Ben Nevis Mountain Rescue

[chrisjpainter]

Surfer in Hastings: I'm the most selfish idiot to go out in a storm this year!

Walkers on Ben Nevis, in trainers, with no map: Hold my beer...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-51447226

Utterly appalling disregard for safety, common sense, or other people's lives. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Cockwombles, all of them!

[The Heron]

It's about time these idiots were made to pay the costs of the rescue. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Surely it would be possible for the Government to set up an isurance scheme whereby you had to belong and pay a small premium in order to get out there.

 

Then the rescue costs could be covered by a claim.

[chrisjpainter]

Or we go back to the days of public punishment. If they've been idiots. they're paraded through the town and they get a serious paddling from every member of the MRT team and the local villagers. Or they're put in the stocks and have stuffed hurled at them, with the national press in attendance

[snow white]

No insurance schemes for them the should be made to pay it all out of there own pockets in full

If the hade insurance the would not be bothered about doing it again and putting peoples life in danger getting the ruddy barmy *******.

[Scully]

I can fully understand why people state idiots should be made to pay, but I’m not sure even the rescue teams agree that idiots should be legislated against.
Like one of the Lakes rescue team members said, when asked on local tv, ‘ it’s what we’re here for’. Some of them feel people would stop using the Fells if legislation were passed. 
The surfer deserved to suffer the consequences for his actions, in my opinion, but I feel people in this country are already too heavily legislated against as it is. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Scully
Predictive text

[figgy]

I'm sure mountain rescue gave him a good talking too.  They should be asked have you got any injuries yet and give them a dammed good thrashing.

Deserve a dam med good kicking.

[chrisjpainter]

21 minutes ago, Scully said:

I can fully understand why people state idiots should be made to pay, but I’m not sure even the rescue teams agree that idiots should be legislated against.
Like one of the Lakes rescue team members said, when asked on local tv, ‘ it’s what we’re here for’. Some of them feel proper would stop using the Fells if legislation were passed. 
The surfer deserved to suffer the consequences for his actions, in my opinion, but I feel people in this country are already too heavily legislated against as it is. 

You make a good point. I don't think we should be legislating to the lowest intellectual common denominator. It doesn't help with people being able to risk assess for themselves. Better education and not taking the British outdoors for granted would be a good place to start. Or even something like a traffic light system at all mountain access points: 

Green: the mountain's at its safest,

Yellow: some dicey bits, with dubious weather and best left to those with reasonable experience

Red: Dangerous. Do not attempt without serious levels of experience and equipment.

That way it's just information, the call is still yours, but you'd be under no illusions as to the dangers awaiting you.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, Snowdon and Ben Nevis do have a web site showing weather details but maybe some people cannot read, saying that we do know things can change, yes a good point chrisjpainter

[rapid .25]

1 hour ago, The Heron said:

It's about time these idiots were made to pay the costs of the rescue. 

+1, I agree completely, hit them where it hurts " financially".

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

You make a good point. I don't think we should be legislating to the lowest intellectual common denominator. It doesn't help with people being able to risk assess for themselves. Better education and not taking the British outdoors for granted would be a good place to start. Or even something like a traffic light system at all mountain access points: 

Green: the mountain's at its safest,

Yellow: some dicey bits, with dubious weather and best left to those with reasonable experience

Red: Dangerous. Do not attempt without serious levels of experience and equipment.

That way it's just information, the call is still yours, but you'd be under no illusions as to the dangers awaiting you.

Its a difficult one in some ways.  I have some experience of hill walking, having done a lot of walking for grouse over the past 30+ years.  A few years ago, my office had a team doing the 3 peaks - and as it coincided with my annual Scotland visit, I decided I would 'do' Ben Nevis with them.  I stayed near Fort William the night before and checked out the parking etc. the previous day.  It was a lovely clear day in early September and through the binos I could see people on the track up the Ben Nevis 'tourist' route.  Next day, the day of the challenge was cold, wet and misty, but I felt committed to following through on my support, but couldn't wait about as they were running late. 

