 

I have no doubt you and others undertaking this form  of shooting are competent, if not very competent shots. 

Practice, indeed makes perfect and no one on their first attempt at anything such as what is being attempted is likely to immediately be proficient.

However, if the competence is sufficient  for the task and (as you friend demonstrated putting 4 shots onto 1 bird) yet the bird is not dead in the air, then it calls the equipment into question.

Tom Roster recommends that 90-95 pellets large pellets (No3/4) be put into a 30 inch circle for pheasants at a minimum, Eley recommend s 100 to 120 medium pellets (No5/6), I prefer 150, if the cartridge (Hull Extreme No4 36g) starts off with 191 pellets, how many are left in the 30 inch circle at 60yd, 70yds or 80 yards as ballistics tables says full choke at 60 yards is only capable of  32% (61pellets), with 70yds and 80yds  being respectively worse.

Again it comes down to how many birds are not missed due to skill, but due to lack of pellets there is insufficient pattern (which is relatively random) to ensure a kill and hence the high cartridge to kill ratio?

Using a 4 bore with 4oz no 3 would not make the skill in reading the birds any easier but it would ensure when you were on target they would be killed humanely which as a sport we should try to achieve.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Stonepark

[motty]

4 hours ago, button said:

How can you say it's not enough shot if Perazzishot has done it?

Dave Carrie's videos show it can be done  George Digweed shows what can be done against pigeon on you tube

The key every one seems to be forgetting is the ability of the person pulling the trigger, yes the right gear helps but it is not the only ingredient needed

Sorry, the main limiting factor is the cartridge.

Do you believe everything you're told?

[Perazzishot]

We have tried 40/4s, 36/4s, 34/4 HPE Fibre this year and during extensive testing with Hull on pattern plates at 70yd and out in the field the 34/4 have performed the best with 5/8th choke in 18/4 barrels. We are not messing about with this we want as cleanest kill as possible and as Dave works with Gamebore, Gerwyn with Eley we are working with Hull. Yes we all know each other and shoot together.

My 34/3 HPE have arrived today for testing so look forward to see how these works.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

 

I have no doubt you and others undertaking this form  of shooting are competent, if not very competent shots. 

Practice, indeed makes perfect and no one on their first attempt at anything such as what is being attempted is likely to immediately be proficient.

However, if the competence is sufficient  for the task and (as you friend demonstrated putting 4 shots onto 1 bird) yet the bird is not dead in the air, then it calls the equipment into question.

Tom Roster recommends that 90-95 pellets large pellets (No3/4) be put into a 30 inch circle for pheasants at a minimum, Eley recommend s 100 to 120 medium pellets (No5/6), I prefer 150, if the cartridge (Hull Extreme No4 36g) starts off with 191 pellets, how many are left in the 30 inch circle at 60yd, 70yds or 80 yards as ballistics tables says full choke at 60 yards is only capable of  32% (61pellets), with 70yds and 80yds  being respectively worse.

Again it comes down to how many birds are not missed due to skill, but due to lack of pellets there is insufficient pattern (which is relatively random) to ensure a kill and hence the high cartridge to kill ratio?

Using a 4 bore with 4oz no 3 would not make the skill in reading the birds any easier but it would ensure when you were on target they would be killed humanely which as a sport we should try to achieve.

Wasn't going to go here because it's really a pointless exercise. We are attempting to apply conventional shotgun ballistic information to a totally unrealistic set of shotgun circumstances. However, since we are here let's just see how unrealistic it is. We'll bear in mind that anything shotgun is a function of averages. To that end, we'll take the low end of Eley's figures - 100 pellets. We'll also slip BASC's 95% certainty of a clean kill down to, perhaps, a more "reasonable" 90. In return, we'll assume that pheasant shooting means cocks and hens. A sufficient strike rate (using Burrard's measurements) for the 191 available pellets reflects a choking requirement of some 50% to achieve our sporting 90% chance of a clean kill subject to a truly aimed shot. With a fully choked barrel this gives a maximum effective range of 50 yards. Apart from unilaterally deciding to drop BASC's percentage I have used the figures which were already detailed. I only mention this, because if anyone cares to look the maximum range figure given is identical - plus or minus a tad - as given by ELEY in their diary. Obvioussly, in all cases it is assumed that sufficient energy is available. Using the cartridges mentioned is it going to be possible to extend that range by some 60%?  You decide

To my mind skill should come into the equation but it doesn't because sportsmanship should also apply but it doesn't. That is the one single omission which renders this whole topic null and void.