I ascended Ben Nevis in pretty unpleasant, though not dangerous conditions, reaching the top about lunchtime.  It was near freezing at the top, and blowing wet cloud through with very little visibility.  I came back down (you couldn't stay still for long without getting cold) - meeting the 3 peaks team part way down.  Some of them (the faster fitter ones) made it, some were turned back (by their professional guides) due to the conditions.

I was equipped with decent warm waterproof clothes and boots, map, compass and food, coffee etc. (no mobile phones then I think), and followed the tourist path, which is a long walk, very well marked and not hard going - and has plenty of traffic (in September anyway).

My points are that firstly conditions can change from nice to nasty very quickly - and even in the early autumn, and conditions can be sufficient to make it tough for even those well equipped.  It is also VERY different at the top to the lower slopes.  There is no way anyone, however equipped and experienced should be attempting it when severe weather like named storms are forecast.  There is too high a chance of mishap - which could so easily result in loss of life.

[islandgun]

Im not sure who is qualified to judge the various degrees of stupidity, the dog walker that jumps into the waves to rescue a dog [which always swims out unharmed] or the super experienced surfer that has gone in, in less than perfect conditions, as Scully says do we need more legislation.  How many world class climbers are frozen in the ice on Everest,  You cant legislate for stupid, just advise and be there to pick up the pieces

[Dougy]

We used to do Snowdon and Crib in the olden days, we always went prepared for the worst conditions, i was taught as a kid of 12-13 all about the dangers of high peaks, and to turn back if there was any doubt whatsoever. 

Maybe i was lucky to be gifted with probably more than my fair share of common sense, and to be brought up by the father i had.  

[welsh1]

There will always be people who don't comprehend the risk and put themselves in danger.
Last year i climbed to the top of a small mountain to take pics of the sunrise, i went equiped , hot flask , burner incase i needed it, spare layers, hiking boots etc, it was bitterly cold on the top, and i used the trig point as a wind break waiting for the sunrise, once some pics were taken i packed up and headed down,three quarters of the way down i met an indian family ,mum dad and daughter, they had on just t shirts, and were wearing flip flops, i asked if they intended to climb to the top and when they said yes, i politly told them they were not equiped to do so, the ground was rocky and needed boots and that the top was very windy and the chill factor would make them dangerously cold. They thanked me and sat down, i thought they would head back down, but as soon as they thought i was out of sight they carried on, I watched them from the bottom until they dissapeared around the side of the mountain.

You just can't teach some people.

[hedge]

7 minutes ago, Dougy said:

We used to do Snowdon and Crib in the olden days, we always went prepared for the worst conditions, i was taught as a kid of 12-13 all about the dangers of high peaks, and to turn back if there was any doubt whatsoever. 

Maybe i was lucky to be gifted with probably more than my fair share of common sense, and to be brought up by the father i had.  

I think there is a clear link between knowledge/experience and `common sense`. 

As you say - you were taught about danger as a child and arguably, as a result, you can form your own opinions ("common sense")

The older I get, the more I realise that my common sense is/was honed by life experiences and learning stuff. I'm not as clever as I like to think.

I've done stupid things in the past and been scolded for not using my common sense. I just didn't know any better or have any sort of reference point.

We call them stupid because they didn't know any better. It wasn't very clever but I'm sure that if I go to a foreign country, I could end up doing something stupid because I didn't know any better. Common sense or not.

Knowledge and education will help people make informed decisions and as tempting as it is to stand hand on hips and point the finger, I reckon I've been equally `stupid` at several points in my life.

It's very easy when you are so well informed, to critique the less informed.

[Mice!]

23 minutes ago, Dougy said:

We used to do Snowdon and Crib in the olden days, we always went prepared for the worst conditions, i was taught as a kid of 12-13 all about the dangers of high peaks, and to turn back if there was any doubt whatsoever. 

Maybe i was lucky to be gifted with probably more than my fair share of common sense, and to be brought up by the father i had.  

You and me both.

I did my Duke of Edinburgh awards years ago, you don't go up a mountain in shorts and t shirt, you go prepared for the weather to change because the chances are it will.

Going out in the weather we have had over the last few days is just plain stupid.

[hedge]

4 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

There will always be people who don't comprehend/understand the risk and put themselves in danger.
Last year i climbed to the top of a small mountain to take pics of the sunrise, i went equiped , hot flask , burner incase i needed it, spare layers, hiking boots etc, it was bitterly cold on the top, and i used the trig point as a wind break waiting for the sunrise, once some pics were taken i packed up and headed down,three quarters of the way down i met an indian family ,mum dad and daughter, they had on just t shirts, and were wearing flip flops, i asked if they intended to climb to the top and when they said yes, i politly told them they were not equiped to do so, the ground was rocky and needed boots and that the top was very windy and the chill factor would make them dangerously cold. They thanked me and sat down, i thought they would head back down, but as soon as they thought i was out of sight they carried on, I watched them from the bottom until they dissapeared around the side of the mountain.

You just can't teach some people.

Exactly - sometimes it's just about not being aware of the dangers. Goes back to my knowledge/education comments.

Similar situation many years ago on Snowdon. Beautiful blue sky at Llanberis. Loads of people out. Halfway up towards Crib Goch and the cloud drops down. Fine damp mist and 40mph gusts with 5m viz. Meet several people in t-shirts etc, getting damp and cold, trying to hide inbetween the rocks. They don't understand how the weather can change so quickly. We advise they head down under the cloud and get into the sun to dry out and warm up.

Arguably, when they set out, it was lovely and sunny with no cause for concern.

The reason I wasn't one of those stupid people? I was with someone who walked a lot and I had the same kit as them. I was dressed appropriately but arguably not prepared, as I had not checked the weather or made allowances for a change of weather. I just happened to be wearing the right clothing.

We got up and over but it was knarly. I thought it was great fun. With hindsight, I could have been another idiot on Snowdon when most had gone back down. 

"There will always be people who don't comprehend/understand the risk and put themselves in danger."

That was me that day. 

Just goes to show - even when you think you're okay and in control, you're probably not.

[chrisjpainter]

A few (er...many!) years ago, a mate and I climbed Snowdon in typical August weather - i.e. tipping it down and a hoolie blowing. That done we then headed south and planned to climb Cader Idris in the afternoon, sleep in the mountain hut and climb down in the morning. We took the scree path, which isn't for the faint-hearted, but I'd done it a number of times and knew it well. Conditions had improved significantly, but we knew a new band of nastiness was on the way. We got to the top and into the hut at about 6pm. By 7pm the fog descended and visibility was down to a literal 10yds.

At 8pm these two teenagers blundered in, soaking wet having been lost for an hour. As a map, they had nothing more than a Tourist Information leaflet, a phone that had broken because of the rain, a keyring torch and 17 cans of lager. They stayed the night and in the morning the fog was still just as bad. We asked them if they knew where they were going and they hadn't a clue, so we took them down the normal path following our OS map and the cairns, about which one said 'oh we noticed the piles of rocks, but didn't really know what they were for.' They had no idea how lucky they'd been for that hour when they were lost. Cader's got some nasty drops, and the path's not clear in places. A wrong turn and it'd have been curtains.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by chrisjpainter

[Scully]

3 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

You make a good point. I don't think we should be legislating to the lowest intellectual common denominator. It doesn't help with people being able to risk assess for themselves. Better education and not taking the British outdoors for granted would be a good place to start. Or even something like a traffic light system at all mountain access points: 

Green: the mountain's at its safest,

Yellow: some dicey bits, with dubious weather and best left to those with reasonable experience

Red: Dangerous. Do not attempt without serious levels of experience and equipment.

That way it's just information, the call is still yours, but you'd be under no illusions as to the dangers awaiting you.