[islandgun]

23 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

We have tried 40/4s, 36/4s, 34/4 HPE Fibre this year and during extensive testing with Hull on pattern plates at 70yd and out in the field the 34/4 have performed the best with 5/8th choke in 18/4 barrels. We are not messing about with this we want as cleanest kill as possible and as Dave works with Gamebore, Gerwyn with Eley we are working with Hull. Yes we all know each other and shoot together.

My 34/3 HPE have arrived today for testing so look forward to see how these works.

Sorry,  whats HPE fibre,  have you tried hw13 or hevi shot ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Sorry,  whats HPE fibre,  have you tried hw13 or hevi shot ?

Hull Pheasant Extreme at a guess

£365 per thousand though!

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE

[islandgun]

15 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Hull Pheasant Extreme at a guess

£365 per thousand though!

 

cheers

Edited November 12, 2019 by islandgun

[TIGHTCHOKE]

An absolute pleasure!

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, Perazzishot said:

We have tried 40/4s, 36/4s, 34/4 HPE Fibre this year and during extensive testing with Hull on pattern plates at 70yd and out in the field the 34/4 have performed the best with 5/8th choke in 18/4 barrels. We are not messing about with this we want as cleanest kill as possible and as Dave works with Gamebore, Gerwyn with Eley we are working with Hull. Yes we all know each other and shoot together.

My 34/3 HPE have arrived today for testing so look forward to see how these works.

The 34/4 have 180 pellets so the 34/3 are going to be even less.

They can call the lead shot what ever sexy name they like but bottom line is it is still a round ball with poor Ballistic Coefficient and their is nothing any manufacture can do about that and physics also limits the velocity at which it leaves the muzzle and the down range velocity/energy. 

Shotguns are a scatter gun pure and simple you just do not have the pattern density with either of those cartridges to be certain of a kill at ranges past 50 to 60yards, yes you may get lucky if you try and try again but that’s what it is luck, with equal probability of pricking a bird rather than killing it, which shows little or no respect for the bird.

clearly the shoots putting on this type of shoot to fulfil the ego of the guns must be laughing all the way to bank at £60 a bird labelled extreme. 

As islandgun has hinted, If you really want a cartridge that would work you need to change to a tungsten type shot with a density much greater than lead and lots of it with a big price tag per cartridge but then at £60 per bird what would it matter if it was £6 per cartridge? And you may as well try that because otherwise when they ban lead shot in a year or two steel shot will certainly not be up to the job and extreme bird shoots will come to an end.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by rbrowning2

[Perazzishot]

39 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

The 34/4 have 180 pellets so the 34/3 are going to be even less.

They can call the lead shot what ever sexy name they like but bottom line is it is still a round ball with poor Ballistic Coefficient and their is nothing any manufacture can do about that and physics also limits the velocity at which it leaves the muzzle and the down range velocity/energy. 

Shotguns are a scatter gun pure and simple you just do not have the pattern density with either of those cartridges to be certain of a kill at ranges past 50 to 60yards, yes you may get lucky if you try and try again but that’s what it is luck, with equal probability of pricking a bird rather than killing it, which shows little or no respect for the bird.

clearly the shoots putting on this type of shoot to fulfil the ego of the guns must be laughing all the way to bank at £60 a bird labelled extreme. 

As islandgun has hinted, If you really want a cartridge that would work you need to change to a tungsten type shot with a density much greater than lead and lots of it with a big price tag per cartridge but then at £60 per bird what would it matter if it was £6 per cartridge? And you may as well try that because otherwise when they ban lead shot in a year or two steel shot will certainly not be up to the job and extreme bird shoots will come to an end.

 

 

Think if you watch the film you will find Gerwyn is using Steel at Brigands!

[button]

2 hours ago, motty said:

Sorry, the main limiting factor is the cartridge.

Do you believe everything you're told?

Believe everything I'm told? What makes you say that? Has Dave at Kelton not seen him shoot and commented or did he make it up too?

Limiting factor a cartridge? Give a poor shot the right cartridge still won't bring the birds down!

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by button