Agreed. It would be a place to start. 
I grew up in and around the Lake District, and still live right on its periphery.
I think once restrictions are set in place you close the door on those who perhaps just want to go for a wander on a leisure basis; not everyone can afford to join the Helly-Hanson or Berghaus club, and not everyone wants to. There are many who just want to go for a wander on the Fells. There are many people who already regard the Lakes as an elitist, wealthy persons playground. 

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, hedge said:

It's very easy when you are so well informed, to critique the less informed.

Your whole post is very good. 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Agreed. It would be a place to start. 
I grew up in and around the Lake District, and still live right on its periphery.
I think once restrictions are set in place you close the door on those who perhaps just want to go for a wander on a leisure basis; not everyone can afford to join the Helly-Hanson or Berghaus club, and not everyone wants to. There are many who just want to go for a wander on the Fells. There are many people who already regard the Lakes as an elitist, wealthy persons playground. 

Your right, but a waterproof coat and boots should be basic for going up mountain climbing,  well walking.

This weekend you would have looked like you were dressed for Everest.

[Davyo]

If there's not a cake shop at the top I'm not going! I wont even go up the road to the Co op in this weather lol

[mel b3]

6 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

A few (er...many!) years ago, a mate and I climbed Snowdon in typical August weather - i.e. tipping it down and a hoolie blowing. That done we then headed south and planned to climb Cader Idris in the afternoon, sleep in the mountain hut and climb down in the morning. We took the scree path, which isn't for the faint-hearted, but I'd done it a number of times and knew it well. Conditions had improved significantly, but we knew a new band of nastiness was on the way. We got to the top and into the hut at about 6pm. By 7pm the fog descended and visibility was down to a literal 10yds.

At 8pm these two teenagers blundered in, soaking wet having been lost for an hour. As a map, they had nothing more than a Tourist Information leaflet, a phone that had broken because of the rain, a keyring torch and 17 cans of lager. They stayed the night and in the morning the fog was still just as bad. We asked them if they knew where they were going and they hadn't a clue, so we took them down the normal path following our OS map and the cairns, about which one said 'oh we noticed the piles of rocks, but didn't really know what they were for.' They had no idea how lucky they'd been for that hour when they were lost. Cader's got some nasty drops, and the path's not clear in places. A wrong turn and it'd have been curtains.

 

 

As a teenager , I reckon I could have done everest with 17 cans of lager and a wooly hat 😅.

Mountains can catch you out at any time of year , so you need to carry everything just in case . My main problem when going up any mountain was sweating , my clothes would be soaking wet by the time I got to the top ,and as soon as I'd stop walking,  I'd start freezing ,I learned that no matter how cold it was at the top ,  I had to strip my top half and put on dry clothes.

I vaguely remember passing an Indian family on our way back down snowdon , their only waterproof gear was the carrier bags that they'd put over their socks to keep their feet dry 😊.

Edited to add .

Me and the kids were once on the way back down Ben Nevis , we passed a group that looked like jesus and his disciples,  the jesus lookalike was leading the party and was barefoot, he didn't look like he was enjoying things very much , and his feet were in a pretty bad way 😢.

Edited February 11, 2020 by mel b3

[islandgun]

18 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

As a teenager , I reckon I could have done everest with 17 cans of lager and a wooly hat 😅.

Mountains can catch you out at any time of year , so you need to carry everything just in case . My main problem when going up any mountain was sweating , my clothes would be soaking wet by the time I got to the top ,and as soon as I'd stop walking,  I'd start freezing ,I learned that no matter how cold it was at the top ,  I had to strip my top half and put on dry clothes.

I vaguely remember passing an Indian family on our way back down snowdon , their only waterproof gear was the carrier bags that they'd put over their socks to keep their feet dry 😊.

Edited to add .

Me and the kids were once on the way back down Ben Nevis , we passed a group that looked like jesus and his disciples,  the jesus lookalike was leading the party and was barefoot, he didn't look like he was enjoying things very much , and his feet were in a pretty bad way 😢.

The penitents in the west of Ireland walk up Croagh Patrick  barefoot